How would you make Defcon 21 better?

[theprez98]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Yeah, we tried this a few years ago and it turns out that it's extremely hard to predict. The greatest thing about most of the Rio rooms is that they're plenty big for people to just hang out in. Only a handful of the biggest talks were full.

Now Track 4 is another issue. CTF and Track 4 should have been swapped. There are NO talks that fit in a small room any more.

Kallahar

When was it tried? What were the results? I'm fairly active on the forums and I recall talking about it on several occasions, but never seeing it put into place.

[kallahar]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Yeah, we tried this a few years ago and it turns out that it's extremely hard to predict. The greatest thing about most of the Rio rooms is that they're plenty big for people to just hang out in. Only a handful of the biggest talks were full.

Now Track 4 is another issue. CTF and Track 4 should have been swapped. There are NO talks that fit in a small room any more.

Kallahar

[theprez98]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

The problem with the convention area itself is that we have capacity to seat everyone, but it's basically a guess as to which talks will be the most popular. For instance, Track 4 was the smallest area but ended up attracting some of the largest audiences for a couple of talks. I know this was not anticipated.
Arclight

This has been suggested before, but maybe it's worth trying, at least on a trial basis: let people "vote" on the talks they want to see ahead of time, and compare the data to turnout. Sure, people will try to break the voting system or otherwise screw with it. Certainly don't rely on this data for critical decisions, but *maybe* it will give the sense of what talks will be popular.

[arclight]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Speaking as someone who played a small part in wrangling everyone this year, I think the venue can handle the number of attendees we had, but the resources don't always get matched up to the needs as well as they could be.

For instance, it seems like there was plenty of entertainment on Friday and Saturday night, spread out in several places to keep crowds and lines down. If whatever was happening next to the convention area was packed, folks had the option of going out to the pool and vice-versa. I felt this worked out pretty well.

The problem with the convention area itself is that we have capacity to seat everyone, but it's basically a guess as to which talks will be the most popular. For instance, Track 4 was the smallest area but ended up attracting some of the largest audiences for a couple of talks. I know this was not anticipated.

Now maybe they should empty 30 minutes apart (less peak traffic, but some people will miss out on a talk they want to see). Maybe we need to have fewer talks and do them in bigger rooms. Perhaps an A/V room should be allocated for people that want to watch a popular talk and can't get a seat.

The next step up in venues is something HUGE like the convention center, and it's hard to get the "community feel" of a hacker con in a place where people have to walk 1/2 a mile from their hotel to the convention floor.

I think there will always be some choke points and a percentage of talks that are just plain overcrowded due to their popularity not being anticipated. We can react pretty quickly to make sure everyone queues up in an orderly fashion and that we're maximizing the number of folks we can seat.

I'd definitely like to hear other creative suggestions.

Arclight

I do believe that Defcon this year was over crowded. This was the first year that I can remember where I haven't been able to attend a normal talk, not one by Kaminsky, but a normal talk because it was full.

I almost think that we need to find a bigger venue (again) and increase the amount of talks and space for said talks. But I also understand the logistical nightmares of this.

As for the badges, and I can't stress this enough, I think it was/is awesome that we are able to purchase extra badges to play with. I would love to this happen every year. Even if there were only X amount of badges for attendance, I would still want to have some badges for purchase after the fact.

[GuloGuloDesu]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

I'm not 100% certain of what was intended, but it looks like they are speaking to the "overcrowded nature" of Defcon and are suggesting a solution to overcrowding is to reduce the number of badges sold, and when the badges run out, don't make or sell any more.

Maybe they will respond on their own to let you know what they intended.

I do believe that Defcon this year was over crowded. This was the first year that I can remember where I haven't been able to attend a normal talk, not one by Kaminsky, but a normal talk because it was full.

I almost think that we need to find a bigger venue (again) and increase the amount of talks and space for said talks. But I also understand the logistical nightmares of this.

As for the badges, and I can't stress this enough, I think it was/is awesome that we are able to purchase extra badges to play with. I would love to this happen every year. Even if there were only X amount of badges for attendance, I would still want to have some badges for purchase after the fact.

[TheCotMan]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

I am unsure how you can say this. On Sunday they were selling "souvenir" human badges at $40 a pop due to the SURPLUS they had. How is that remotely "oversold?"

I'm not 100% certain of what was intended, but it looks like they are speaking to the "overcrowded nature" of Defcon and are suggesting a solution to overcrowding is to reduce the number of badges sold, and when the badges run out, don't make or sell any more.

Maybe they will respond on their own to let you know what they intended.

[eris]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

3. Over sold - As usual the con was over sold and overcrowded again. Solution: Sell X number of badges should be sold (I think it was 16,500 I read this year), after they are gone, that's it. No more. If you don't show up in time to get a badge, tough better luck next year... its Vegas.. take a gamble.

I am unsure how you can say this. On Sunday they were selling "souvenir" human badges at $40 a pop due to the SURPLUS they had. How is that remotely "oversold?"

[wick2o]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Me either. I actually really agree with both of you on this. I've been feeling like we are over extending the talk tracks and being a little too omg look a shiny bauble. I also detest anything longer than 50 minutes unless it's a panel that really justifies it. Some of us on the Review board this year made mention to revisitng the 101/newb track, and I have kept that in mind and plan to try to see it happen in the future, however I don't dictate the content and I can't force the review board and more specifically, DT, to cut back on the level of accepted talks. I do hear you though, and I've heard it for a few years in a row now and I've always agreed. Also, If I had MY Way I would schedule talks to start at 11 and end at 6. That's just ME tho, and try as I might we keep accepting more people so it is what it is.

