Bring Back workshops?

[Dallas]

Can we bring back the workshops? A 1 Day or even several diff 1/2 day ones would be nice.

Volunteering to be involved.

Arduino for one.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

since this discussion is on the table, i'll mention the same points that i and most of the other detractors have raised in the past...

1. half-day in duration is the longest they should be. all day long means pulling folk away from too much of DEFCON. yes, everyone is a grown up and everyone is free to make their own decisions at DEFCON, but that doesn't mean that the offerings can't be tailored to something in the community's best interest.

2. far more important than the first point... the workshops should be totally free for attendees and those running the workshop should get absolutely zero compensation.

if there's a small hardware expense, fine. attendees should be able to purchase kits of parts or whatever else is needed (sold without an aim for profit) and if at all possible i'd say that loaner hardware or free-to-use supplies are nice for folk that can't buy their own new gear. but separate from the issue of hardware for use in the workshop (think of that like a Lab Fee) is the fact that DEFCON is not Black Hat. the people who come here and make it work (from the grunts to the goons to the instructors and those who teach) are all-volunteer and not there to be paid. that kind of a system works because everyone feels like the con treats them equally. they don't feel their labor is being taken for granted because other folk right next to them are similarly not doing work for pay.

I ask you, what am i supposed to tell my whole Lockpick Village staff (which essentially runs "workshops" at DEFCON, too... only they do it repeatedly and constantly, all weekend long, without charging anyone and without getting paid) if they ask me pointed questions, should this sort of a double-standard pop up on the landscape?

[Nikita]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

in short, my answer is I hope not. too many problems and too many insults.

I'd rather see more independently run workshops by hardware, lockpick, and wifi villages do their own thing. I'd really like to see groups making time to meet up and do a project together, like someone post "I want to learn how to build an arduino toilet paper roll twitter feed" or some such device and 5 people say "damn, I do too!" Then one hacker says "well shit, I've done that I'll show you how, how about friday at 2?"

and that should be the end of it.

[HighWiz]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

If people want to "steal" the model from BlackHat. Then that's exactly what should be done for training/workshops.

If you want to have two days preceding the con, dedicated to training/workshops... That's how you make it work.

Running the "training/workshops" concurrently with DefCon is where people that do the villages and other activities start getting ticked.

People that volunteer, may still get ticked off, but at least it's not in their face or competing with them directly.

If, logistically speaking it can't be work out with registration people and the hotel, then it wasn't meant to be. If it can, then you have "DefCon Training" which precedes DEFCON.

At least that's my .02

The only other things that I personally would recommend doing if the above was attempted: Ask the people who run the villages if they want to run a workshop/training during that time period. It's not say you can't have other work shops/training run by other people, but ask the villages first. In my mind, some of them would jump at the chance simply because it would allow them to charge for their training which may help them fund the villages themselves... But, I have been known to be wrong and this may be one of those occasions.

My guess is though, that the severe backlash/nastiness that was incurred when they tried it last time, will make any of those idea's moot.

[wick2o]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

I personally welcome the idea about training in the villages (for free). In fact, If you have something wireless you want to learn how to do, PLEASE post it in the wireless village forum. We will either:

1. Find someone who can do a talk on the subject.
2. Research enough on the topic so that we can teach it.

If you just want to have a wireless bull session (read as a panel you can come and ask any and all wireless questions to). Let us know. The sooner someone expresses interest in something the more likely we can get something scheduled for defcon.

[bombnav]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

Yes in the Hardware Hacking Village we give talks as well have some projects. Last year I arranged for 20 lucky people to get the chance to learn to solder while building a Larson Scanner. We do these things for free. From donated items and out of pocket expenses. That is the true spirit of DEFCON people coming together to learn and it not being a structured class. In the HHV we embrace the open source, no sponsors and its your HHV have fun and share and ask questions. I understand a lot of people have a hard time with that but when you have 5000 people wanting to solder parts on their Defcon badges with 10 soldering irons.. that's just how DEFCON is.. its an experience. Take it in and get involved.

[Dallas]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

I think we should do it. I agree it should be a half day or less than 3 hours. Reguarding costs, also agree - except it can get expensive to haul a few large boxes across country for soldering and such. But really, no "profit" should be derived.

I think there is a difference from the village options where dozens of people show up and you may or may not get a spot, or have it fit to when you are free. Great stuff (dont misunderstand), but if folks could have the opportunity to schedule and guarantee a spot in a class - even for a small fee - they would do it.

I was pissed I didnt get into the wireless class 2 years ago, but on the flip side, some of them were pissed they didnt get into the class I was in microprocessors. As with anything, planning, and showing up prepared are required.

