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  • LPCON 2x2 Signup Suggestions

    Good to see this available.... I'll notify some people who wanted to compete.

    Suggestion:
    Between each user attempt in the event, somsone should follow them and verify the pins are re-seated and all still functional. Over time, pins will get sloppy with their play and any pins left at the shear [sp] line will make it easier for the next person who comes along.

    You should have someone re-verify the number of pins which are working in each lock before each trial day. There is risk for sabatoge, or purposeful modification of locks to remove pins or add master pins to make picking easier with more commbinational shear [sp] lines

    I have locks which can be raked with popsicle stick due to wear... (ok, well, they are not *that* bad, but they sure feel like it.)

    Question: Will you be re-pinning the locks after each day so as to make familiarity less powerful to the picker?

    [sp] I'll have to look it up. I think it is shear (as in cut line) but could be sheer (as in perpendicular.)

  • #2
    Originally posted by TheCotMan
    Good to see this available.... I'll notify some people who wanted to compete.

    Suggestion:
    Between each user attempt in the event, somsone should follow them and verify the pins are re-seated and all still functional. Over time, pins will get sloppy with their play and any pins left at the shear [sp] line will make it easier for the next person who comes along.

    You should have someone re-verify the number of pins which are working in each lock before each trial day. There is risk for sabatoge, or purposeful modification of locks to remove pins or add master pins to make picking easier with more commbinational shear [sp] lines

    I have locks which can be raked with popsicle stick due to wear... (ok, well, they are not *that* bad, but they sure feel like it.)

    Question: Will you be re-pinning the locks after each day so as to make familiarity less powerful to the picker?

    [sp] I'll have to look it up. I think it is shear (as in cut line) but could be sheer (as in perpendicular.)
    Hey, I'm gonna try and get a mod to move this to the other thread (I forgot to state signups only), but I wanted to answer your question.

    We will not be re-keying the locks. The locks are secured during the con, we buy new locks every year, and we have 6 different locks used at a time. This contest is designed to be pretty simple, so that just about anyone can sign up and have fun. The difficult contest is the Obstacle Course.

    Also, locks are regularly checked for damage, and the standing rule is: Break It, and Your Out.

    Comment


    • #3
      Lock pick ideas:

      Pick handcuff locks, while you are wearing them behind you back.
      Pick the tumbler on a soda machine.
      Pick a typical computer lock (if you remember what they look like).

      And a final challenge...

      Given a brand of lock that you have an unmatching key for, disassemble the lock and make the lock match your existing key.

      Comment


      • #4
        I posted this in a private message to Kai until this was moved into its own thread or deleted, but want to state this in public:

        Originally posted by Kai
        Hey, I'm gonna try and get a mod to move this to the other thread (I forgot to state signups only), but I wanted to answer your question.
        Hey, sorry about that and thanks for two things:
        1) Providing answers to the suggestions/Q posted; you appear to have this very well planned. :-)
        2) Putting on this contest (I may hang out and watch or answer Questions for a bit...)


        --

        So, thanks for organizing and publicizing this as it is a very good event which should have been included many, many DC in the past.

        I might stop by to demo some things like How a Tubular pick works (I'll bring one), how to make your own picks for warded locks (eg), and provide a few "weird locks" which defeat conventional means of picking, but since they use security by obscurity are easy to pick when you see how they work. This will be a very basic review of locks which are not standard pin-tumbler locks as well as the theory and tools, and should take less than 5 minutes as the information is pretty easy to convey. Show one person and they can show severl in a short period.

        I can draw diagrams. If you have a dry-erase board and markers or paper/pencil I can draw locks with cut-away, and provide some "hand-on" demos that I find useful in showing people one-on-one the theory of pin-tumbler locks. (Difficult to describe, but easy to show. You may find it helpful if you want to show others too. It requires 4 hands: two from the learner, and my own two.) I'm not being mysterious or anything, just lazy; it would take many pages to describe here. I've shown it to many people, and am sure I'm not the only one to think of it as a teaching technique.

