DC Shoot Firearms Trust

[Deviant Ollam]

So, i'll say right off the bat that this is likely to be monstrously adventurous. However, it's a conversation I'd like to have here to get input from folk.

Every so often, folk in the community have to sell something off. We all hate to see firearms wind up in the hands of others (unless we know the recipients and know they'll take care of things) and for that reason I'm going to solicit thoughts and ideas on how to create a little something something...

The DC Shoot Firearms Trust - Many of us know about Living Trusts and such which can be used to make ownership of Title-II firearms a lot easier. However, there is no need for something to be full-auto or NFA to be in a Trust. I'm open to the idea of setting up a Trust that could take ownership of donated/sold/inherited/etc items with the aim of:

* Providing an avenue for hackers who want to sell their guns to keep them in the community
* Providing an escape salvation avenue for people in legal trouble who would have to surrender their guns
* Being a source of a lot of hardware that would show up at all future DEFCON Shoots

... let me be clear, this is not just some notion by which i get a lot of free guns or something. If we set this up, there would be a full Board or controlling party who oversees the trust and who monitors budget, etc. All financials would be publicly-disclosed and decisions about what to acquire or not would be handled by vote.

This thread might turn into a whole discussion about all the ways that this is a bad idea. I'm fine with that. I'd welcome it.

But given the fact that the DEFCON Shoot is likely to be something I keep doing long after I've stepped back from most other things I run at DEFCON ever summer, I am looking into ways to increase how it serves the community.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

So, i'll say right off the bat that this is likely to be monstrously adventurous. However, it's a conversation I'd like to have here to get input from folk.

Every so often, folk in the community have to sell something off. We all hate to see firearms wind up in the hands of others (unless we know the recipients and know they'll take care of things) and for that reason I'm going to solicit thoughts and ideas on how to create a little something something...

The DC Shoot Firearms Trust - Many of us know about Living Trusts and such which can be used to make ownership of Title-II firearms a lot easier. However, there is no need for something to be full-auto or NFA to be in a Trust. I'm open to the idea of setting up a Trust that could take ownership of donated/sold/inherited/etc items with the aim of:

* Providing an avenue for hackers who want to sell their guns to keep them in the community
* Providing an escape salvation avenue for people in legal trouble who would have to surrender their guns
* Being a source of a lot of hardware that would show up at all future DEFCON Shoots

... let me be clear, this is not just some notion by which i get a lot of free guns or something. If we set this up, there would be a full Board or controlling party who oversees the trust and who monitors budget, etc. All financials would be publicly-disclosed and decisions about what to acquire or not would be handled by vote.

This thread might turn into a whole discussion about all the ways that this is a bad idea. I'm fine with that. I'd welcome it.

But given the fact that the DEFCON Shoot is likely to be something I keep doing long after I've stepped back from most other things I run at DEFCON ever summer, I am looking into ways to increase how it serves the community.

Steps to organize your trust on the forums is fine, but nothing specific about models available for exchange , sale, donation, trade on the forums. All of these are too close to making the forums into a comercialized social network or party to a transaction. Once formed, no announcements of trust availability, just like we don't want people posting ads from amazon about their latest book. Answering questions about the trust (not about specific inventory or specific weapons) on the forums is probably fine. Including a link in your sig to a trust web site is also probably ok. It is also probably ok for you to include a comment about the trust in posts that describe the DC Shoot, signup process, and more as a part of the many things that take place with the shoot, and to help people with enjoying use of firearms. Encourage anyone interested in the trust on the forums to not post in public any questions about specific inventory. Maybe they could use PM, or you could exchange email and take discussions off the forums.

It would make my life much easier if we had a forum specifically for advertising, then I wouldn't be the guy squashing speech. (This idea has been proposed before, and is always voted down.) It feels wrong to be one of the people that decides "oh, this is 'acceptable' advertising, but this other thing, 'is not approved by the collective," but that is what we have. Our democracy of opinion has told us by example what is "too commercial" and not acceptable, so as a rule given to us by our many members and peers, we do our best to try to decide what "our people" would want to know about, and what they would consider spam; and every decision made is "wrong" in someone's eyes.

