Job Outsourcing? Future for us nerds?

[xKelbax]

To the conclusion I have come to is we are all fucked in the ass when it comes to a computer science type job (Not BestBuy). Or am I wrong?

[d3ad1ysp0rk]

You're wrong. I'm 16 and I've made plenty programming already.

Sure, it's not 100k an hour jobs, but they're still out there, and if you get a good education, and you can code well, you'll be fine.

Outsourcing is good in some ways, it's getting rid of most the half assed schmuks that can't code worth anything..

[xKelbax]

You're wrong. I'm 16 and I've made plenty programming already.

Sure, it's not 100k an hour jobs, but they're still out there, and if you get a good education, and you can code well, you'll be fine.

Outsourcing is good in some ways, it's getting rid of most the half assed schmuks that can't code worth anything..

16? Good, I'm 15. So, how'd you find the jobs?

[alklloyd]

Hey, the NSA has a Kids Page...with Crypto Cat!
http://www.nsa.gov/kids/intro.htm
"As you go thru the web site, Crypto Cat will keep a watchful eye on you as you make and break our codes."
I bet he will!

Al

[Nimby]

So, we've got to worry more about a cat than big brother now? how ... ironic?

[murakami]

That's really awsome. Now we can get fucking China to mass produce half-assed missile programs.

"Oops, the missile accidentally landed in the wrong fucking country."

As opposed to our own half-assed missile program?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/ne...t-accuracy.htm

http://www.ceip.org/files/projects/n...triotPaper.pdf

http://lambda.eu.org/special/gulf/extraits.html

At least the Chinese will do it cheaper and Walmart will sell them.

[allentrace]

Oi even I am tired of conflicting political viewpoints. The issue of outsourcing is an apolitical one. Since we joined NAFTA the United States has done away with the tarriff American Manufacturers and Service providers no longer have that protection that other countries do. As long as other countries have workers willing to work for cheaper wages and lower healthcare/cost of living, then outsourcing will always be a problem. And I agree with Noid that eventually the companies will come back to the Unites States and not because of Tax incentives.

I have a slightly more optomistic view of things I think. I think some of the larger companies are going to realize that some of the short term 'soft' savings are going to turn into bigger costs down the road, causing them to pull back into our borders.

Initially it seemed like mana from heaven from a business perspective. Hire 3 C+ coders in Mumbai for the price of one college educated punk here in the US? Get an entire tech support call center for 20K a month? Too good to be true. Now, theres the obvious customer satisfaction issue. If Mr. and Mrs. Not-Tech-Savy Middle America dont like having to fight the uphill battle of explaining a problem they barely understand to a guy who can barely speak english, they are going to buy their next computer from a company that has a tech support staff in Tulsa. However, thats not where outsourcing is going to hurt American companies. A few unhappy customers will not affect the bottom line.

They're going to take it in the shorts from a business perspective. There have already been cases of companies outsourcing programming jobs to little companies in the 3rd world and not getting anything back, or getting broken code that doesnt work. What are you gonna do about it? Fly to Deli? So companies then have to go back to domestic companies to finish their projects (or debug what they got), thus raising their bottom line. Theres also signifigant risk to the longevity of your company when you outsource. Not all these people are ethical. Most of these outsourcing companies are working for a lot of different people, including your compeditors. The possibility of one of these outsourcing shops selling your code to your compeditor are pretty good. Or, they may realize 'Hey, we're working on these projects for two competing companies, lets take both of them and create our own product'. Needless to say, as an InfoSec practioner, I cringe when a client tells me they are thinking of outsourcing their projects to other countries. You lose the confidentiality and integrity of your product. Who knows who else has your code after you send it halfway around the world. Finally theres also the overlooked potential for litigation. Israel recently outsourced the code to their missle guidance systems to IBM, IBM subcontracted an Egyptian company to do the actual code. Israel, upon hearing that a country that is basicaly their enemy, wrote their missle guidance system, had to then go and have their code audited. I'd be willing to bet cash money IBM picked the tab up for that fuckup.

I think eventually most domestic corps will realize that the long term hard costs outweigh the initial soft savings. Sure you save a few bucks initialy on programmers, but in the long term you expose yourself to much higher costs. I think after a few big corps learn a valuable lesson, we'll see outsourcing start to go away. Especially as countries like India start to emerge as competing nations.

The US instituted Civil Service Reforms to stop the gross misuse of the American Workforce particularly women and children and I doubt that will change. Certainly not to compete with outsourcing of jobs. You cannot make American Corporations work for the betterment of Americans. I mean all of us here know that the American Corporation is a vast evil conglomorate like the trusts if the 1890's. And we all know that American consumerism and capitalism is bad. So it is better off that they are leaving. Right? (Sarcasm intended)

[murakami]

And I agree with Noid that eventually the companies will come back to the Unites States and not because of Tax incentives.