        I'll also try to remember to bring in a combination lock I have drilled-out to expose the internal workings so people can see how a simple combination master padlock works.

        If I have time, I'll try to make some picks for a sample warded lock to give away to the people who are holding this LP event as a thank you. (How many people will be part of organizing your LP event?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by astcell
          Lock pick ideas:

          Pick handcuff locks, while you are wearing them behind you back.
          Pick the tumbler on a soda machine.
          Pick a typical computer lock (if you remember what they look like).

          And a final challenge...

          Given a brand of lock that you have an unmatching key for, disassemble the lock and make the lock match your existing key.
          [Edit: removed comment about methods/tools to make picking locks on soda machines and krypton(ite) locks easier as this could be a violation of rule #4 Illegal Content/Misuse as I don't think anyone here actually owns a soda machine. If discussion of methods to bypass coke machines is actually acceptable, I'm sure an admin will say so, and I'll include it again. Sorry.]

          Heh, and for the people who think they can, "pick anything," I can bring a pair of handcuffs with a rigid connector (instead of a chain) and we can have the key-holes point away from the fingers and double-lock them behind their back. ;-)
          Last edited by TheCotMan; June 4, 2004, 01:11. Reason: Removed comment on aid to pick soda machine locks

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by TheCotMan
            Heh, and for the people who think they can, "pick anything," I can bring a pair of handcuffs with a rigid connector (instead of a chain) and we can have the key-holes point away from the fingers and double-lock them behind their back. ;-)
            I like those types of handcuffs and they would make for an interesting challenge. *However, if you’re like me then you find that the handcuffs with the rigid connector will slide right off your wrists, even if the cuffs are set to the smallest setting.



            *Note: I have very small wrists and little sized hands, making it easy to escape from handcuffs. The Zip-Handcuffs do stay on thou plus they hurt if you try to wiggle out of them.
            "It is difficult not to wonder whether that combination of elements which produces a machine for labor does not create also a soul of sorts, a dull resentful metallic will, which can rebel at times". Pearl S. Buck

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lil_freak
              I like those types of handcuffs and they would make for an interesting challenge. *However, if you’re like me then you find that the handcuffs with the rigid connector will slide right off your wrists, even if the cuffs are set to the smallest setting.



              *Note: I have very small wrists and little sized hands, making it easy to escape from handcuffs. The Zip-Handcuffs do stay on thou plus they hurt if you try to wiggle out of them.

              I'm sure you had lots of practice... you definitely come across as the kinky type ;)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by highwizard
                I'm sure you had lots of practice... you definitely come across as the kinky type ;)
                Um, no comment. ;)

                But I'm sure Kai, Russ, H3adrush, or anyone from the DC719 might comment on that. I just hope if they do it's fairly nice.
                "It is difficult not to wonder whether that combination of elements which produces a machine for labor does not create also a soul of sorts, a dull resentful metallic will, which can rebel at times". Pearl S. Buck

                Comment


                • #9
                  You are bringing your antique chastity belt to let con-goers pick right?

                  Have you decided whether H3 will let you award any prizes yet?

                  :D

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kai
                    You are bringing your antique chastity belt to let con-goers pick right?

                    Have you decided whether H3 will let you award any prizes yet?

                    :D
                    :o Yes, the chastity belt is going to con. Um, I'm not sure we're going to let any of the con-goers to pick it.


                    No, you'll have to ask H3 on that.


                    *It's still to bad Netisto couldn't fit in the chastity belt, I think it would have been fun to have him wear it in public.*
                    "It is difficult not to wonder whether that combination of elements which produces a machine for labor does not create also a soul of sorts, a dull resentful metallic will, which can rebel at times". Pearl S. Buck

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TheCotMan
                      I posted this in a private message to Kai until this was moved into its own thread or deleted, but want to state this in public:



                      Hey, sorry about that and thanks for two things:
                      1) Providing answers to the suggestions/Q posted; you appear to have this very well planned. :-)
                      2) Putting on this contest (I may hang out and watch or answer Questions for a bit...)


