Can we reconsider masks for defon 31?

[safumufh]

edit: obviously i meant defcon, not defon :)

Hi,

I am new to this forum but not new to the hacking community.
Was at defcon 8 and at 30 last year. Last year we had a real problem with
covid and we all accepted that, we had to. So mouthmasks, common sense,
all fine, we all agreed on that. Lets all be safe. No problem.

This year things changed. We have a much higher vaccination grade, every country scaled up with that.
As result of that covid got 'weaker'. Still dangarous to people who are struggling with health,
but its under 'controle' now. It's not like the flue (ppl who say that are dumbasses),
but, it's under controle.

So, everywhere on the planet, you can walk freely withouth mouthmask.
In hospitals, huge festivals, airplanes, nerd/hack events (except defcon).

World leaders have conferences with like 20.000 people, not a mask in sight.
We can go anywhere in the world, any random place without mouth mask (except maybe IC in a hospital or doctors, dentists etc..),
So. we can go anywhere without having strong advise to wear a mask.
We can even go to china, no mask needed anywhere, we can go back and forth with airplane any day.
There are lung disease medical conferences, not a single mouthmask detetected, or even suggested.

So, why make defcon 31 the only place on earth where it is advised?
We will litterally be the only 22000 ppl on the planet to wear a mask, on a conference where we hope to
make ppl feel free and openminded. And where talking face to face is so important and key part of meeting people.

I will follow protocol and will think of my fellow hackers, but this just makes no sense.
In case we do pursue this I propose to rename defcon 31 to defcon 31 masked ball edition.

So, please stop the nonsense, can we?

My two cents,
safumufh

[number6]

edit: obviously i meant defcon, not defon :)

Hi,

I am new to this forum but not new to the hacking community.
Was at defcon 8 and at 30 last year. Last year we had a real problem with
covid and we all accepted that, we had to. So mouthmasks, common sense,
all fine, we all agreed on that. Lets all be safe. No problem.

This year things changed. We have a much higher vaccination grade, every country scaled up with that.
As result of that covid got 'weaker'. Still dangarous to people who are struggling with health,
but its under 'controle' now. It's not like the flue (ppl who say that are dumbasses),
but, it's under controle.

So, everywhere on the planet, you can walk freely withouth mouthmask.
In hospitals, huge festivals, airplanes, nerd/hack events (except defcon).

World leaders have conferences with like 20.000 people, not a mask in sight.
We can go anywhere in the world, any random place without mouth mask (except maybe IC in a hospital or doctors, dentists etc..),
So. we can go anywhere without having strong advise to wear a mask.
We can even go to china, no mask needed anywhere, we can go back and forth with airplane any day.
There are lung disease medical conferences, not a single mouthmask detetected, or even suggested.

So, why make defcon 31 the only place on earth where it is advised?
We will litterally be the only 22000 ppl on the planet to wear a mask, on a conference where we hope to
make ppl feel free and openminded. And where talking face to face is so important and key part of meeting people.

I will follow protocol and will think of my fellow hackers, but this just makes no sense.
In case we do pursue this I propose to rename defcon 31 to defcon 31 masked ball edition.

So, please stop the nonsense, can we?

My two cents,
safumufh

Policy for DEF CON 31 is stated here:
URL1 = https://defcon.org/html/defcon-31/dc-31-covid.html

...
Wearing a mask remains the safest option, but with these changes our policy is masks strongly recommended.
...

What arguments counter to provided reasons for the DEF CON 31 policy?

[safumufh]

Policy for DEF CON 31 is stated here:
URL1 = https://defcon.org/html/defcon-31/dc-31-covid.html




What arguments counter to provided reasons for the DEF CON 31 policy?

Well, strongly reccomended might feel to some (maybe most) people as it's a rule. People want to comply and feel a strong need to not make a problem about it. Because we all like defcon and want to be there, and because we are decent people. Even if they do not agree. And my arguments are that even with medical conferences about lung diseases, no-oone uses a mouth mask, basicly not any convention uses mouthmasks anymore. And pretty much all ppl i meet are happy with that :)

Masks, for me personally aren't a barrier, i'll just be there this year. I'll wear mask if i have to, not a problem. But yeah, some people are not a fan of them, especially when even medical conventions with 20,000 people dont use them, It sounds just unfair, and needless. I do know people who , out of whatever personal reason just don't join then. And that would be a shame. And is unnessary in my oppinion.

My argument is... a question I guess.. why can we go go to any convention on the planet, medical ones about lungs even. Fly there, no masks required. Even flying in from othere countries, no more rules starting 1 june. No mask required, or even suggested? *Except defcon*. It's just weird and makes no sense. Thats my argument, and question.

