DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

[The Dark Tangent]

Hey everyone in the "down season" I am reevaluating all the services DEF CON offers and I want to ask for feedback.

The thinking goes something like this:
We communicate with the community through several different services that we host, the pic server, the forums, web site, and the way we communicate with groups, etc.

These are starting to be long in the tooth, and before I research and update to new versions I think we should take stock and decide if we should be doing things differently.

For example: The pics server: The server software is a) old and b) busted. We need a smoother way to share out our photos and receive photos from attendees. Maybe outsource with a paid subscription to a photo sharing site? Research and purchase the current hotness and host it ourselfs?

The forums: Solid and reliable, but maybe a little 2005. In a social media age of twitter and facebook it is functioning mostly as a Goon-to-Goon communication tool. If we want to expand the conversations to the wider community, what’s the best platform for that? I've looked at software such as VaultWiki that combines with VB and gives you a hybrid forum+wiki experience so if you want to capture knowledge you can.

With the forums we've tried for years directing people to the forums to talk about past presentations, but that doesn't seem to happen. We have forums for all the various groups, but they get very little action as well, dispite us having many active DCG chapters all over the world.

This makes me think maybe we should slim down what we support on the forums so it is easier to maintain, or we try something new?

Groups: Currently a subsection in the forums, and not especially well attended or updated. We want the groups to get more support and focus from our end, and one thing that might help is a space of their own. We could spin out a second [wiki, forum, website, etc] just for groups to make it their own space and see if that increases participation.

Social Media: We currently use facebook, twitter, linkedin, g+, and YouTube . I'm planning to discontinue linkedin because it doesn't seem to fit with our image, it is a pain to moderate, and is essentially a "me too!" situation where there are already a thousand other security related groups there. g+ is more of an experiment to see if it is viable for doing streaming meetups. YouTube is more about content distribution so not really a community - not sure if it could be, though.

Nikita brought up a good suggestion of more engagement with reddit/r/defcon, maybe replace LinkedIn with reddit?

Are there other sites we should participate in or drop out of?

All suggestions and feedback are welcome, and I'm hoping for a wider ranging conversation about community building and support in "modern" times.

The Dark Tangent

[astcell]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

So many places these ideas can go. There was a time when the users chased us, now we are chasing them.

Everyone uses apps. I search the app store for DEFCON and I get "Nuke Commander Lite." We need an app because everyone uses apps. Heck even Windows 8 uses apps. An app may not be optimal for us, but it's what the users want and have. And not just an m. interface, but a real live app.

The DEF CON HACKER TRACKER had over 10,000 downloads and it is only an electronic version of the paper schedule. Imagine if there was more in it. Keep it sleek and fast. Link to the next DEF CON, click here to reserve the hotel room, download the hotel map, link to Vegas contacts and transportation, update as needed with CFP, speakers, events, and so on. have a countdown on the front page of the app for how many days or hours or seconds until the next DEF CON. Check the logs on the site here to see what people look for and add it.

Just my 2¢.

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

Only one feedback? (Thanks AST!)

I'll try and move this to reddit and twitter and FB and see if we get more responses.

Granted it is almost the holidays, but still.

PS:

Really like the app idea and we are talking with the developer of last years app.

[dotzero]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

An app hacking contest sounds like a marvelous idea.

As far as a new direction... that way ---->

How about a gopher server? or alt.defcon?

Don't mind me, Shrdlu forced me to post this.

[shrdlu]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

An app hacking contest sounds like a marvelous idea.

As far as a new direction... that way ---->

How about a gopher server? or alt.defcon?

Don't mind me, Shrdlu forced me to post this.

Well, I never saw you do anything you didn't actually want to do...

I personally believe there are easier to use forums than this one, but I'm old, and set in my ways, and not the target audience that is under discussion. I posted over on dc-stuff about this, and included the link back, in hopes of igniting some useful discussion. There was indeed discussion, although I don't know that I'd call it useful (although Lizz had some good points).

I'd advise against an app, even if you managed to cover ios and android (all million and a half varieties thereof), for reasons that were mentioned on the list (notably permissions, and exploits), other than just the schedule that you already seem to have a handle on.

I dunno. This seems rather like trying to throw a rope around quicksilver.

I wish you luck, though (she said in her kindest and most genuine voice).

[astcell]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

There was a time these forums could not be left alone for a few days lest you be overwhelmed with posts when you come back. Then folks started leaving. Some simply find other things to do with their time, but what of those who still atend Defcon? Why did they give up here?

I lived in apartments when in college and it was all college kids. A few years after I graduated the place was a shadow of its former self with no students to be found. I have no idea what happened. It's like they all left and no one told me where to go and when to be there. Same here. Just where DID everyone go?

[shrdlu]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

[QUOTE=astcell;132327]There was a time these forums could not be left alone for a few days lest you be overwhelmed with posts when you come back. Then folks started leaving. Some simply find other things to do with their time, but what of those who still attend Defcon? Why did they give up here?[/QUOTE

Since I've been avoiding Defcon like the plague since DC19 (the last one I went to, and I regret going to that one), I'm not sure I can honestly speak to this, but I do point out that there's a very tight inner group when people attend, and it's insular enough that it doesn't really let more than a few, very persistent folks in. It seemed like it was getting worse, but (as I'd said) you can't take my word for it.

I lived in apartments when in college and it was all college kids. A few years after I graduated the place was a shadow of its former self with no students to be found. I have no idea what happened. It's like they all left and no one told me where to go and when to be there. Same here. Just where DID everyone go?