I also want to do away with other things, maybe try to limit the "special" speakers that are not providing content for the community.

another random idea, that may build on the "less talks" idea. Perhaps it would be wise to accept lest talks and ask some speakers that demand a large attendance to speak twice? This may not be a favorable idea, but I have yet to see it mentioned whenever the crowd/lines complaints come up.

WiK

[Nikita]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

I don't hate this idea. .

Me either. I actually really agree with both of you on this. I've been feeling like we are over extending the talk tracks and being a little too omg look a shiny bauble. I also detest anything longer than 50 minutes unless it's a panel that really justifies it. Some of us on the Review board this year made mention to revisitng the 101/newb track, and I have kept that in mind and plan to try to see it happen in the future, however I don't dictate the content and I can't force the review board and more specifically, DT, to cut back on the level of accepted talks. I do hear you though, and I've heard it for a few years in a row now and I've always agreed. Also, If I had MY Way I would schedule talks to start at 11 and end at 6. That's just ME tho, and try as I might we keep accepting more people so it is what it is.

I also want to do away with other things, maybe try to limit the "special" speakers that are not providing content for the community.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Actually, that was me. But as mine are handmade and expensive, I don't think there's much crossover in sales. Hell, I was even Twitter-vertising for Eric's and TOOOL's sets at the time. The reason mine were in the contest area was that they were at Eddie's art table, as art. I don't recommend it (selling in contest vs. vendor). Sales blew. :)

yeah, your picks are nothing short of gorgeous. they were getting high praise at LockCon this year, too.

what is the current price tag on a set of three or four tools from you, btw?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

advantage to in-person communication, and direct questions and answers with others, is the speed at which questions are asked, and answers provided.

i would agree that this is a particular advantage, but i feel that it's one more well-suited to quality speakers as opposed to people who can't find a full sentence with two hands and a flashlight.

Pushing an idea that the quality of how a presentation is presented as more important than (or as important as) topic and information encourages people to trade substance for entertainment and showmanship or pageantry.

i would say it's as important but not "more" important.

The corollary to my other statement would be: "Have an amazing stage presence but little of substance that you actually want to say? That's great... you're in the right town to find gainful employment in many of this city's fine establishments that need better 10:00 shows. But you don't belong at DEFCON."

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

It's hard to get better without practice, especially for people who are already twitchy around crowds.

i would agree that we all get better with practice over time... but i would disagree that DEFCON, the biggest and arguably one of the most "prestigious" venues for speaking about hacker-ish topics, is not the place for people to come and work through their learning.

up-and-coming stand up comics don't try to get on stage at the Apollo before they've found their voice. they work the back-road comedy dens all across small towns and southern cities, polishing their material, until they are at a point when it's less likely that Sandman Sims will have to chase them off the stage. (or would have had to, now that he's gone)

i'm not saying it isn't wonderful for people to "get their big shot" at DEFCON... and i still admit that it is insanely difficult to put any sort of vetting process in place like what i am describing. but if it were possible somehow, damn, i'd love to see it happen.

(in fact, the only way i see a plan like this working would be to have a requirement that to submit to DEFCON you have spoken at a previous con on some other topic... and that video of this must exist and be up online somewhere. hell, if DEFCON did indeed have a requirement like that we'd need almost a dozen volunteers willing to view such clips and give their feedback to DEFCON. frankly, i'd volunteer to be one of those viewers in a heartbeat. even with all the free time i don't have)

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

I don't hate this idea. But I think it should be three. But one of the tracks should be (like it was up through DC9 (i think)) a Newbie track.

nod. i would support that.

The giant signs which indicate the tracks should be (a) positioned outside of the correct hallways and rooms, heh, and (b) feature photos of Joey, Cereal, and Acid Burn for the Noob, Hacky, and Leet tracks. =P

[GuloGuloDesu]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

In many regards, on this front, we're waaay ahead of you. Don't be surprised if you see something related to this next year.

Sweet, I was completely unaware. Just tell me when and where and I will be sure to drop off my gaggle of Noob's next year.

[HighWiz]

Re: How would you make Defcon 21 better?

Every year it seems that I get stuck with a bunch of first timers or Newbie's. Sometimes it kind of sucks, but most of the time it's okay. Normally I just talk with them, see how much they know, and try and give them advice on a direction or things to check out. A couple years ago I was in the OpenCTF, and I started hopping between teams helping them to solve random puzzles (mainly because I knew they couldn't catch up to my team). This year I hung out with a couple of kids just entering into IT and looking for direction.
So to me I don't necessarily like the idea of a Newbie track. I would much rather see heavy technical tracks that I would personally like to attend. But maybe setting up some other Villages for Newbie's could work. While in the lock pick village I helped out a couple of people that were picking their first locks. In the HHV I helped a couple of people to solder their ports onto their badges, or connect them to a computer for the first time. To me I think the villages are where the community can help to mentor the Newbie's, rather than having specific tracks for them. Things that are more hands on, and can be done in small'ish groups.
Maybe next year the Wireless Village can have a couple of AP's and laptops setup, and show people how to use aircrack or Kismet. The Wall of Sheep this year have short classes on packet sniffing. Maybe a Programming Village could be setup, or a Network Village.

Hell, if someone wants to help me, next year we could setup a small (informal) mentoring session in the Chill Out room, or possibly the Contest area. I may not be adept at programming, but I know a few languages and most of the basics. Or setup some network simulators, or databases, or AP's, HAM radios, reverse engineering, Metasploit, *NIX, etc.. If it turns out well then maybe we come back at DC22 and request space for it. I mean we now have Defcon Kids, what about Defcon Noob's?
Although I do plan on attempting the real CTF next year, if I make that then you're all SOL and on your own

In many regards, on this front, we're waaay ahead of you. Don't be surprised if you see something related to this next year.