[Defcon 19] Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

[Ellen]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

I prefer electronic badges. There -- I said it. WOOOO! That felt good. I've been holding that in for a long time.

I didn't hack the electronic badges and I didn't attempt the puzzles this year. It's just decoration for me -- I'm OK admitting that. I like to collect them. I like to hang them in my office and have people ask about DEF CON. My DC 16-18 badges are always a hit when people stop in. Not sure what they'll think of DC 19 speaker/human badges as nobody has come to office in the last week! :-) HA!

Haha! See? That is how you do it. :) I like electronic badges too, and I have never competed in a badge hacking contest either.

I also think Lost did an amazing job with the contest, and I am excited to see Mystery Challenge back next year. I really hope that all of the new attendees who rocked the contest this year will take a crack at MC. You guys were brilliant!

[LosT]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

There was more participation in the badge contest this year than any single event in the past, save possibly Roamer's first War Drive (and then it is a percentage vs numbers argument).

That's not conjecture, it's simply fact.

[FirmWarez]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

There was more participation in the badge contest this year than any single event in the past, save possibly Roamer's first War Drive (and then it is a percentage vs numbers argument).

That's not conjecture, it's simply fact.

And I think that's a good thing in some respects. Since everyone has a badge, making badge "hacking" more accessible and requiring interaction are very positive things.

I liked the badge. I thought the puzzles very cool. That said, I've still got some personal grief over it:

1) With regards to "there's always playing around in the HHV". I'm an embedded systems guy. I can play all the time. The uber electronic badge hack contests where the one place at DC that I could use my "leet skilz" to win. Playing in the village is cool, it's not the same thing as Kingpin talking about my team's work on stage at closing. The rest of my team from previous years did not attend this year, and no contest "for them" was a reason. Yes, I know about the HHV contest, great stuff but not the same thing.

2) More accessible: again, very positive. But I'm not sure I agree with the "because everyone gets a badge they should be able to compete" logic. It's a bit blah. I have a sneaky suspicion that everyone at DC has used a computer. Should CTF be more accessible to them?

I understand why. And I think those are good reasons. I don't completely disagree; I think I'm 99% on board, I just wanted to share my 1% disagree points.

That said I appreciate the technical, academic, and artistic skill and effort that went in to the badge concept this year. I've run competitions before, it's a lot of hard work.

This year's badge and contest were great stuff, fantastic job.

...but I do hope for the day when a chance to #win@DC returns for folks with my set of skills. Doesn't have to be a badge though.

[Ellen]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

...but I do hope for the day when a chance to #win@DC returns for folks with my set of skills. Doesn't have to be a badge though.

Not to get off topic, but that was my thought too. There was a hardware hacking contest in the HHV involving kits that sold for $60 each. It wasn't an official event, so there was no on-stage announcement, but there were prizes.

Something similar could easily be done as an official event. However if no one was willing to sponsor it, participants would be required to buy the base "kit" themselves. Would this discourage people from participating?

[LosT]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

Yes, and there has only been an electronic badge for the past 5 years....

And there hasn't always been a 'badge contest'.....

And there was ROBOT wars.....

I see your points. But the real jist is why do the same thing, over and over? That's why we changed it up. And like it or hate it, we had WAY more participation, and lots of people thanking us for THEM getting a chance to play THIS year. Grass always greener and all that...

If you want electronics AND puzzles, try the Mystery Challenge. It's coming back for one last time. And it required hardware skills as well as everything else- I'd like to think it's one of the most "well rounded" hacker contests around. (Again, depends on how you define the term ...)

BTW, oCTF is open to everyone, so the point about using a computer and competing, is there as well...

[FirmWarez]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

...
I see your points. But the real jist is why do the same thing, over and over?
...
If you want electronics AND puzzles, try the Mystery Challenge. It's coming back for one last time. And it required hardware skills as well as everything else- I'd like to think it's one of the most "well rounded" hacker contests around. (Again, depends on how you define the term ...)
...

Agreed on "same thing"; while I'm not the most outgoing guy around, I've been going to defcon for a long time. A lot of old timers have no idea who I am. I've seen the con change. And, change is good.

