does a "Snap Gun" really work??

[L34ndr4]

i wanted to buy one, but i dont know if they are really useful or fast like the info. says???

[TheCotMan]

i wanted to buy one, but i dont know if they are really useful or fast like the info. says???

Yes. They can work. How well they work depends on how much time you invest practicing with them. Some people find they work better than picks, but I am not one of them. I have a pick gun and found it worked on certain locks very well, but on many locks, it did not work so well.

They are supposed to work by flicking the bottom pins so hard and fast against the top/middle pins that the pins separate, giving an opportunity to rotate the keyhole/plug in the cyl.

It is also possible to make these, but they are not, "magical machines that will unlock things for you." They require investment of time and experience too.

They can be fast (when they work.) They are more difficult to hide, and attract more attention from Law Enforcement, and some places require you to be a locksmith or have legal reason to have them or you can be arrested for possession of them.

[octalpus]

Also, you can't use them in the contest.

[Gadsden]

I have read in more than one place that it can fuck up the lock as well. Of course.. so can picks if it is a shitty lock..

[alklloyd]

I have read in more than one place that it can fuck up the lock as well. Of course.. so can picks if it is a shitty lock..

I'm not a LP expert, but I always heard it was the electric ones that can screw up a lock...but the regular ones usually don't.

Al

[TheCotMan]

I'm not a LP expert, but I always heard it was the electric ones that can screw up a lock...but the regular ones usually don't.

If the springs are weak, rusted, or slightly damaged, electric pics, picks guns, and "raking" (subset of "picking by hand") all risk damaging the springs. Raking further risks damaging the pins by rubbing off the metal on the lower parts of the bottom pin because most picks/rakes are made of steel which is a harder metal than most pins-- however, it takes a lot of raking on the same lock to wear down the pins, and pins can be replaced. Al that a worn pin does, is make it so the original key no longer pushes one or more pins to the sheer/shear line. (However, if you are raking that much, you should be picking instead.)

Once a spring is broken (especially on old or cheap locks) there is risk for parts of the spring the jamb into the top pin, causing those pins to be stuck.

Attempting to use electric pick, pick guns and raking on locks which are NOT pin tumbler locks has a greater chance of damaging those locks too. (e.g. wafer or "ACE" aka "Tubular" for a different reason.)

With pin tumbler locks, a broken spring, by itself is little worry. If the lock was properly installed, the pins run along the top of the keyhole, and gravity will let them fall back into place if the spring is the only thing broken in the lock.

However, if the pins are not in the top of the keyway, or the pins have drag due to damage on their sides, then gravity may not be enough to drop the pins back down.

In "good" locks, the pins and spring can be replaced by an informed citizen, or locksmith.

[alklloyd]

Thanks, Cotman...very informative post. I had no idea regular pick guns could do
that. I've been around, but I'm a noob to LP.

Al

[TheCotMan]

Thanks, Cotman...very informative post. I had no idea regular pick guns could do
that. I've been around, but I'm a noob to LP.

I am a newbie too! :-)

Most of the people in the lockpicking contest could probably wipe the walls with me. Though I have some knowledge of locks, I don't have the time to invest in just lockpicking to become really good at it.

I remember the conversation that you, astcell and I had in the vendor room over by Grifter's table... Too bad, our discussion was so *rudely* interrupted by this guy...

Heh heh. He really seemed under the influence of something.

[Deviant Ollam]

while everything that's been said thus far about pick guns is correct (that they tend to take a long time for one to gain expertise, that they can damage the pins of older or cheaper locks) no one has mentioned something related to pick guns... a technique called "bump keying"

first pioneered (as far as i am aware) by Barry Wels and his associates in TOOOL (the open organization of lockpickers, based out of the netherlands) this technique closely duplicates the physics involved in pick gun operation but with much less cost and difficulty.

see the section on bump keying in my presentaiton slides. link (forgive my slow cable modem speed)

[TheCotMan]

... a technique called "bump keying"

first pioneered (as far as i am aware) by Barry Wels and his associates in TOOOL (the open organization of lockpickers, based out of the netherlands) this technique closely duplicates the physics involved in pick gun operation but with much less cost and difficulty.

see the section on bump keying in my presentaiton slides. link (forgive my slow cable modem speed)

Use of bump keys has been discussed in locksmithing forums and created a lot of excitement when people reported how easy they were. [First place I heard about it was http://www.clearstar.com/ but I don't recall any mention of who created the technique.]

Very nice slide show. Lots of good information. :-) [I would suggest it as a good thing to read by anyone looking to start lockpicking. Good text content. Nice images and animation to show the mechanics at work. Very cool of you to make it available.]

[Deviant Ollam]

Very nice slide show. Lots of good information. :-) [I would suggest it as a good thing to read by anyone looking to start lockpicking. Good text content. Nice images and animation to show the mechanics at work. Very cool of you to make it available.]

thanks, man. i gave this as a talk at ShmooCon and it was pretty well-received. (since then i've been asked to present the lecture elsewhere. i was up at West Point last week trying to fill the cadet's heads with the understanding that security is supposed to be an open enterprise and is achieved through public disclosure as opposed to obscurity and secrecy.)

i would really love to give the talk at this year's DefCon, too, as long as it's not stepping on DC719's toes. we'll see if i get put on the schedule or not.

[TheCotMan]

i would really love to give the talk at this year's DefCon, too, as long as it's not stepping on DC719's toes. we'll see if i get put on the schedule or not.

Previous years, there have been more than one lockpicking presentation. One year I think we had the first LPCON (game), an introduction to lockpicking presentation and an advanced lockpicking presentation all scheduled for the same DefCon and provided by different people/groups. Attendees seemed to like this.

I can't speak for DC719, or even the goons, but from what I have observed, different presentations on the same topics seem to be more readily accepted when there are significant differences in their coverage.

So, the tough part is to find out who (if anyone) will be speaking on Lockpicking and see if your presentations would focus on things their presentation won't (and the other way around) then submit papers for both presentations.

Side note:
I checked out your link to TOOOL and that is nice. (They even have a presentation on bumpkeys in a .wmv file (636.858,180 bytes)
Too bad it looks like some of the TOOOL people will be at What the Hack that takes place the same time as DefCon.

[Deviant Ollam]

Too bad it looks like some of the TOOOL people will be at What the Hack that takes place the same time as DefCon.

yeah, i was dissapointed to learn of the conflict. i really wanted to make it to both. ah well, cross fingers and hope for the best in a couple years when the HAL crew does their thing again.

[lil_freak]

i would really love to give the talk at this year's DefCon, too, as long as it's not stepping on DC719's toes. we'll see if i get put on the schedule or not.

We have toes??? Oh, wait never mind I got side tracked.

You wouldn't be stepping on any of our toes. However, you may want to contact KaiGoth on the subject seeing as how he is the LPCON Master.

[alklloyd]

Too bad it looks like some of the TOOOL people will be at What the Hack that takes place the same time as DefCon.

That sucks. Most of the DC 404 core crew will be there too. It'll be up to me to gather a ragtag band of...oh, sorry. That's Battlestar Galactica.

Al