Any other mod/admin is free to counter or refine the above comment if they have other thoughts. I am fine with arguing in public or private with them, and good arguments and reasons to support them could change my mind. Lack of response likely indicates their agreement or lack of strong disagreement.

I applaud the stated reasons you have for creating a trust. Good luck!

-Cot

[seeess]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

It would make my life much easier if we had a forum specifically for advertising

If it is also a private forum, does that help? It should cut down on spam or things close to spam, since the audience someone may hope to reach to push their ad is very limited.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

If it is also a private forum, does that help? It should cut down on spam or things close to spam, since the audience someone may hope to reach to push their ad is very limited.

Making such a forum private and user-joinable was previously proposed (a forum like /dev/random is now, which new users can opt-in to see, or opt-out) but this was also a non-starter.

The /dev/random space has the least number of rules of all forums:
* Nothing illegal
* No politics/religion
* No Advertising

It was an experiment to see how it might work, and the results are mixed.... not negative enough to close it, but not positive enough to spawn similar forums.

It is a good idea, though, just not good enough to sway opinions.

We even had a suggestion for a similar forum to help people with companies looking for "hackers" to join their work-force find employees on the forums, another kind of ad-space specific to HR, but that too had other issues and complications, which prevented it from moving beyond an idea to test. Now, this as an idea is mostly redundant, as people can join "linkedin" and claim association with DEF CON as a group in their public profile, or not, and recruiters can use their built-in tools to find people with the skills they want -- we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

[FirmWarez]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

Thanks Cot for keeping us in line. Considering that in some way I'm at fault for this idea, I'll be sure to stay on topic and avoid any advertising issues.

I've shared my thoughts with Deviant, but to keep the discussion going I'll add them here.

This is crazy good. It's out there, different, but exactly the sort of thing this community can pull off like no other.

For this to be successful:

1) The board has to be made up of awesome people like Deviant.
2) The board _must_ have a lawyer.
3) Trust should probably be formed in Nevada. Good gun laws, and, well, duh.
4) Storage space? Are there awesome safe deposit boxes in Vegas? We know there are, but cost etc?
5) People are going to be scared of liability. Hence the second item in this list. Honestly I think the liability for something like this could be less than the shoot in general.
6) Exit strategy: lawyer dude must create a solid dissolution agreement -- weapons to be sold on open market/auction and proceeds donated to cause x or whatever. This has to be part of the initial agreement to avoid issues later.

The thing is for those of you who don't know, this idea rocks when it comes to NFA weapons, like my M203. If a private person owns an NFA item, they personally have to "maintain control" of the weapon. Only that person can have the key/combo to the safe, they have to "maintain control" -- physically be there -- if someone else is handling the gun. This even applies to spouses -- if your SO owns a machine gun, you can't go shoot it without them there, or you are in possession of a title II firearm which hasn't been transferred to you.

On the other hand, if an artificial entity owns an NFA weapon, then the "maintain control" requirement extends to any board/corporate member. That's how places like the rent a machinegun range in Vegas work -- the weapons are owned by the corporation, a corporate officer is present any time they are used, it's all kosher. Like Deviant said, if we can pull this off, it would allow for a nifty range of stuff to be available every year.

To me, the down sides are:
1) Liability -- but see above. I don't think this is as big an issue as most folks would think.
2) Talent search -- the board has to be awesome people who are both willing and able to handle this stuff.
3) $$$

3 is the kicker, isn't it? Without violating the rules here, I'm on the bad side of the cash thing right now, more about selling than buying. For this to work there need to be angels.

Other minor issues -- cleaning and maintenance. Your single shot shotgun might just need a bore brush and a rub down every now and then, but belt-feds are _machines_ that sometimes require TLC. And improper maintenance could lead to the degradation of what could end up being an impressive financial block.