                      --

                      So, thanks for organizing and publicizing this as it is a very good event which should have been included many, many DC in the past.

                      I might stop by to demo some things like How a Tubular pick works (I'll bring one), how to make your own picks for warded locks (eg), and provide a few "weird locks" which defeat conventional means of picking, but since they use security by obscurity are easy to pick when you see how they work. This will be a very basic review of locks which are not standard pin-tumbler locks as well as the theory and tools, and should take less than 5 minutes as the information is pretty easy to convey. Show one person and they can show severl in a short period.

                      I can draw diagrams. If you have a dry-erase board and markers or paper/pencil I can draw locks with cut-away, and provide some "hand-on" demos that I find useful in showing people one-on-one the theory of pin-tumbler locks. (Difficult to describe, but easy to show. You may find it helpful if you want to show others too. It requires 4 hands: two from the learner, and my own two.) I'm not being mysterious or anything, just lazy; it would take many pages to describe here. I've shown it to many people, and am sure I'm not the only one to think of it as a teaching technique.

                      I'll also try to remember to bring in a combination lock I have drilled-out to expose the internal workings so people can see how a simple combination master padlock works.

                      If I have time, I'll try to make some picks for a sample warded lock to give away to the people who are holding this LP event as a thank you. (How many people will be part of organizing your LP event?

                      Hey sorry, looks like I missed a post. As far as a dry erase board, I won't have one (way too much gear to transport as is), but you may consider signing up to give a talk. We had several people hanging out last year teaching people the intricacies of different locks and such, and I know I had a great time.

                      In fact, there were several of us who spent most of the "day-con" hours hanging out with the demo boards.

                      As far those helping out, the key figures are DOC, myself, and the entire dc719 crew. Every member of dc719 has put in a ton of effort on this from, hardware designs, lock testing, teaching, demo boards, software coding, staffing, etc., etc. So in other words, a lot!! :)

                      *DISCLAIMER* Members of the dc719 crew are not allowed to participate in any events. Just thought I'd mention it now before it was asked!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kai
                        As far as a dry erase board, I won't have one (way too much gear to transport as is)
                        If you could have some scratch paper and pens/pencils handy, that would be cool. Sometimes Libraries, Universities, K-12 schools, Kinkos, and "Internet Cafe" keep recycled paper bins for people who print things they do not want... (paper free for the pickin'.) If you dont't have pencils/pens, I can bring something. The advantage of diagrams is demonstrated through the metaphor "a picture is worth a thousand words." :-)

                        you may consider signing up to give a talk. We had several people hanging out last year teaching people the intricacies of different locks and such, and I know I had a great time.
                        I do not like the media or being recorded in film, but have no problem with working in small groups. The techniques for teaching things like this work best in small scale. Anyone shown these teaching techniques are free to redistribute the information and content if they are willing to give a talk.

                        As far those helping out, the key figures are DOC, myself, and the entire dc719 crew. Every member of dc719 has put in a ton of effort on this from, hardware designs, lock testing, teaching, demo boards, software coding, staffing, etc., etc. So in other words, a lot!!
                        If I tried to make 20 "warded picks" (duplicated) for the same warded lock would that cover it? Trying to grind out more than 20 would take a really long time... (Though they are functional, they are primarily conceptual in form and very illustrative to help people understand how to make their own for variations on other sized warded locks.)

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          handcuff competition

                          wow... i REALLY dig the idea of handcuffs being a side-event. i'm pretty certain that i couldn't get out of a pair of the rigids but a traditional, "chain" type handcuff might be possible, if at least one of the cuffs had a keyhole facing my fingers.

                          anyone with ties to law enforcement who knows if there are specifics as to how cuffs are supposed to be applied to a detained person?

