Comments on DEF CON 24: Make DEF CON 25 better...

[t0x0]

Here's why this whole discussion pisses off a bunch of people.

#1: Hacker Jeopardy needs to...

"OK, cool, that's your opinion, maybe we should discuss this."

So please, if you're male, you don't really get to dispute that.

"Oh, I see. My opinion doesn't matter."

In general, I think defcon needs to make a real effort towards inclusion and diversity. I can already hear the kiddies yelling "SJW SJW SJW!!!"

"Oh, 'inclusion and diversity' but I'm not even allowed to have an opinion or I'm a kiddy who hates women. Cool."

This is why you get called an SJW. SJW doesn't mean you have opinions I disagree with, it means you're trying to stifle the opposition to your viewpoints with emotional leverage and guilt tripping. For the record, I've only been to HJ once, it doesn't seem like all that much fun to me, but some people enjoy it, it's practically an institution and goddamn it if three slides of "shit may be offensive, leave if you don't want to see it" aren't enough, then FUCK OFF. Most of the people (whether they are women or earnest supporters) who are all pissy about HJ weren't even there, they are getting their outrage on via Twitter, RTing someone's picture of a question about dicks. This is an after hours event at a non-professional con that has tons of disclaimers. Face it, you don't want diversity and inclusion, you want homogeneity, uniformity and beigeness - the same thing thousands people go to Vegas to get away from.

How about you and the rest of the SJW's start Beigecon.

Goddamn disclaimer that shouldn't be necessary:
* Being an asshole to another person is not acceptable and I am not defending it.
* Offensive content is not the same as being an asshole.
* Not being polite is not the same as being an asshole.

[MrMonopoly]

Badge Line: This was awesome. I got in line around 7:00 and had a badge about 45 minutes later.

Badges: As someone else mentioned, I wish the badge was more useful this year. I think the badges are often done for the 1% who play the badge contest and ignore the other 99%. People seemed to be still trying to figure out how to do even basic interactions with the badge on Sunday, which is a waste. Personally, the DEF CON 22 badge is one of my favorite in recent years. It has blinky lights, buttons, a USB port, and included all the code needed to program it on Day 1. That means the casual person can spend an hour or two messing with and still have fun while the people who want to do the badge contest can still spend all weekend trying to decipher the codes.

BlackHat Badge Fiasco: I did not go to BlackHat so I was not affected, but if I was, I would be livid. How did they run out of “real” badges when it was all pre-sold and they knew the exact number? I know there is a guy going around the forum telling everyone they shouldn’t complain since the paper badge still got you into the conference, but the fact is that DEF CON badges are important. That’s the reason why people line up the night before is to guarantee a real badge. DEF CON 20 badges were sold after the con for around $50, so I consider that to be the value of the badge. The people who pre-paid and got paper badges got robbed of $50.

Pre-Reg: I wish DEF CON would move on from its “cash only” policy for badges. I understand why it started, but I think they are fooling themselves if they think the con is still underground considering the 20,000+ people that attend and the fact that it is in a casino with CCTV covering every inch. Allow people to pre-register and pre-pay online and have that guarantee you a “real” badge. You can still order some extra badges and do cash at the door for those who don’t want to pre-reg.

Thursday: I know, DEF CON does not officially start on Thursday. It would be nice if this would change. I understand that this would be more work for the staff which is probably why it doesn’t happen. I just feel like Thursday is a complete waste. There are 101 talks, but since nothing else is open those are always packed. DCTV was also broken on Thursday, so if you wanted to watch a talk on TV you couldn’t. Maybe allow villages and vendors to optionally open early if they want?

Venue: I’m looking forward to seeing Caesars next year. The walk between the two sides of DEF CON will not be missed.

Swag: I was frustrated to see the swag booth closed on Sunday even though the program claimed it would be open. Why was it closed?

Vendors: I was happy to see some vendors, like UAT, selling items this year even if it was just T-shirts. My wife got a shirt at their booth that she really liked. Most years there are 2-3 vendors that are selling nothing and just taking up space, and I’m not sure I saw that this year which is good.

Douchebaggery: I know I’m going to get hate for this, but I think the douchebaggery is part of what makes DEF CON unique. It is a spectacle. There are plenty of other cons that are very serious and professional (and boring). My wife and I both attended Hacker Jeopardy and neither was offended. When I mentioned to her the controversy that was going on, her comment was “This is Vegas, isn’t that what the whole city is about?” If you are offended by drunk people saying stupid things, you probably should avoid Las Vegas all together.