My time and life are all over the place right now, so I don't know how much I'll be posting here. So I'll say it now: I don't know if I'll be at DC or the shoot this year. It is completely a "I don't know" kind of situation. I do have a room reserved at the Rio, but I don't know if I'll be there, and if I'm there, I don't know if I'll be flying solo or not. I've always enjoyed the shoot, and if I don't make it this year I will be completely bummed. Some seriously fantastic people out there, and the contrast of being in the desert before shifting to con mode is always awesome. Plus a couple of years ago there was footage caught and published in that film thing of me in my natural habitat -- fscking with a machinegun.

Rock on, and wish me luck.

[Th3Pr0ph3t]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

I've been looking at setting up a trust for my own firearms... and for getting suppressors (less paperwork). I love this idea. I remember someone was wanting to sell a handgun at the shoot last year. This would a great asset to the community and I would like to help out.
Other states to consider would be Wyoming and Texas. I live in Wyoming and love the gun laws here. Multiple class 3 gun stores within walking distance of my home.

FirmWarez great list of items to make this successful! However some paranoia comes up when I read about using safe deposit boxes. Safe deposit boxes can be safe, however the physical control is not directly controlled by the trust. safe(s) in the control of the trust would be preferred in my opinion. Having multiple locations with the contents dispersed would also make sense.... Each location would be managed by one or more of the "of awesome people". Maintenance would then be divided up and shared this way as well.

Devaint - A company (non profit) could work. This way expenses for maintenance, paperwork, transporting firearms to the shoot, etc.. could be tax deductions (cost of business). Any profits could then be given to the hacking community.

Allowing community members to buy back their firearms would also be a great idea. This way if someone can afford to buy their weapon back they can do so at no to little cost.

As far as money goes this could possibly be posted on a site such as kick starter (account managed by the lawyer).

Just my two cents...


Its my intention to volunteer again and I think I'll camp out this year. I'll bring back my SCAR, seemed to be a popular firearm last year.

[TheCotMan]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

[chop]
3) $$$

3 is the kicker, isn't it? Without violating the rules here, I'm on the bad side of the cash thing right now, more about selling than buying. For this to work there need to be angels.
[chop]

If you decide to go forward with the idea, you could always create a site for it, discuss the purpose and reason for it on the site, setup a charity for it, and then create an announcement on the forums, explaining what it is, how it works, the goal, purpose, and how it may help people of DEF CON and attendees of the DC Shoot, and people that might want to join and attend, and then direct people to your site.

The more you make a post about how this helps people of DEF CON, the DEF CON community, and the less it is made about "give us money because we know how to spend it" the better it will be received. (I'm not saying any of you have tried the approach of: "give us money because we know how to spend it" -- this is meant to provide a counter-example and polar opposite of community relevance.)

Once on your site, you could advertise the charity aspects and ask for money on your site as much as you want.

I think this *should* keep the advertising, and requests for cash off the forums, but let people interested in the purpose, reason and cause, visit your site, and then see what it takes to get it going.

I can't describe it other than providing examples, and I doubt other mods can quantify what beats a threshold, and sometimes I have to ask other mods, because I don't know for sure, but there are and have been exceptions to this "advertising" on the forums:
* Musical artists, talent, DJs have used the forums to announce their interest in playing, producing, spinning, or demonstrating their skill, and many provide samples of their work for download (a kind of advertising) or links to their site (advertising) or solicit requests for support in being accepted (advertising).
* The many EFF fund-raisers : these are blatant advertising examples where people are asking for money (advertising)
* Be The Match and BloodKode : these are other kinds of charities and advertising
* Eddie the Yeti : His artwork on display and for sale : this is also a kind of advertising
* DEF CON Artwork Contest : This is art on display which advertises various artists skills and is also a kind of advertising
* DEAF CON announcement of purpose, reason, and with their plans and tasks, a link to crowd-fund and accept donations (advertising)

I am well aware of the amount of things we have here which are advertising, but if you examine each of the above cases, they are strongly attached to DEF CON as things a majority of people in the community seem to want or be tolerant of reading about on the forums. I don't think I have seen ANY complaints about these as advertising on the forums. It could be that people fear complaining, but more likely, these do not bother them "enough" or they consider these as "on-topic" and worthy of exception.

