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Shoot is happening, just probably not at lovell canyon

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  • Shoot is happening, just probably not at lovell canyon

    Updated Info: See this post by deviant or directions on the shoot site for where the shoot will take place this year. It is in a different location than all previous years

    <Preface; I'm just some guy, I don't run the shoot, anything I say is superseded by anything Deviant says>
    Similar to last year there is a firearm discharge restriction[PDF] issued by the forest service that prevents us from shooting at the lovell canyon location we used to use prior to last year. This restriction is not related to a fire hazard (like it was last year) and is in effect until November.

    We spoke with the US forest service area manager Don Christensen, who was nice enough to go through "what if" scenarios for 15 minutes, but the short version is there is no way we can acquire a permit to shoot there this year. Basically due to largely unregulated shooting that occurred previously, they received multiple complaints from non-shooters about bullets being shot or landing near them (almost certainly not due to our group, especially since we haven't been there since 2015). Because of that, they are drafting a "management plan" for multiple use of the area (which includes shooting). It will specify where different activities can occur, and what precautions need to be taken. However primarily due to the senior cabinet positions within the government changing over, they don't expect to have this management plan issued until November.

    There are three exemptions to this order; 1. people with a permit 2. fed/state/local officer or firefighter while performing official duties 3. Legal hunting.
    The only one we could fall under is #1, and I asked 5 different ways how we could acquire a permit: 'what if we hire a forest ranger to supervise, have double the RSOs, rent water trucks...' but he said there is simply no way they would grant one until the management plan is in place.
    He did say once the management plan is in place (say for next year, or if it magically is completed 6 months early) we could apply for a permit by outlining our plans, and how we would meet any fire concerns, etc. This permit would remain valid and allow us to shoot even if they enact a new firearm restriction the day before (something to keep in mind for next year).

    He also mentioned they will be soliciting the public's feedback once a draft is ready for review.

    Options as I see them:
    1. Use the clark county 'education center' range like last year. It has perks like bathrooms/AC/shade/food but also restricts 50cal and above. And fewer people might want to camp due to the temp/elevation unless we can get access to the larger building. Deviant mentioned he may try to find a compromise with them if we shoot high caliber firearms into some type of barrier we can setup. (This is not the same as the public clark county range, the education center is run independently). There's even a gun store across the street for ammo or whatever you need.

    2. If you look at the map on page 3 of the ban, it only includes a portion of the area. I'm not familiar with the rest of the area, but it looks like we could shoot west of where we usually do. If anyone knows if this is practical, please comment and post pictures of alternative sites.

    3. A different range. If you know of another range you recommend that can support 100ish people please do a little leg work by checking their availability during the dates and times we usually hold it, what fees they charge, and any restrictions they have. That's more helpful than "My friend told me about this one place but I've never been".

    AFAIK the shoot is still on and this is not a major set back, we worked around it last year, this is just something to keep in mind.
    Last edited by seeess; June 28, 2017, 15:28.

  • #2
    I pinged Deviant on Twitter and he says the stuff on the Defcon shoot website is official at this point. Clark County Shooting Complex again this year.

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    • #3
      The CCSC might have some downsides w.r.t. caliber (bummer), but it really is a very nice facility in every other respect. And they seemed happy to have us.

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      • #4
        Coming from the UK and never shot at DEF CON before. Won't be bringing anything with me so does anyone know about rental?

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        • #5
          Originally posted by happsdev View Post
          Coming from the UK and never shot at DEF CON before. Won't be bringing anything with me so does anyone know about rental?
          I do not run this event. Nothing i write is authoritative.

          In the past, this has been an event where people bring their own firearms and ammunition. However, some people bring equipment to share with other people, and some bring equipment and charge for ammunition and/or use. There was no centralized "everyone charges $this for #that." Each person with their own equipment has their own policies, which are not enforced by the DEF CON Shoot event. These were cash-only, no credit cards or traveler's cheques.

          At the DEF CON shoot, if you plan to use other people's equipment, when you arrive, there will probably be a period of introduction where Deviant Ollam (or someone else) walks through the best practices, firearm safety, who are RSO, definitions like cease fire, firing line, etc, *and* ask people willing to share access to their lane/equipment to raise their hand, *and* ask people that are looking to borrow use of other people's equipment. Please, be kind when being given a chance to use other people's equipment and offer to pay them cash for the ammunition you will be consuming. (It costs them money. Larger calibre cost much, much more than smaller calibre.)

          Things may be different since the move away from Lovell Canyon public land to the government/county/city owned location.

          I do not know of *any* locations that would allow you to rent firearms and buy ammo to take out of their location (to other locations outside their control) to shoot.