And of course the Mystery Challenge is a rock star legend. DC has "well rounded" and hyper focused contests. So I suck, I'm not a mathematician. Yep, I can take your algo and make it happy in a DSP, but math puzzles, while I appreciate them, have never been my strong point. Well rounded is fine, but there are plenty of popular contests that require serious depth in a few categories rather than being well rounded. What I liked about the electronic badge hack contests was that the primary focus was my gig -- and I think I'm not the only one who felt that way.

It's not an attack; nor am I saying "it was better back when". My only points are that 1) personally I really liked the electronics badge contest because (selfishly) it's something I'm decent at and 2) some dc contests are about being elite in a set of skills not everyone has.

I'm looking forward to what will come next year. But come on, if hackers weren't nostalgic for the things of the past (even last year) that we love, that vintage hardware wouldn't have been so prominent in the DC19 video.

Again, I'm looking forward to the surprises next year.

[Chris]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

Agreed on "same thing"; while I'm not the most outgoing guy around, I've been going to defcon for a long time. A lot of old timers have no idea who I am. I've seen the con change. And, change is good.

And of course the Mystery Challenge is a rock star legend. DC has "well rounded" and hyper focused contests. So I suck, I'm not a mathematician. Yep, I can take your algo and make it happy in a DSP, but math puzzles, while I appreciate them, have never been my strong point. Well rounded is fine, but there are plenty of popular contests that require serious depth in a few categories rather than being well rounded. What I liked about the electronic badge hack contests was that the primary focus was my gig -- and I think I'm not the only one who felt that way.

It's not an attack; nor am I saying "it was better back when". My only points are that 1) personally I really liked the electronics badge contest because (selfishly) it's something I'm decent at and 2) some dc contests are about being elite in a set of skills not everyone has.

I'm looking forward to what will come next year. But come on, if hackers weren't nostalgic for the things of the past (even last year) that we love, that vintage hardware wouldn't have been so prominent in the DC19 video.

Again, I'm looking forward to the surprises next year.

How about doing 2 contests.
1. Non electronic badge. Puzzle contest similar to this year.

2. Non electronic badge but with kits in the HHV to mod the regular badge to electronic and go to town. I know it's not as "simple" as that...but I think with some planning it could be done and would satisfy both camps. Am I high?

[3d0g]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

If you prefer an electronic badge, there is nothing wrong with voicing that opinion. Shout it out and let DT know. In the future though, don't come here claiming arguments are "laughable" and then make uninformed arguments of your own. ;) Just say you prefer electronic badges. If enough people say that in a non-trolling way, you may get them back.

Jesus Ellen, who pissed in your cheerios? If it's a troll you seek, you only need to check the mirror. Seriously, how can you POSSIBLY equate official DC18 badge hack entries to new 1o57 twitter followers? If you're not up to some intelligent discourse here, please bow out.

This doesn't have to be an either / or proposition. Folks clearly had fun with the puzzles this year, if only vicariously. This years hardware hacking contest was the right approach, but there was damn near zero publicity over it. And a Propeller class? Where was that in the program? Did I miss the official @defcon tweet about it? As for open soldering stations in the HHV? Sorry, you're flat-out wrong. They didn't exist.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

This years hardware hacking contest was the right approach, but there was damn near zero publicity over it. And a Propeller class? Where was that in the program? Did I miss the official @defcon tweet about it? As for open soldering stations in the HHV? Sorry, you're flat-out wrong. They didn't exist.

My response here is not flaming or trolling; it is constructive criticism.

If you want more publicity for HHV (Hardware Hacking Village) Contests, I would suggest submitting a paper to Pyr0 next year when there is a "RFI" for DC20. It is really hard to track down all of the different contests and events that take place outside the contest floor so they can be documented, and such a list is often used to determine what to put into the program, the schedule, online with a forum, linked from the main site, and discussed at the closing ceremonies. However, even having this can lead to contests being overlooked... consider the complaint from the person that earned first place in the short story contest and how this contest was not mentioned in the closing ceremonies -- it was just over-looked, even though it was on the contests/event spreadsheet. Mistakes happen.

Also,find out who provides the write-up for the HHV mention in the program, and see if contests or events at the HHV can be mentioned there.

Certainly, contests taking place in the HHV and the LPV (Lock Picking Village) are not required to submit these papers when an RFI is called, but to get the word out to everyone about these contests located off the contest floor, it would probably be a good idea.