This is not difficult to do, just requires some folks to be given the space and authority to proceed.

I like aurdino, there is no shortage of people who have worked with it and will share, but there is a shortage of dedicated time to talk about it, without having a crowd of varying levels going back in forth. (Village). I would volunteer to teach a intro class - but it would need to include a small fee to cover the basic boards and such. Dont forget, there are people who have never touched one of these who read Make magazine, drooling over it. I suspect there are several topics like this where a person just would like to sit down with 30 - 40 people to go over a project or technology for a few hours (without the crowds).

First come - First serve.
-D

since this discussion is on the table, i'll mention the same points that i and most of the other detractors have raised in the past...

1. half-day in duration is the longest they should be. all day long means pulling folk away from too much of DEFCON. yes, everyone is a grown up and everyone is free to make their own decisions at DEFCON, but that doesn't mean that the offerings can't be tailored to something in the community's best interest.

2. far more important than the first point... the workshops should be totally free for attendees and those running the workshop should get absolutely zero compensation.

if there's a small hardware expense, fine. attendees should be able to purchase kits of parts or whatever else is needed (sold without an aim for profit) and if at all possible i'd say that loaner hardware or free-to-use supplies are nice for folk that can't buy their own new gear. but separate from the issue of hardware for use in the workshop (think of that like a Lab Fee) is the fact that DEFCON is not Black Hat. the people who come here and make it work (from the grunts to the goons to the instructors and those who teach) are all-volunteer and not there to be paid. that kind of a system works because everyone feels like the con treats them equally. they don't feel their labor is being taken for granted because other folk right next to them are similarly not doing work for pay.

I ask you, what am i supposed to tell my whole Lockpick Village staff (which essentially runs "workshops" at DEFCON, too... only they do it repeatedly and constantly, all weekend long, without charging anyone and without getting paid) if they ask me pointed questions, should this sort of a double-standard pop up on the landscape?

[astcell]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

Do the workshops have to end at the end of the day? I mean what if you want to have your team share the load and run five 3-hour workshops with breaks between, running 16 hours? People are still up at 2am so can they have a workshop then if they want one?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

I think we should do it. I agree it should be a half day or less than 3 hours. Reguarding costs, also agree - except it can get expensive to haul a few large boxes across country for soldering and such. But really, no "profit" should be derived.

nod. this is rather easily handled with the understanding that part of the "cost" of these items involves not just their purchase but also their pre-setup and their arrival at DEFCON, etc.

factor what it all legitimately costs and then that becomes the per-kit price. and make it all a line-item list if people want to feel extra assured that they are not lining anyone's pockets. as long as "preparing spools of solder" and "boxing breadboards" doesn't show up as a $1000 item, folk will know that the kits are being prepared and assembled at the lowest possible cost.

[Dallas]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

What would need to happen to move this forward / up for consideration?

[TheCotMan]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

What would need to happen to move this forward / up for consideration?

Best bet? Find a way to resolve the issues mentioned above, primarily on the topic of payment vs. those running villages that do it for free. Also related to this? The idea that Defcon is a "buy one badge and get full access to Defcon events." (Obviously, this does not mean parties that are private, and not official Defcon events.)

Then, after you have a solution to this, sell the idea and how it is different from last year and find a way to attract people to participate as speakers.

Next, address the issues of limited capacity without "even more lines" which may require security goons be present, too. (This is especially important if your plan involved doing this Mon-Wed before Defcon begins... Security already works 4 days, and some attend Black Hat and are unavailable.)

Provide a proposal, and request community feedback on it.

Finally submit it as an idea you would run, how you would run it, and see if it is approved. (Things happen because people run them.)

Suffer through the complaints, and then find ways to improve it, asking for feedback.

Uphill battle, but not impossible. Other things have been stopped and returned after overcoming the inertia of history and experience.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

resolve the issues ... payment ... Defcon is a "buy one badge and get full access ... limited capacity without

my suggestions on this area is to allow the "parts kit" to actually serve as the limiting mechanism for ALL of this, and alleviate these problems in one stroke (as much as is possible.) allow me to explain...

1. parts kits sold at or near cost (cost includes both contents as well as reasonable costs of preparation, packaging, shipping, etc)

2. locked-in number of parts kits sold before the workshop (maybe have extras, but do not sell them beforehand.)

3. workshop is free for ANYONE with a DEFCON badge to enter and sit down.

4. HOWEVER, priority seating is given to those who have a parts kit with them.

5. have a room with like 40 seats at tables. pre-sell 30 parts kits.