          If this bothers you or you can't make the dates/times, there are ranges in Las Vegas which are pay-to-play : they have prices for rentals , and ammo, and have safety equipment (ear and eye protection) as well as lanes.

          Separate from the "DEF CON Shoot" two well known options for commercial services are "The Gun Store" (they tend to have a person with you to manage the firearm, and will load the magazine(s) and firearms, and carry them to the range and stay with you while you shoot: your access is often limited to a loaded weapon that is ready-to-fire) and "American Shooters" (you rent the weapons, and buy the ammo, and load the magazines and firearm and take your equipment to/from the range.) In both cases, if you have questions or need help, they have been ready and willing to help and answer questions. There are several other ranges, too. I've visited these with non-U.S. citizens and they were able to rent firearms, but ID (like passport) and credit card to pay and have as a deposit as point of rental.

          I do not work for either of these. I preferred "American Shooters" because they would just give me the stuff, and let me take it to my lane, load, and shoot without the "managed/tutorial service." They seem to be a store that sells to law enforcement professional, and people with experience shooting. If you have zero experience with firearms, you may prefer to have someone walk you through the full process and use it as a learning experience. In such a case, having someone to watch, and help you might be a service you desire. This kind of service at "The Gun Store" (and many of the other ranges like The Gun Store) may be preferable. (When starting out, having a tutor/nanny can really help you establish good practices on safety, but if you already know these, such a service feels like interference.)

          HTH,
          -Cot

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          • #6
            Originally posted by happsdev View Post
            Coming from the UK and never shot at DEF CON before. Won't be bringing anything with me so does anyone know about rental?
            Many of the shooters at the event, including me, will be happy to lend you time on their lane and let you try their firearms. Most just for the cost of their ammunition.

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            • #7
              happsdev..

              I have never shot at DefCon before either also this year is my first CON as a treat for my 50th Birthday. I am an exprienced shooter and do most of my firearms training out of the UK in France. I have already registered on the "Unofficial Shoot Registration" page and paid the small fee on the web site. I have spent some time in LA and the ranges there perform as "TheCotMan" describes, you hire the kit and take it to the range and you are on your own. I did have to become a member first, and you needed to have another adult with you due to some "Suicide Law". I intend to shoot away from the Con shoot as well (American Shooters looks a good bet), if you wanna hookup, before/during/after am happy to buddy up at a range. I will either pay what others are asking and use their kit or if the range allows I will hire my own :)
              Either way...am so looking forward to it all..wishing the days away....

              Comment


              • #8
                I prefer the defcon shoot of course, it is cheaper and has more interesting things to try out. But if you're looking for other retail shooting ranges:
                https://www.battlefieldvegas.com/ it is the only range I know of that rents a minigun to the public, and great selection
                https://machinegunexperience.com/ not as well known, usually a little cheaper, not as good of a selection as other places

                I went to "the gun store" 6 years ago so maybe it changed, but when I went they were a little too overprotective for me (not letting me load mags, drop the bolt, etc). They also advertise everywhere so there are many tourists there. I felt like cattle having them shuffle you through, and take your money.

                No matter where you choose to shoot, just be honest about your experience. Nearly everyone should be happy to explain how to shoot safely, and if they don't then you shouldn't want to shoot there anyway. It can be hard to hear people during live fire, if you can't understand answers to your questions ask again, and again.

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                • #9
                  Thanks a lot for all the info, is really very much appreciated.

                  Pb'd-Core - glad I won't be the only one who's never shot at DEF CON before! I've got a license here in the UK and spend some of my weekends at Bisley, not shot in France so would love to hear more about it. Definitely up for buddying up at a range, PM me or reply here and I'll send you my details. Similar to some of your experiences, I've shot in Los Angeles at The LA Gun Club (I always do a week or 2 in LA before DEF CON) and it's always been pretty relaxed. Sign up, grab a Tavor and some rounds and you're left to get on with it! As you say, became a member first, provided ID, that was about all of the formalities. Indoor range I think at 25m but still good fun and access to stuff you struggle to shoot here in the UK.

                  Modafinil - thank you very much for the kind offer and would love to take you up on it. Likewise; if you're ever in the UK and fancy doing some shooting then you're more than welcome :-)

                  Seeess - I went to The Gun Store 4 years or so ago. Exactly the same feeling. It was very protective and seemed more geared up for stag do's and tourists, like you say! And your point about being honest is absolutely key. I'm from 3 generations of ex-military and have military shooting experience myself. Regardless; the RSO calls the shots, I always listen to every briefing and, to me, the gun's always loaded and dangerous, as it should be to everyone else.