I'm happy to make a new forum for HHV and LPV contests IF they get a nod from Pyr0, even though they are taking place off the contest floor. (We synchronize on the same list.) This suggestion goes for all contests or events even those that take place off-site, if you want to get more publicity and maybe involvement.

Next year, there will be no "Lockpicking Contests" forum; each contest should get their own forum after they get a nod when submitting their papers during the RFI. I asked about specific LPV contests for this year other than gringo warrior, but don't recall getting any response from the organizers.

Now for the part that might be considered flaming or trolling, but is not intended to be either:
In addition to submitting information about contests and events when an RFI is called, people should take care to FOLLOW DIRECTIONS and provide the information requested and SUBMIT IT ON TIME so it has a chance of getting into the program. Such people really should PLAN THIS EARLY and ACTIVELY TAKE PART IN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT to promote these contests or events. (This discussion does not have to be on the forums. It can be on twitter, mailing lists, usenet, facebook, G+ or anywhere, or everywhere!) This also helps to avoid CONTEST/EVENT DUPLICATION caused when people do not hear that something is returning.

I sent out emails and PM asking about the return of the HHV this year like I did for HJ and did not get any response from the previous organizers. Last year? Great responses in fast turn-around for both of these. This year, the only hint I had of the HHV returning was seeing it on the map, and HJ was not confirmed until REALLY late. best guess as to why the organizers of these two "things" at Defcon never replied? They have an anti-spam solution that quarantined or ate these email messages from me to them, because my email looked like spam or my address was filtered/blacklisted. I can't see why they would choose to ignore requests for information on contests or events they are running at Defcon, when they were so on-the-ball with getting information submitted early last year.

Work with the people running the space being used for the contest (like HHV, LPV, etc.) and get them to promote these contests and get the word out so people know about them, and participate in discussions to keep people aware of them. If they get this information submitted early enough, it might make it into the program.

Sorry to complain so much about these issues, but they can all be prevented.

Thanks for reading!

[Ellen]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

Jesus Ellen, who pissed in your cheerios? If it's a troll you seek, you only need to check the mirror. Seriously, how can you POSSIBLY equate official DC18 badge hack entries to new 1o57 twitter followers? If you're not up to some intelligent discourse here, please bow out.

Seriously?

To quote YOU - "I'd hazard that the actual number of people who went beyond looking at the rotunda floor and saying "Hmm, I bet 1o57 has something to do with this..." and truly worked on solving the badge puzzles was comparable to badge hacking numbers of prior years."

I gave you the number of people who signed up to a twitter feed in order to get clues about the badge. THEN I gave you the number of people actually tweeting @1o57 about the puzzles. Both numbers significantly higher than the number of entries in the badge hacking contest last year. Though obviously this is only a representation of the number of people participating in the contest AND using internet on the floor AND using twitter (which certainly doesn't account for everybody participating), it IS a solid number you can look at and say "these are people doing more than looking at the rotunda floor."

You wanted to argue participation numbers, I gave you solid facts that I could easily find on the internet. There was no sign-up sheet for this contest. Everyone was welcome to fire questions and guesses at Lost. Now what are you arguing? Are you trying to define what "counts" as participation? It's apples and oranges. By your own quote above, I am defining participation as people who "truly worked on solving the badge puzzles."

If you are still arguing participation numbers - See the post by Lost on the 11th. If you aren't arguing participation numbers, what point are you trying to make? (Serious question - because you are coming off like you want to argue for the sake of it.)

This doesn't have to be an either / or proposition. Folks clearly had fun with the puzzles this year, if only vicariously. This years hardware hacking contest was the right approach, but there was damn near zero publicity over it. And a Propeller class? Where was that in the program? Did I miss the official @defcon tweet about it? As for open soldering stations in the HHV? Sorry, you're flat-out wrong. They didn't exist.

I think Cot already covered the reason for the lack of publicity. As for the Propeller class, that was an impromptu and extremely generous class that Jon held, and I believe he actually provided everything free of charge to anyone that showed up. (Can someone confirm this?) The best publicity we could get was a mention on the official Defcon feed. It was not an official workshop.