[dmr]

The way I am reading this, masks are recommended but not required this year. Everyone will be free to decide what they want to do and to accept the risks of doing so.

[safumufh]

The way I am reading this, masks are recommended but not required this year. Everyone will be free to decide what they want to do and to accept the risks of doing so.

I read it that way too. But if it's strongly recommended, it might be frowned upon if ppl decide otherwise, social is a bitch. So all people will do it, and those who don't will feel like scum, or are actually noncaring people and others will think they are scum. Maybe strongly recommended isn't the right term to explain what defcon means, policy wise. I'd prefer, we dunno, so do whatever you want since we have no real policy. Thats effectivly the same and actually clear.

[safumufh]

Simple solution, mouthmask optional, not a recommendation. Not any thousand+ person event on the planet does it, and not even even hospitals do so, and not even any health event conference does it. Why should we 'strongly' reccomend it and open can of potentential social pressure. Not needed, unless we expect some cool ubervirus to be introduced on defcon specificly (not covid, we pretty much killed it). I that does happen we should probably have a chat with the biohacker village :)
Otherwise it's nonsense.

[number6]

It seems like the recommendation is similar to wearing seat belts before many states adopted laws on wearing seat belts. The automotive industry strongly recommended wearing seat belts, and when in a car, you may face social pressures from some to not wear them, and in other cases face social pressures from others to wear seat belts. Evidence showed wearing seat belts reduced risks more than not wearing seat belts.

Of course, you will observe, I wrote *similar* not *same*: the difference has meaning.

Before COVID-19, there has been the often mentioned "DEF CON crud" which has been a generic name applied to flu-like symptoms many people feel after DEF CON is over, possibly because they played too hard, putting themselves at greater risk for getting sick. For contagious diseases transmitted through the air, a properly worn mark capable of filtering out these diseases has been shown to reduce risks of being infected and when infected, reduce severity.

Next, there is a common reference for social engineering before it was named social engineering... "when in Rome, do as the Romans." As a general rule, if the actions you are considering adopting because others are completing those actions, if the actions do not harm you or others, there is an advantage in blending in with people around you.

When network security is considered, setting up a network-based firewall is usually safer than not having one.
When opening an unknown document on a system, it is safer to have it inspected for malware before being loaded for use.

You may face peer pressure to setup a firewall if you choose not to, but that is your choice. However, if your systems are compromised, and become part of a botnet or nodes to launch attacks, you may face more consequences by choosing to be less safe.
You may face peer pressure to setup some kind of malware detection, but if you do not, that is your choice.

The final issue with ignoring industry recommended actions (whether strongly recommended or not) when your systems are compromised, your peers will often blame you for failing to take the recommended actions.

Your own body is a system. A mask can improve the defense of your own system. It is strongly recommended to wear a mask. The policy for masks has been published. What decision will you make when faced with the present recommendation?

Once a malicious actor manages to bypass your external defense, you can try to rely on internal defense, but if internal defense is unable to identify the threat and act quickly enough, your own system is compromised, and can become a vector for attacking other people's systems.

In the "real" world, usual security defense professionals strongly recommend and encourage "security with layers." Whether COVID-19, DEF CON Crud, flu or cold, we have layers: wash your hands before eating or touching your face, immunizations when reasonable, masks, air filtration and re-circulation through filters, and other defensive measures like zinc or vitamin c. And like "real" world, once a system (body) is compromised, the effort to repair can be significant, or reduce the system's capacity to do work. (More sleep, medical care, hospital care, or worse.) A firewall is a layer: it is not 100% effective at stopping attacks. A mask can be a layer and it is not 100% effective at stopping attacks. (These speak nothing of how if you are infected and spreading it to infect others. These are only focused on an individual making their own decisions for only their own benefit.)

The policy is posted. You have described your dislike of the policy. Do you have anything *new* to add in support of not wanting to possibly face peer pressure if masks are widely worn, to support your opinion?

[safumufh]

The policy is posted. You have described your dislike of the policy. Do you have anything *new* to add in support of not wanting to possibly face peer pressure if masks are widely worn, to support your opinion?

In all fairness I just wanted the open the discussion. So to answer your question: I guess not.

[number6]

In all fairness I just wanted the open the discussion. So to answer your question: I guess not.

If you do come up with more arguments for not having masks be recommended or strongly recommended, please consider posting them.

The decision making process for almost everything at DEF CON has historically been a system which uses data-driven evidence and reason to weigh various objective items (where opinion does not change the outcome) and then consider subjective items (where opinions are almost the only criteria) to find "best" choices.

Objective data tends to be the strongest towards swaying decisions.
Subjective data tends to be weaker, and usually alone, is not enough to change policies.

Good luck!