[MrMonopoly]

How about you and the rest of the SJW's start Beigecon.

They have, it is called BsidesLV.

[TheCotMan]

On the items related to Hacker Jeopardy:

I've found comments here and elsewhere happy and unhappy with Hacker Jeopardy. Some people believe it has been neutered, and been made PC and said they will not return to it. Some expressed joy in seeing Hacker Jeopardy and the entertainment it provided. Some did not like it and have provided different reasons.

We really like constructive criticism. We like information on how you all would change DEF CON to make it better, what you would like to see return, and ideas you have on how to make your thoughts into functional parts of con.

Open access to provide your opinions, even if they are in great contrast to other people's opinions is really great! We can have dialogue over items and issues.

For arguments involving opinions, it is unlikely any kind of agreement would ever be reached. There are several arguments that often have no agreement:
* Opinion / Subjective
* Those where two sides cannot agree upon definitions of words used in debate
* Paradox
* Use of a discrete resource
* [more]

This is one of those "opinion" arguments. It is very unlikely we will solve this in any way that will make everyone happy.

Arguments with each other also will not help people make decisions.

The absolutely, best path you all have in seeing changes you want to see happen comes in providing your opinions, thoughts and ideas on how things can be made better, and make suggestions of how to make it work, considering possible consequences and addressing them.

Thoughtful, reasoned arguments will gain the greatest traction when the people that run events like this, and goons that make decisions get together to discuss things like this.

I write this now, not because any rules have been broken in this thread (constructive criticism is good (I do not like $thing**$idea and here is why), flaming is bad (you suck!)), but because I see a risk for this discussion turning into a collection of flaming comments directed at people, not issues. (We can learn things through constructive criticism. Flaming risks reduction to irrational, emotional comments that adds nothing to understanding, comprehension or education.)

We want ideas. If you want your ideas to have the best chances for success, provide amazing arguments to support your ideas, even if those are for not changing something that you enjoy.

Thanks!

[t0x0]

One of the biggest issues I saw at DC24 was 'turbulence' in the lines - two groups of people traveling in opposite directions through a narrow hall. This could be avoided by using alternate routes, for instance if you're going up to Bally's 26th floor, you use the basement elevators, if you're descending you arrive at Casino level, this way you remove one of the four competing flows (to the elevators, from the elevators, to the vendor/village area, from the vendor/village area). If you then have a "keep to the right" rule (which was implied) and a defined border to the oncoming traffic, you force people exiting the elevators to exit the choke point before they can turn around and head into the village/vendor area and you've streamlined things into two flows with less potential for obstacles (the breathing kind).

I'm not a traffic engineer, so this may not work, but it seems logical.

[sainate]

Had an awesome time this year, huge thank you to all of the folks that worked hard to make it happen. Off the cuff (and in no particular order), a couple of things:

• One way lanes to the speaker tracks. The goons had pathways clearly marked and told everyone where to go for the talk that they were in. Seemed to go a lot smoother this year. There were slow spots but it moved.
• Last year, the massive traffic jam after the opening ceremonies on the Paris side was mitigated this year (a good thing). It was traded though for a slow crawl from the opening ceremonies all the way over to the Bally's side. I don't know that there's a way to fix it (aside from getting a bigger venue, which I believe has been done for DC25).
• Registration went quickly and smoothly. There were folks lining up Wednesday evening and waiting all night. I got in line about 5:50am on Thursday and was out of the line, with my badge, by 7:10am. Seemed to run like a well oiled machine (awesome).
• In room viewing of talks. We stayed at the Paris and last year were able to pick up some of the talks in the room. This year, we were only able to get a few of them (admittedly, we didn't spend a *lot* of time in the room, but when we did we tried not to miss anything) but it was just a default splashscreen or weather screen most of the time. Ultimately a positive because it made us do whatever we were doing and get back to the con, but it was nice to catch some of the talks on the local TV if the lines were too long or we weren't able to make it down for whatever reason.
• Skytalks via the cargo elevator was an awesome plan to relieve some of the load on the main elevator and keep the hallway clear. I think that this was an after-the-fact plan but, regardless, seemed like a good plan.

Again, kudos to all of the folks that worked so hard to make DEF CON awesome!!