What happens when the software companies are no longer US companies? I see that as bigger threat than outsourcing.

[allentrace]

What happens when the software companies are no longer US companies? I see that as bigger threat than outsourcing.

Not sure Murakami, And I agree with you on this. I am first and foremost an American and a centralist and I say that lets worry about the US first and fuck the rest. I do not want US defense contracts (or anything else) given out to foreign software and tech companies because I doubt they will be thinking longterm US Goals. But right now that is not a major problem and hopefully it will never be. But in case it does become an issue I will be one of the first to protest. That is why when Clinton (Not meant as a political statement) gave the Chinese Flight capability to their nukes, I started gettting into politics because I want the US superior and I am sure every other country wants the same, the same as us. That is why I am not a believe in the UN because ultimately it can only fail.

[astcell]

Recently a bunch of illegals sued walmart for back pay. Of course illegals work under the table and get paid off the books, saving their employer a few bucks. Now they want rightful pay. That will kill the market for illegals.

Same with outsourcing. Everything is made in China in basically slave labor. One day when they demand fair wages, work will come back to America. Assuming we still know how to do anything.

[ndex]

What happens when the software companies are no longer US companies? I see that as bigger threat than outsourcing.

There are many (good) software companies that are not US companies.

Being an american software company doesn't guarantee quality or lower costs either *cough*Micro$oft*cough*.

The threat is neither outsourcing nor offshore competition, the problem is when you don't have a market for your goods. We need global markets for US goods and increasingly, the rest of the world is turning away from US products because of US arrogant foreign policy and the economic imperialism of US Agrobusiness and Energy companies.

The Pony Express was once a great idea and there was a booming future for cowboys who wanted to make some good money. People wanted to get a job with this great new service. Within months telegraph technology took the boom right out of that emerging industry.

The answer is not to fight it but to adapt and survive. It's easy to get bitter when you lose your job to offshore workers because they'll work for 1/3 of what you cost the company (it happened to me). I'd rather have those people working and potentially buying goods that I participate in delivering to market than throw the rest of the planet into the turmoil of poverty and wallow like a sow in wretched excess with diminishing markets and hostile global trading partners.

Adapt and survive.


xKelbax:
I've known quite a few gifted programmers who were under 18 and gainfully employed. You do not appear to possess a sufficient grasp of the english language to communicate without profanity. It is unlikely that you will be able to find employment among educated engineers with a filthy mouth and a bad attitude...

I interview people for software positions all the time. You must be able to communicate effectively with the english language long before someone will consider risking an expensive software project on your unproven skills. Software is big business. Nobody cares about your ego. They don't care how cool you think you are and they don't care if you can hack the Gibson. They want reliable contributors with excellent references and documented skills who will add more value to the product and the company than they cost.... It's called business.

[xKelbax]

xKelbax:
I've known quite a few gifted programmers who were under 18 and gainfully employed. You do not appear to possess a sufficient grasp of the english language to communicate without profanity. It is unlikely that you will be able to find employment among educated engineers with a filthy mouth and a bad attitude...

I interview people for software positions all the time. You must be able to communicate effectively with the english language long before someone will consider risking an expensive software project on your unproven skills. Software is big business. Nobody cares about your ego. They don't care how cool you think you are and they don't care if you can hack the Gibson. They want reliable contributors with excellent references and documented skills who will add more value to the product and the company than they cost.... It's called business.

Um..ok? Theres a difference between casual and professional you know.

[murakami]

There are many (good) software companies that are not US companies.

The threat is neither outsourcing nor offshore competition, the problem is when you don't have a market for your goods.

I couldn't agree with you more. I have seen two US firms bought by Indian firms that were once subcontractors to them. The employees did not see it coming because of typical American hubris. Only core high level programming staff, sales, and onsite support were retained. The rest were let go. I think that this will become a trend that will catch American tech workers with their pants down yet again.

The assumption that jobs sent overseas will return to meet customer satisfaction is false. Some call centers (such as Dell business support) were brought back, but that is mostly an indicator of rough patches in execution rather than a future trend.

American workers in manufacturing used to make a better than average living wage but the number of jobs and their earning capacity has diminished over the last 40 years. Technology workers are experiencing that trend, and probably at a more accelerated rate. Adapt and survive is a defeatist strategy, I prefer innovate and prosper.

[ndex]

Um..ok? Theres a difference between casual and professional you know.

Yes, professionals get paid.


murakami:

I agree with innovate and prosper as a personal creed but there is a wide gulf between those capable of innovation and the sheeple who must follow because they cannot lead.