6. start letting some people in to the room about 5 or 10 minutes before the start of the workshop... letting in pre-purchased kit folk. as the room starts filling up before the workshop, the first three rows of 10 seats are predominantly occupied by folk with the pre-purchased parts kits. at one minute before start, the seats are anyone's game. up until 1 minute before the start, folk with a parts kit would be given seating priority. (too bad, so sad if they "bump" someone out of a seat who go there earlier but did NOT have a pre-purchased parts kit)

7. the 10 seats at the back are for anyone... just folk who showed up to listen, or folk who looked at the parts list online and bought their own hardware, etc.

8. workshop starts with the front 30 seats filled by pre-purchased parts kit owners (and a smattering of folk who grabbed extra seats when a few parts-kit-purchasers failed to show) and the 10 seats at the back filled by anyone. it is free, after all, to anyone with a DEFCON badge.

9. if a parts kit purchaser shows up late... direct them to the nearest tissue box where they can cry it out. life starts on time. if you haven't learned that then your parents or foster home or Oliver Twist factory foreman should have knocked that into your head.

"Five minutes early is on time, and on time is late."

I realize that not everyone can be raised this way, so hence my compromise idea that one minute early is still ok for people to arrive and get settled if they bought a parts kit.

10. After the close of the workshop, any surplus parts kits can be sold. If coordinators want to be REALLY nice, then they would even accept RETURNS of the parts kits during the workshop (someone who had pre-bought showed up 3 min after the start and there were no empty seats... if the kit is still sealed, organizers can buy it back and to make the late person cry not so hard) in order to bolster this stock.

Folk who want to try the same activity with friends/family later on (or folk who were in the back 10 seats and just took good notes) can buy the kits to take home, etc etc. Same price, since they are sold more or less at cost.

That'd be my best suggestions, feel free to fine tune it to whatever feels right for you.

[Dallas]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

;) - Excellent suggestion as always.

my suggestions on this area is to allow the "parts kit" to actually serve as the limiting mechanism for ALL of this, and alleviate these problems in one stroke (as much as is possible.) allow me to explain...

1. parts kits sold at or near cost (cost includes both contents as well as reasonable costs of preparation, packaging, shipping, etc)

2. locked-in number of parts kits sold before the workshop (maybe have extras, but do not sell them beforehand.)

3. workshop is free for ANYONE with a DEFCON badge to enter and sit down.

4. HOWEVER, priority seating is given to those who have a parts kit with them.

5. have a room with like 40 seats at tables. pre-sell 30 parts kits.

6. start letting some people in to the room about 5 or 10 minutes before the start of the workshop... letting in pre-purchased kit folk. as the room starts filling up before the workshop, the first three rows of 10 seats are predominantly occupied by folk with the pre-purchased parts kits. at one minute before start, the seats are anyone's game. up until 1 minute before the start, folk with a parts kit would be given seating priority. (too bad, so sad if they "bump" someone out of a seat who go there earlier but did NOT have a pre-purchased parts kit)

7. the 10 seats at the back are for anyone... just folk who showed up to listen, or folk who looked at the parts list online and bought their own hardware, etc.

8. workshop starts with the front 30 seats filled by pre-purchased parts kit owners (and a smattering of folk who grabbed extra seats when a few parts-kit-purchasers failed to show) and the 10 seats at the back filled by anyone. it is free, after all, to anyone with a DEFCON badge.

9. if a parts kit purchaser shows up late... direct them to the nearest tissue box where they can cry it out. life starts on time. if you haven't learned that then your parents or foster home or Oliver Twist factory foreman should have knocked that into your head.

"Five minutes early is on time, and on time is late."

I realize that not everyone can be raised this way, so hence my compromise idea that one minute early is still ok for people to arrive and get settled if they bought a parts kit.

10. After the close of the workshop, any surplus parts kits can be sold. If coordinators want to be REALLY nice, then they would even accept RETURNS of the parts kits during the workshop (someone who had pre-bought showed up 3 min after the start and there were no empty seats... if the kit is still sealed, organizers can buy it back and to make the late person cry not so hard) in order to bolster this stock.

Folk who want to try the same activity with friends/family later on (or folk who were in the back 10 seats and just took good notes) can buy the kits to take home, etc etc. Same price, since they are sold more or less at cost.

That'd be my best suggestions, feel free to fine tune it to whatever feels right for you.

[astcell]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

How about parts kits without attendance and folks can check Youtube (or Defcon TV) for instructions....

[Dallas]

Re: Bring Back workshops?

Good option, but some of these can take a long time to go over, and frankly the questions folks come up with are pretty good. But I agree - should be an option.

How about parts kits without attendance and folks can check Youtube (or Defcon TV) for instructions....