[TheCotMan]

Had an awesome time this year, huge thank you to all of the folks that worked hard to make it happen. Off the cuff (and in no particular order), a couple of things:

• One way lanes to the speaker tracks. The goons had pathways clearly marked and told everyone where to go for the talk that they were in. Seemed to go a lot smoother this year. There were slow spots but it moved.
• Last year, the massive traffic jam after the opening ceremonies on the Paris side was mitigated this year (a good thing). It was traded though for a slow crawl from the opening ceremonies all the way over to the Bally's side. I don't know that there's a way to fix it (aside from getting a bigger venue, which I believe has been done for DC25).
• Registration went quickly and smoothly. There were folks lining up Wednesday evening and waiting all night. I got in line about 5:50am on Thursday and was out of the line, with my badge, by 7:10am. Seemed to run like a well oiled machine (awesome).
• In room viewing of talks. We stayed at the Paris and last year were able to pick up some of the talks in the room. This year, we were only able to get a few of them (admittedly, we didn't spend a *lot* of time in the room, but when we did we tried not to miss anything) but it was just a default splashscreen or weather screen most of the time. Ultimately a positive because it made us do whatever we were doing and get back to the con, but it was nice to catch some of the talks on the local TV if the lines were too long or we weren't able to make it down for whatever reason.
• Skytalks via the cargo elevator was an awesome plan to relieve some of the load on the main elevator and keep the hallway clear. I think that this was an after-the-fact plan but, regardless, seemed like a good plan.

Again, kudos to all of the folks that worked so hard to make DEF CON awesome!!

(This thread was primarily for feedback on the Hardware hacking Village. Would you like me to move this to the generic thread for all of DEF CON? It is ok if you want it to stay here. Thanks!)

[EDIT: The post I replied to was in this thread: https://forum.defcon.org/forum/defco...at-you-thought and now has been moved to the location is is now, after reply from the original poster. (See below.) ]

[sainate]

Ahhhh, crap. I saw the 'tell us what you thought' and jumped a gun (RTFM style comments deserved). Yes, please move it :)

[TheCotMan]

Ahhhh, crap. I saw the 'tell us what you thought' and jumped a gun (RTFM style comments deserved). Yes, please move it :)

Done! (Moved.)

[sainate]

Thank you!

[fiveatoms]

One of the biggest issues I saw at DC24 was 'turbulence' in the lines - two groups of people traveling in opposite directions through a narrow hall. This could be avoided by using alternate routes, for instance if you're going up to Bally's 26th floor, you use the basement elevators, if you're descending you arrive at Casino level, this way you remove one of the four competing flows (to the elevators, from the elevators, to the vendor/village area, from the vendor/village area). If you then have a "keep to the right" rule (which was implied) and a defined border to the oncoming traffic, you force people exiting the elevators to exit the choke point before they can turn around and head into the village/vendor area and you've streamlined things into two flows with less potential for obstacles (the breathing kind).

I'm not a traffic engineer, so this may not work, but it seems logical.

This makes a lot of sense. Another con I attend that has excellent elevator management procedures has a strictly-enforced practice of "off on 2, on on 1" to avoid traffic problems. (Exceptions are made as needed to accommodate those who couldn't use other means.) Not sure what Ceasar's would look like, but hopefully traffic flow has been or will be evaluated prior to dc25 to see if such a procedure would apply.

[fiveatoms]

Face it, you don't want diversity and inclusion, you want homogeneity, uniformity and beigeness

No, but you seem to be implying that diversity and inclusion necessarily leads to what you call "beigeness". Dude, have you seen QUEERCON? (<--- foreshadowing)

The hacker jeopardy thing was a problem, but IMHO *not* the "dicks" thing. Yes, there was a category called "DICKS" to which the answers had some form of "dick" in them. I personally thought that was clever and made the answers accessible even to those with minimal security background. The reason this was pointed out by some people as offensive is because it is a concrete example. When someone says "sexism exists at defcon" nobody is willing to take that person at their word; they always demand proof. For some, this is proof enough. Set against the tableau of scantly clad women serving beer to a panel of neckbeards, the image doesn't sit well with some people.

To me, though, HJ has a bigger problem, and that is the double standard. Take two examples: 1 - The women who were serving contestants on stage were stripping at each daily double. 2 - The same women were apparently wearing strap on dildos at some point. To the other people who are fine with these things - would you also be fine if a guy or person of ambiguous gender were doing them? My guess is, probably not. They would get flamed right off the stage. So I guess what I'm getting at is, I want QUEERCON to take over hacker jeopardy next year. ;) They are inclusive and diverse and about as far from "beige" as you can get (no offense to the color beige).

(NOTE: I'm actually fine with 1 & 2, anything goes as long as it's their free choice to do it. This example is not intended to be a judgement on the women or their choice to help out the HJ event. They are badass people too, and their antics definitely add needed character and spice to the contest.)