Sorry you weren't able to grab a station in the HHV. What I normally do in this situation is bring my own and donate it for the weekend to the HHV. That way there is one more station for everyone to use, and if I have an urgent need for it I can pull the "It's mine" card. ;) If you can't bring it with you on the plane you can mail it to yourself at the hotel, or to a friend who is driving in. OR.. shop at Frys if you have the cash. :)

[3d0g]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

If you are still arguing participation numbers - See the post by Lost on the 11th. If you aren't arguing participation numbers, what point are you trying to make? (Serious question - because you are coming off like you want to argue for the sake of it.)

Ellen, if you acutally read my post, numbers are exactly what I'm NOT arguing. Any contest, ANY CONTEST, will have a tiny % of total DC populatiobn participating. My point is slamming hardware badges because of lack of actual entries in the contest is silly. There were a LOT of people playing with the badge last year, myself included. Not all felt the need to submit for the contest, myself included.

My OPINION of DC19 is hardware and the HHV got the short stick. My HOPE is, that will change in the future, regardless of badge.

We cool?

[nivin]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

I'm happy to make a new forum for HHV and LPV contests IF they get a nod from Pyr0, even though they are taking place off the contest floor. (We synchronize on the same list.) This suggestion goes for all contests or events even those that take place off-site, if you want to get more publicity and maybe involvement.

Please please please do make a forum for next years HHV, I feel like more people would collaborate about bringing equipment and such. I don't even know if people realized that most of the stations were brought by one hackspace. I know more of us that congregate there would appreciate the forum and hopefully be able to contribute more next year.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

My OPINION of DC19 is hardware and the HHV got the short stick. My HOPE is, that will change in the future, regardless of badge.

I don't think the HHV got, "the short end of the stick." Defcon organizers busted ass to get information out, and in the program. I think there was lack of communication from all organizers involved with describing what it should be, what it would include, how it would run, and promotion of the HHV early enough to get all of the into the program and spark interested. I don't think any of the people that run Defcon, "had it in," for the HHV. Nikita was really supportive of the HHV, but she acts on information she is handed. I *think* she allocated space for the HHV long before they asked for space, and if she had not anticipated their plan to return (as little explicit was provided on this) the HHV may not have even had a room. (Thanks to Nikita and others for being considerate enough to help people that had provided little information on the return of the HHV.) The only confirmation I received on the return of the HHV came when another person that attends Defcon brought this up with Lost who was standing next to them, and relayed the answer that the HHV was returning. (I think that was in mid-June.) That is when I made a forum for it. Back inn January, February, March and April, people were commenting on blogs and twitter about how there was no word of the HHV returning to DC19. Some people even planned events with the idea it might not be there. Others decided against projects they would start several months ago because there was no word of the HHV returning.

In my opinion, the HHV was offered more consideration that other returning villages. The other villages managed to get the word out, and inform people of their plans early. The Skytalks were well run, and well organized by BluKnight. DaKahuna did a great job of keeping the Wireless Village running. Toool, Deviant Ollam and all of the volunteers of the LPV did a good job letting people know they were going to return so planning could begin early.

To see the HHV do well next year, you and other volunteers should urge the organizers to start early and promote events at the HHV. If this happens, I expect the HHV would be even busier than it was this year, with even more people interested in it and the projects provided. You might even see more volunteers stepping forward with ideas, who instead gave up in January, February, March and April when there was no indication the HHV was even going to happen.

Maybe Russ and Lost need a third member to help them with running the HHV by giving them authority to make decisions about it, and submit paperwork on-time. I know they are both really busy most of the year, and they get even busier as Defcon approaches. They may not have even had an email filtering or spam-markup problem with email to them... they may have just had too many emails to answer, and this caused other emails messages to get skipped.

No short end of a stick. If you are a volunteer for the HHV, get in there and promote it, discuss it, encourage others, present talks in the HHV. Make sure people know of the plans, and any schedule of talks or demos. If you have done all of these, then awesome! That is really, really great! :-D

Please please please do make a forum for next years HHV, I feel like more people would collaborate about bringing equipment and such. I don't even know if people realized that most of the stations were brought by one hackspace. I know more of us that congregate there would appreciate the forum and hopefully be able to contribute more next year.

