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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
Yea that memo is pretty clear. I think compromise is good. Hopefully DT agrees - its his show. If not <----look back Its his show.
He needs to protect investment time etc. nothing wrong with that. Take Nikita's comments for what they appear to be, a friendly warning/suggestion about DC20.
Give it some time and thought and I would hope DT would come up with a fair compromise. Might even jump in here and give his 2 cents and not keep it in the back room.
Don't like it - leave, don't come to the con, stay in the hotel, only go to the parties - or try to be constructive - and look at the reality of the situation. Its his Con.
Defcon is more than Boobs, Melons, sticks or stones..but I think there can be a middle ground. I prefer the cards personally, but can see why others might not - and why the owner may not. Ill get my boob-age outside the con.
These events are very popular and do involve lots of Boobs among other things.
Burningman Aug 29 - Sept 5
Sturgis Motorcycle Rally August 8-14
I would say having been to both, both have had their fun reduced over the years as they have grown, yet still are VERY popular.
+++ Dallas +++Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
OK. Now everyone bring it in, time to hug and make up =PComment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
I tried to keep it clean, but you have forced my hand.
Everyone bring it in for a game of hide the weener. (requires no arms)Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
Where are we now?
Established:
* It is possible to restrict speech and expression of goons as part of a contract where a person can choose to not be a goon, or not be offered an opportunity to return as a goon. (End game for both sides: quit/terminate-work.)
Card status:
* Claim also validated by two or more witnesses: DT says no more Goon Bribe Cards, ever.
Proposals to make it happen next year, anyway:
* Goons distribute the same card next year
* * With risk that those involved may be stripped of being a goon, or warned, lectured, penalized, put on probation, or receive some sort of penalty.
* Goons create a less objectionable card replacement and
* * Use it without asking, with expected risks
* * Get an ok from their department head? DT? A council of elders? The StoneCutters Guild? (How widely known is the existence of the Defcon Chapter of StoneCutters? Should I not have mentioned it?)
* Community (non-goon) makes and distributes the same cards or new cards
* * Risk for security goons to get blamed and penalized even if they have nothing to do with it.
* * Risk of being penalized at Defcon if the policy of restriction is also applied to humans
* * Risk for being kicked out of Defcon if the policy of restriction is also applied to humans
* * Risk of being banned from Defcon if the policy of restriction is also applied to humans
* Don't use any cards anymore
* Complain about the policy with hopes that DT reverses or changes this policy/decision.
There have to be more solutions to this since this is a hacker conference.Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
As I remember it, Nikita, you posted on your PERSONAL twitter, unassociated with DefCon other than your personal known connection as a mouthpiece, a link to a different con that had posted a "code of conduct" vis a vis sexual harassment and stated you agreed with it. You then mentioned, acting as a mouthpiece but unofficially(personal twitter instead of defcon twitter), that Defcon felt the same way. This may have not been the best idea at the time, IMHO. It was a sort of "jumping off" point for the ensuing shit storm.
As I said, this in turn created a shit storm of extremely vocal women, three specifically, that complained, specifically, about the Scavenger Hunt last year and our Ninja Badge Quicktime Boob challenge. Among other things you were accused of being a hypocrite regarding Defcon not allowing sexual harassment, scavenger hunt encouraging it, and were told Defcon should pre-approve the Hunt list and ban anything questionable. Your response to this particular piece of the twitter verse bash was to state that the Hunt is NOT a Defcon event, is not run by Defcon, and Defcon does not attempt to guide any decisions made by the Hunt by any other means than polite request. You thoughtfully provided the Scavenger Hunt twitter address as well.
You and I did exchange a couple of emails in which you did politely request a ban and I politely declined but we compromised and at Con this year the Hunt tried to be effectively gender neutral as much as possible. It was easy and was a decent compromise, IMHO. We still got to see boobs and we had no one come to the table to complain nor have we heard any backlash from Con staff regarding us and boobs.
You also tried very hard on Twitter to state that you personally had no problem with boobs and that if any attendee had an issue that felt like sexual harassment to them they were to take it up with a Goon to enable Defcon staff to deal with the issue or with the staff of the specific event that may have caused the harassment so they can deal with the issue.
You made a good point about the separation of DefCon staff and volunteer contests and events but I do feel that may have added to the "muddiness" of who and what "represent" Defcon vis a vis responsibility. We are the "Defcon Scavenger Hunt" yet we are NOT Defcon Staff. Many other events are like that. "DefCon Goons" are an established official Defcon Staff role yet they are also volunteer. It seems to me that the main issue in this thread is the confusion from human attendees regarding official and unofficial groups that both use "defcon" as part of their identity and how much any of those groups, Goons, Contests, etc are connected to the image of Defcon and therefore DT himself. This confusion can have a direct impact on how much flak may or may not come back at Defcon and DT directly in my own opinion.