Almost all of the above were added through mod or admin exception to the "no advertising" rule.

I still have no qualitative list of things I or other mods/admins use to decide if an example of advertising would be welcome or at least tolerated, and even when we have exceptions, we want those exceptions to move their money and product or service exchanges to not take place in public forums.

I have plenty of things to provide non-subjective description for what WOULD be a rule violation:
* Thread with only purpose to ask for money, goods, services, donations
* Thread with only purpose to advertise goods, or services
* Any post that almost everyone would classify as spam (especially, off topic: Bonarhsz pillszerz (viagra, Cialis, etc.))

If you want an opinion about a post being too commercial, get a mod to review it, and see if they think it looks too spammy. When you craft your suggestion, making it as relevant to DEF CON as possible is your best chance at getting a nod from someone. If any mod gives you a nod saying your suggested advertisement is not "too spammy" you are good to go. Any mod can grant exception to break any rule.

You could also gamble, and try to post an advertisement and accept the consequences if any mod finds it is too spammy.

HTH,
-Cot

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

If this happens, it would likely happen slowly... but I like getting the input, etc.

Almost the only way that this would be possible, at least initially, is if a lawyer were to donate his or her time in the help of setting things up. Fees are one thing (and could be paid for by those willing to chip in at the start) but billable hours... those add up fast and we'd want to avoid that.

I'm thinking complimentary membership in the Trust would be one benefit that a lawyer working pro bono would receive.

[seeess]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

Having the trust in NV might also make sense for 5320.20's. You can fill those out to move SBR/SBS/DD/MGs out of state, but you usually have to check that the firearm is returning to the original location within a year.

For liability the lawyer will know best, but I use umbrella insurance. A million dollar policy is somewhere around $150/year for me.

You'll probably have better ideas for fundraising, but people may be more willing to donate their computing power by mining an alternative currency for us than giving dollars directly. You won't become rich doing this, but it may be an easier way for people to donate, though it complicates taxes potentially.

[FirmWarez]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

For liability the lawyer will know best, but I use umbrella insurance. A million dollar policy is somewhere around $150/year for me.

Apparently I'm a 300% higher risk than you are. :D I know I was doing something right.

[seeess]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

Apparently I'm a 300% higher risk than you are. :D I know I was doing something right.

I think it is heavily tied to your car insurance limits, and location. Since it has something to do with the gap between where your car insurance ends, and where umbrella insurance picks up.
But I clearly don't understand all the details.

[Rewt Daemon]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

As a non-US DEFCON Shoot enthusiast I am very keen about this idea, assuming it could be legally opened to those of us from outside of the country.

Exporting a firearm (never mind several) out of my home country and into the US is not trivial and getting it back home almost impossible... and my better half is forever wanting to fly in through NYC (spending a weekend there) or LA. Both of which make it impossible to even consider.

Just the idea that I could 'donate' a firearm to this Trust that I could be a member of and have access to a firearm for the DEFCON Shoot without having to jump through the hoops required to get a firearm there... man! Is this actually something we can do?

[seeess]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

and my better half is forever wanting to fly in through NYC (spending a weekend there) or LA. Both of which make it impossible to even consider.

(Slightly off topic) It shouldn't be impossible if you don't spend the weekend there, the same law that banned new machine guns also allows you to transport your firearm through unfriendly jurisdictions, assuming you are passing through (which wouldn't be the case in your scenario).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm...e.22_provision


Though a ruling late last year says they can still be dicks about it.
http://www.law360.com/articles/47284...scate-firearms

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

the only way this goes forward is if a proper lawyer wanted to set things up with us and do it pro bono. if someone in the community is willing to donate their time, i could see it. beyond that, this is just a fun idea that is tabled for now.

[cthulhucalling]

Re: DC Shoot Firearms Trust

I know a local gun-friendly lawyer out here in Vegas that does trusts like this. I can't guarantee that he'll do it pro-bono, he might, or at least do it for a reduced fee.