Now *this* I have an answer to. They moved to other places, and you were too busy with what you were doing to notice. Lots more kids stay at home to go to school nowadays, but mostly, they're off in other worlds. I see a lot on Instagram, and certainly on Twitter, and even Facebook, but those are probably not your standard Defcon attendees. FB is populated with family, and family-like groups, and is different than it used to be. Even *I* am on FB (most of my connections are relatives).

LinkedIn is useless. I dumped it a while back. There's a point at which they forgot what made them useful, and attractive, and have, far as I can tell, committed willful suicide. Reddit is old people, pretending to be young (sorry ahead of time to those that are on it, and disagree).

Nothing is forever. People are still joining dc-stuff (although they seldom post), and you *know* we're not very friendly. Okay, you *know* that *I* am not friendly. We go through spurts of activity (and probably had more discussion about this topic than you've had here).

I'd LOVE to see the forum software dumped for something a little less, um, cute, but am enormously grateful that Cot went to the bother of providing a style choice that allows my eyes the ability to read. Grey on Black is not friendly to old eyes. I have a forum elsewhere that uses phpBB, and I have 90% of the cute crap blocked. People still manage to communicate. Smilies are so 2005.

Bleagh. Now I'm descending into unimportant minutia, which was not my intent.

As I'd started to say, nothing is forever. Everything changes. Everything.

[bandors]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

I generally only lurk on these forums.
I seriously suggest using reddit.com/r/defcon, as I activly view that subreddit and it is much easier to acces/view than this forum.
(I actually came to this thread from http://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comme...hanging_times/ )

Reddit is generally well-liked by most people.

[seeess]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

When I went to my first defcon there was a few interesting posts on the forums that I wanted to contribute to / ask questions about. But the forum signup blackout period was a few days (at the time at least), so I couldn't use the forums until defcon was over. By then it was too late.

I would guess defcon for most people is only even thought about for a week or two a year, services need to be discoverable, available, and useful during that very short time window.

I think the obvious problem with the forums is people don't go here to browse, why would they, especially off season when there is little content that may be interesting to them. If forum subscriptions were somehow defaulted on or advertised more, more people would get emails about the new posts they are interested in. That is more of a patch to the problem than a solution.

The reason why /r/defcon works is I go to reddit for other reasons, but a few defcon posts may hit my frontpage/feed that I will check out. But it has the disadvantage of being hard to find old important information, unless a few posts are stickied. But with the federated nature of unofficial and even official events and contensts run by different people, you'd need dozens of stickied posts there for users to find the information they're looking for.

Sounds like the forums are better for non-conversations, more like a yellow pages of what is happening. Reddit may be good for conversations that are discussed for a day or two, and twitter for shorter conversations (possibly per talk)

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

Any thoughts as to the usefulness of a wiki to capture the "stuff" people want to know about the con? Would that make the forums redundant?

I have my own opinions but I really want to hear what people have to say.

[bandors]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

Any thoughts as to the usefulness of a wiki to capture the "stuff" people want to know about the con? Would that make the forums redundant?

I have my own opinions but I really want to hear what people have to say.

A wiki would be nice, I'm sure a lot of us can contribute to it. I don't think that would do the job you're looking for though. As said prior, I browse reddit daily, so whenever someone posts something on /r/defcon I see it without having to go out of my way to look for it.

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

I made the decision before con to stop the LinkedIn DEF CON group, but haven't gotten around to it. As a xmas present this year we'll remove LinkedIn and replace it with Reddit on our homepage and various links, and start encouraging everyone to hang out there as well.

Do we have any sort of consensus on picture sharing?

[elkentaro]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

I guess, as dumb as this might sound, for the old timers any medium is fine to communicate, for the new people there probably needs to be a "how to communicate" stuff somewhere. But then again the searching and finding is of part of the fun so hard to say. But definitely one + for closing the LinkedIn thing.

I say bring back the "web ring" concept…..lol… "Use this image as a banner".

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

We are planning to use reddit more to answer questions and see how it does and a 1/2 point between twitter and forums.

Also Bobcat has created a reddit wiki for everyone to play with to see if it is useful. Currently it requires 0 karma points to make a change, so see if it could be useful.

Main defcon reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon

Wiki reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/wiki/index

[astcell]

Re: DEF CON re-vamp - feedback requested

"Now *this* I have an answer to. They moved to other places, and you were too busy with what you were doing to notice." -shrdlu

Yes, they did. And when I see some of them they have changed jobs 5-25 times, they have never settled down, and they are always on the go. Something I used to envy. However we are the same age, and it's scary to see that some of these people are no further ahead than when they were 25. They will work until they die and they have no choice in the matter. My boring life was steadfast and it will see me through.

Same with the forums. I have been here since 2001. I think I was on Orkut in 2001 maybe? Heck it was CompuServ forums in 1984 I believe, then Prodigy Forums, and that lovely AOL format for a while. But since 2001 we have had Orkut, MySpace, Facebook, now we have Ello that no one knows what to do with, we have reddit, and tomorrow we will have something else.

These forums are steadfast. Yes they are long in tooth, but they are archival, and considering the sped at which computers change, these forums are downright relics. And that's not bad in any way. I know of no other place where hackers can voice themselves, and do so freely, on a site with software designed to be archival. No one knows what you did on Facebook 12 hours ago nevermind 12 years ago. These forums never forget. If they are to be replaced. I hope their successor is as steadfast in keeping the acquired knowledge available.