Paid staff, fyi, will always comply with restrictions a lot easier than volunteer staff. Just saying. :-)"They-Who-Were-Google are no longer alone. Now we are all Google."Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
Look, it's as simple as this:
You have volunteer security staff who spend pretty much 20 hours a day working. Those who work the day shift, spend the night shift helping out at parties, those who work the night shift show up early and answer questions, hang out in the smoking area and make friends, or do everything they can to help out con.
And you want to punish them for this?
Give me a break, maybe it's time to actually reward the Goons, beyond a thanks at closing, these guys work their asses off, off or on shift, they are always on duty. A badge and a bed doesn't cut it when the whole weekend ends with a swim and a dinner. A lot of those guys have good jobs, and if you went time for money and went room (100 a night, times 3) a badge (150) and a dinner (100 per person) you come down to less than 10 bucks an hour, for what? Taking crap, helping drunk kids to bed, and at the end of it all you get this thread?
If the cards aren't ok, fine, but these guys work their asses off for us, and other than the random beer, the random flash and the random hug, what do they get? Here have a red shirt, a goon badge and we'll see you next year.
How about instead of finding the few things to bitch about, you find a constructive way to say good job but let's improve it next year, or better yet, since it's all volunteers, why don't you find a way to get these guys a day to enjoy con, let them roam as a human for a night, and only make them work 2 days.
As for the sexism, it's never been a required aspect, what we've had in cons past is what we expect in future cons, no one says "bitch flash your tits or you aren't getting in" and if anyone feels pressured, that's on them. But at the end of the day, you do have a conference that has a lot fo scene whores. I am sorry if your wife isn't one, my wife has had no problems dealing with this.
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Defcon is a party, sure we have talks and we have people who show up just fot those talks, but everyone in the security industry knows what defcon is. And if you get drunk and you get rude, well, it's a party.
Want to change that reputation, up the cost ten times, get more speakers like Moxie, Charlie Miller, and Dan K, then pay your staff, speakers, etc... get rid of the contests, and you have another boring security conference.
Just my thoughts, now back to my regularly scheduled drinking.Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
TheCotMan:
I think that 'restricting goon speech' or 'what's ok to do next year' are not the only points of contention.
There's really not a consensus that 'boobs' on the bribe card can be considered offensive at all. Those who do concede that it could be offensive dismiss it as an illegitimate concern, the fault of the reader, not the author of the card.
I don't believe it is, but if the concern is illegitimate, then obviously no action should be taken against the goon bribe card at all.
maybe I'm dense, I honestly don't see this as about 'punishing' or circumscribing the goons - I see it as being aware of the messaging of defcon, and being sensitive to the viewpoints of the attendees.It's not stupid, it's advanced.Comment
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Re: Goon Bribe Cards
This may be true, and probably is true.
At this "point" consensus is irrelevant.There's really not a consensus that 'boobs' on the bribe card can be considered offensive at all. Those who do concede that it could be offensive dismiss it as an illegitimate concern, the fault of the reader, not the author of the card.
At this point, a decision was made by Jeff that the card should stop at DC19, and should never come back.
We can continue to discuss how we feel about it, but a decision has been made, and how we feel is irrelevant to what has been decided. (We can't yet change historical events.)
Now a consensus on the cards over what is ok and what is not, might be used to convince him to re-consider that decision. It is also possible the decision may be forgotten, but that seems unlikely.
I'm not going to stop people from expressing their opinion on this. That would be bad for many reasons. First, this is a healthy discussion on something people have disagreement, and second as opinions of enough people may cause a revision to a decision.
Ah, no. I see a punishment as having taken place when a decision was made to yank the cards. "You're contributions are 'wrong' or 'not what we want' or 'could harm the image of Defcon' or 'may set the stage for harmful behavior' or 'is disliked by some' or 'perceived as harassment' or '.*'" A new punishment would appear if the same goon card appeared next year even though is was banned by decision.maybe I'm dense, I honestly don't see this as about 'punishing' or circumscribing the goons - I see it as being aware of the messaging of defcon, and being sensitive to the viewpoints of the attendees.
Everyone should feel free to keep complaining about one side or the other or even reach a consensus, but a decision has been made, so unless the complaining from either side can be used to bring a change to the decision that has been made, there will likely be significant risks associated with bringing this card or a replacement back next year.Comment
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