Sorry to be an ass, but I don't know all of the organizer of the HHV, and as a result, I don't know if you are an organizer of it, or a volunteer, or something else. Because of this, I won't take action on your request unless someone else I know confirms you are an organizer. Historically, the people that have contributed to getting it started by filling out the RFI and information for the program have been LoST[boy], Russ, and maybe Neural, though I may be wrong on neural, as it has been a while since I have seen him at Defcon. If you are an organizer for the HHV, sorry about not knowing you. If you can get Russ, or Lost to reply to this thread saying they are bringing back the HHV for DC20, then I can roll a forum for it out when all of the other DC20 contests/events mentioned in that thread are rolled out. (Lost already stated his intention to bring back badges, and the mystery challenge so forums for both "Badge" and "Mystery Contest" are slated for creation, once the DC20 contests/events roll out. Having a forum would tell everyone of the intention to bring it back, so when January 2012 rolls up, people will see this intention and make plans accordingly. (Another example of this was Defcon Robots run by kallahar... a HUGE lead time of several months was needed by teams that wanted to compete. He understood this, and was often one of the first to sign-up to say he planned to bring his contest back the following year, so teams could prepare.) If you can convince Lost or Russ to add you as an authority for the HHV for DC20, and announce this somewhere, then I can take your word on this, and you can post in that thread about its return, and in doing so, get a forum for it as soon as the DC20 forums roll out.

Thanks for reading!

[3d0g]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

I don't think the HHV got, "the short end of the stick." Defcon organizers busted ass to get information out, and in the program. I think there was lack of communication from all organizers involved with describing what it should be, what it would include, how it would run, and promotion of the HHV early enough to get all of the into the program and spark interested. I don't think any of the people that run Defcon, "had it in," for the HHV.

Yeah, I didn't at all mean to imply fault. Hell, I'm 303, worked Skytalks, and even we didn't get our schedule nailed down in time for the program.

I'm just personally hoping future HHV can be more approachable and possibly have proper contest visibility again. Whether said contest(s) revolve around a badge really doesn't matter IMO.

To see the HHV do well next year, you and other volunteers should urge the organizers to start early and promote events at the HHV. If this happens, I expect the HHV would be even busier than it was this year, with even more people interested in it and the projects provided. You might even see more volunteers stepping forward with ideas, who instead gave up in January, February, March and April when there was no indication the HHV was even going to happen.

You nailed this one on the head. I was originally planning on coming to 19 with all my kit - o-scope, solder and reflow gear, and a ton of random parts for helping folks get more into badge hacking. When I saw there was no electronic badge, and not even mentions of the HHV that I could find until the floor maps came out, I chickened out and brought nothing.

Hopefully the organizers will request a forum for next year's HHV. Sounds like a great way to round up more volunteers like myself and spread the workload.

Cheers.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Who is designing the DEFCON 19 badge?

Yeah, I didn't at all mean to imply fault. Hell, I'm 303, worked Skytalks, and even we didn't get our schedule nailed down in time for the program.

Ah. Sorry about mis-understanding. I thought, "given the short end of the stick," was a comment about defcon planning shorting the HHV planning.

Sorry about that.

As for an, "atta-boy," the Skytalk schedule was at least published on the forums, promoted in twitter,and I think re-tweeted with link to schedule by the @_defcon_ account. People could actually see what would be presented at SkyTalks if they were interested in it enough to to look it up before they went to Defcon.

Additionally, BluKnight continued to update (or ask for updates) to the schedule in the forums. (I've nominated him to be a "Forum Leader/Organizer" for the DC20 "SkyTalks." The process takes about a week, and if completed, will permit him to edit such threads in the future Skytalk forum well beyond the 24-hour window regular users are allowed to edit. HE would also be able to set/unset stickies, open/close threads, move posts from threads to streamline discussions and more, but NOT act as a moderator, and NOT enforce rules or ban users. That should help him next year.) Also, Pyr0 and BluKnight confirmed in twitter that SkyTalks will return, which is why I added it to that thread for them.

I was originally planning on coming to 19 with all my kit - o-scope, solder and reflow gear, and a ton of random parts for helping folks get more into badge hacking. When I saw there was no electronic badge, and not even mentions of the HHV that I could find until the floor maps came out, I chickened out and brought nothing.

The user [Syntax] (ran the GeoCaching contest, previously worked on Toxic BBQ Tee Shirts) had plans to offer classes for Arduno projects when there was no indication the HHV was going to be at DC19. I doubt he would have made that decision if it was known the HHV was going to be at DC19.

Thanks for clarifying what you meant, and sorry that I mis-understood.

Cheers!
-Cot