One more observation RE hacker jeopardy: After all these things mentioned above happened, the emcee made a comment about getting more women up there as contestants. Frankly, I could not physically roll my eyes hard enough at how tone-deaf that was. I'm glad that a woman ended up winning (part of the winning team?) but that doesn't erase the sexist nature of the event.

Let's keep the constructive discussion going.

[t0x0]

I was gonna let it go since Cot was nudging that way, but this seems like a productive discussion - I'm probably not going to continue it past this though.

No, but you seem to be implying that diversity and inclusion necessarily leads to what you call "beigeness".

I don't think diversity and inclusion lead to "beigeness" [I really shouldn't make up words] but rather that they're the shield behind which people hide who want to eliminate everything that's offensive. I think diversity and inclusion are great, but that's not the same as removing anything that could cause offense to anyone. if you destroy everything that offends you, you will soon live in a very boring world without much creativity or change. If that goal is accomplished with Defcon, we'll end up with something more like TedX, not Defcon.

To the other people who are fine with these things - would you also be fine if a guy or person of ambiguous gender were doing them? My guess is, probably not. They would get flamed right off the stage. So I guess what I'm getting at is, I want QUEERCON to take over hacker jeopardy next year. ;) They are inclusive and diverse and about as far from "beige" as you can get (no offense to the color beige).

Personally, I don't love the whole atmosphere to begin with (which is why I don't go). It seems forced and makes me a little uncomfortable. I also don't like high audience participation comedy shows for the same reason. So I don't fit into your poll demographic for people who are fine with such things, but I'll answer anyway - I would be equally uncomfortable with folks of my own gender involved as I am with the status quo. Having said that, if Queercon wants to be involved in HJ, then sure. It would be shitty to shun them and more people might be interested in attending the event, which would be great. In my opinion your suggestion has far more merit toward diversity and inclusion than others. Would HJ be less sexist if it a female were involved in asking the questions instead of just being perceived as being the eye candy? Also perhaps a way to make it more inclusive without destroying it...or a little of both (men stripping and women MCing)?

I suspect part of the issue you mentioned (men not being welcome onstage) may be addressed by this seemingly unattributable quote: "Men's magazines often feature pictures of naked ladies. Women's magazines also often feature pictures of naked ladies. This is because the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body is hairy and lumpy and should not be seen by the light of day."

*shrug*

Anyway, I think you made some really good points. Thanks for engaging without taking too much offense to my rant.

[t0x0]

The issue with changes to the schedule last-minute have been a problem for decades.
...
"Sandwich Boards" and "A-Frame" with paper were tried, but quickly defaced, altered with bad information, or went missing. Similar with dry-erase boards. As for availability, these were not effective.

One of the better ideas that was created to help with this was the Information Booth, but not a great way to announce changes to all ~22,000 people.
...
The rest of the options leverage an assumption of access to a smartphone.
...
There is also following several key account on twitter, but that also requires a mobile device capable of getting twitter feeds and accessing them while at con.
...
Paper signs on doors announcing last-minute changes risk the same issues of A-Frame/Sandwich boards.

We have not yet found a really good solution to this issue that is:
* Easy
* Accessible to all
* Easily accessible to all
* Low risk for defacement
* Available to people without people enabling or using tech
* Cost effective
* Time-effective (in human/goon hours)

I'd suggest an airport style solution - large screens (projectors?) with the day's schedule in a few places throughout main areas. It doesn't need many details, just something like

[earlier times looped above]
1500
T1 - Title of Preso - Presenters - On Schedule
T2 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Full
T3 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Canceled
T4 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Delayed

1600
T1 - Title of Preso - Presenters - On Schedule
T2 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Full
T3 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Canceled
T4 - Title of Preso - Presenters - Delayed
[later times looped below]
[horizontal ticker]1200 T1 "Presentation on shits and giggles" - MOVED TO 1300 T2[/horizontal ticker]

This could scroll through the times for the day, and have a ticker at the bottom noting any talk location changes. Perhaps near the line to every track, in primary hangout areas and onscreen before the talks begin?

The downside to this solution is capital cost. It probably wouldn't be too difficult to build, maintain, or use and I think it would accomplish the goal well, but there's definitely a cost for equipment. Up to management to decide if it's cost effective. :)

[Gigs]

Not sure what Ceasar's would look like, but hopefully traffic flow has been or will be evaluated prior to dc25 to see if such a procedure would apply.

There's no elevators, just two banks of ridiculously long escalators. When I visited the other day one of the escalators was broken. There are 4 in a bank, two up two down.