                          perhaps let some people compete in a team category... put two people put on a pair of chairs next to each other to simulate the backseat of a car and see if they can work together with one or more keys to get each other unbound. :)
                          Last edited by Deviant Ollam; June 8, 2004, 10:02. Reason: clarification
                          "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                          - Trent Reznor

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
                            anyone with ties to law enforcement who knows if there are specifics as to how cuffs are supposed to be applied to a detained person?
                            [Disclaimer: am not a law enforcement officer]

                            From what I have seen locally (state/local), they are supposed to be locked behind the back, though the officer may sometimes offer a courtesy to the person (if the officer believes it is a consideration) and lock them in front of the person. Sometimes, this is done for white-collar criminals, or non-violent, and you can see them carrying a sweater or piece of clothing over ther wrists to hide their bening escorted off the job. ("As-if" uniformed officers walking you out the door is something that won't be noticed.)

                            As for double-locking, I do not know what the policies are, but have seen officers use the double-lock when they believe the person may harm themselves by moving in such a way as to cause the cuffs to get progressively tighter, or if they expect risk for the person to pick their way out of the locks.)

                            In the ride-alongs where I was a passenger to scenes, I noted the officers did not seem to care which direction the keyholes were facing.

                            As for officers carrying the rigid-style of handcuffs... not so common any more. Many have a defect. Google for it, or ask me in person. (No PM on this one plz.)

                            Edit: Added content above in [] and below]

                            If you are arrested and placed in handcuffs, and think it would be a wise idea to pick the handcuffs and hand them back to the officers as a joke (even with no intention of running) you may want to re-think that; removing cuffs may place you at risk for attempted escape of police custody. (Some jokes are not worth the cost/risk.)
                            Last edited by TheCotMan; June 8, 2004, 10:15.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
                              wow... i REALLY dig the idea of handcuffs being a side-event. i'm pretty certain that i couldn't get out of a pair of the rigids but a traditional, "chain" type handcuff might be possible, if at least one of the cuffs had a keyhole facing my fingers.

                              anyone with ties to law enforcement who knows if there are specifics as to how cuffs are supposed to be applied to a detained person?

                              perhaps let some people compete in a team category... put two people put on a pair of chairs next to each other to simulate the backseat of a car and see if they can work together with one or more keys to get each other unbound. :)
                              Okay, I wasn't going to post but after thinking awhile thought it might be best to so there weren't any posts with misinformation in them. If you wonder how I got these please feel free to askme, I don't mind.


                              Disclaimer: None (These are actual Colorado Springs Police Department General Orders, open for public viewing)

                              GO #.20 Procedure Immediately Following Arrest


                              When an arrest has been made, the officer making the arrest will immediately, if possible and practical, do the following:

                              3) Handcuff the offender, behind the back, if there is a danger of escape or if the prisoner poses a danger to the safety of the officer or others. Handcuffs will be used as a restraint in any situation where such action is considered warranted. Handcuffs may be used any time by an officer. All felony arrestees will be handcuffed before being placed in a Department vehicle.


                              GO #.60 Restraining Devices-Special Situations


                              Use of restraining devices other than handcuffs, such as leg restraints, is governed by considerations of safety for the officers and others, and shall be at the transporting officer's discretion. Officers should take care, when transporting handicapped or injured arrestees, to use these devices humanely, but should not assume that an injury or a handicap rules out their use if the officer reasonably believes an arrestee may pose a threat to any person's safety.

                              Officer(s) are prohibited from the use of Hog Tie restraints on any person. Hog-tying is defined as the practice of securing a subject with a chain, rope, or other device between a leg (ankle) restraint and connected to handcuffs behind the back.

                              Hobbling the legs or ankles is acceptable, as long as they are not connected to the handcuffs behind the back. The restraint on the ankles should allow for at least an 18" step when walking, allowing the subject to walk a modified normal step, but limiting the subject's ability to kick or escape custody.
                              "It is difficult not to wonder whether that combination of elements which produces a machine for labor does not create also a soul of sorts, a dull resentful metallic will, which can rebel at times". Pearl S. Buck

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