                  Thanks again tho and if anyone wants to exchange details then let me know. Glad I'm not the only one so excited about going... I've been counting down the days since last year!



                  Originally posted by Pb'd-Core View Post
                  happsdev..

                  I have never shot at DefCon before either also this year is my first CON as a treat for my 50th Birthday. I am an exprienced shooter and do most of my firearms training out of the UK in France. I have already registered on the "Unofficial Shoot Registration" page and paid the small fee on the web site. I have spent some time in LA and the ranges there perform as "TheCotMan" describes, you hire the kit and take it to the range and you are on your own. I did have to become a member first, and you needed to have another adult with you due to some "Suicide Law". I intend to shoot away from the Con shoot as well (American Shooters looks a good bet), if you wanna hookup, before/during/after am happy to buddy up at a range. I will either pay what others are asking and use their kit or if the range allows I will hire my own :)
                  Either way...am so looking forward to it all..wishing the days away....
                  Many of the shooters at the event, including me, will be happy to lend you time on their lane and let you try their firearms. Most just for the cost of their ammunition.


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                  • #10
                    sorry for lag. i basically never check the DC Forums anymore. the software makes it virtually unusable if you want to only see "recent" things since your last visit so i've all but dropped off of here. sad, honestly, since i used to be on the forums every day like clockwork.

                    anyway... the Shoot is indeed happening again. and the plan will 99.999% likely be the Clark County Shooting Complex (same as last year)

                    i'm working on all the insurance and paperwork with them. just can't get any good guarantee of the old Lovell Canyon spot (due to bans and restrictions) so we can't risk it.
                    "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                    - Trent Reznor

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
                      sorry for lag. i basically never check the DC Forums anymore. the software makes it virtually unusable if you want to only see "recent" things since your last visit so i've all but dropped off of here. sad, honestly, since i used to be on the forums every day like clockwork.
                      I stay logged-in and keep a tab opened to the "Unread Content" (see the nav bar) and it shows me stuff that has been added since my last visit. I think it works up to 45 days and then expires things older than that in "not yet read." If you click that, and start with the top, visit that link, it takes you to the first post in that thread that you have not read. Then after finishing that thread, if you click the "Unread Content" , then all posts in that thread you have not read are no longer listed, only showing you what is left that you have not read.

                      anyway... the Shoot is indeed happening again. and the plan will 99.999% likely be the Clark County Shooting Complex (same as last year)

                      i'm working on all the insurance and paperwork with them. just can't get any good guarantee of the old Lovell Canyon spot (due to bans and restrictions) so we can't risk it.
                      Have you published restrictions on weapons at the Clark County Shooting Complex on your website?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        OK, everyone... so here's the news.

                        We are not at Lovell Canyon this year. We are ALSO not at Clark County Shooting Complex this year, either. (I even sent out a mailing list announcement to all attendees, etc, saying this) So where will be shooting this July?

                        The 2017 DEF CON Shoot will take place at the Cold Creek shooting spot just outside of Indian Springs, to the northwest of Las Vegas. This is a change from previous years.

                        For specific directions to the shoot site you can drop the following Lat/Long coordinates into a GPS device... 36.553, -115.654

                        The maps on the Directions page should help give you a decent idea of how to get there, as well.

                        Head north out of the city on US 95 until you reach Indian Springs (a very small town)
                        Turn Left at Macfarland Ave (first real left as you enter the town)
                        Stay on Macfarland Ave for about a half mile until Winston Ln (through town if you need anything)
                        Turn Left on Winston Ln (ignore the No Outlet & Dead End signs)
                        Take Winston Ln to the end, road turns right and turn into Old Benn Rd
                        Take Old Benn Rd to range (passing the "Not County Maintained" road sign)
                        The range is an established shooting spot, and we should have our canopies set up when you get there

                        Being out on unincorporated land once again will allow for 50BMG rounds to be fired, full autos, and just about anything else that anyone wants to bring (but i STILL have my "no binary or explosive targets" rule in effect... we're near an Air Force Base and I don't want them to go on alert due to unexplained big booms nearby!)

                        The process of finding a site this year has been utterly grueling. Vern, see_ess, BMPTS, and others have been a massive help behind-the-scenes as I worked to overcome more obstacles this year than pretty much ever before. So send all your thanks to them, please.
                        "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                        - Trent Reznor

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Looking forward to the shoot this year, see_ees was cool enough to help a buddy and I get started on making the vanity badges this year and we are excited to show them off, however I need some art help! so any of you artists out there want to lend me a hand?

                          Thanks
                          BMP
                          (BMPTS)
                          Thanks
                          B
                          (@bmp51 * BMPTS * BMP)

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