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  • Beginning Picking

    Couple things -- What would you guys suggust for a first set from http://www.southord.com/?

    Where can I buy a bump key? Anyone know?
    Even if bump keys will not be allowed, I would still be interested in finding one :)

    Thanks guys,
    Poz

  • #2
    Originally posted by Pozican
    Couple things -- What would you guys suggust for a first set from http://www.southord.com/?
    Depends on what you want.

    There is/was an IPC "Jack Knife" pick set where you get a tension wrench, 2 snakes, 1 diamond pick and 1 conventional pick, all in a small package that stores away nicely. However, when a snake or pick breaks, you have no replacement.

    My suggestion for the beginner:
    3 tension wrenches: one spring-based (either with a spring, or "feather touch") and one small non-spring (old-style) and one larger non-spring (old style)
    3 snakes for raking (1 with a single "bump", 1 with a double "bump" and 1 with a triple "bump)
    1 diamond pick
    3 picks (1 with deep bend/curve, 1 with moderate bend/curve, 1 with short bend/curve)

    I've never really used the half-moon, of full moon, or double-moon much.

    IMO, the minimum pick set should have 3 items:
    1 pick
    1 snake
    1 tension wrench

    Where can I buy a bump key? Anyone know?
    Even if bump keys will not be allowed, I would still be interested in finding one :)
    Generally, a bump key is made for a specific lock.

    You take a key blank, and cut it with extreme changes in depth near the lowest point of the key. The key must fiit the keyway of the lock it is intended.

    This means keyblanks for each "style" keyway you wish to have a bumpkey (for the most part) and this can mean you would need lots of bump keys for many lots of different locks.

    As for finding one, you can make one by hand using a file, or you can pay a locksmith to make you bump keys for specific locks by asking them to cut a key to code, and then provide them with the codes. for the bump keys. (Usually single digit values specify depth for each pin location on the key.)

    Comment


    • #3
      I'll look around for a lockset like that....

      I talked to a couple locksmiths today, and each of them told me they would not make a 999 key, due to the fact that I dont' have the lock to match it (I considered finding 5 locks with a 9 pin and combining heh)

      So -- I asked if they would sell me a blank, yes they will -- so now I need the depth sizes, which I had issues trying to find, and I also need the spacing inbetween pins -- which is AGAIN, hard to find -- Anyone know a locksmith?

      lol,
      Thanks man,
      Poz

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Pozican
        so now I need the depth sizes, which I had issues trying to find, and I also need the spacing inbetween pins -- which is AGAIN, hard to find
        Get a micrometer, and:
        * measure the distance between pins. (Can be done with the key through (average of all troughs/vallyes) divided by (the number of troughs on the key minus one), or between two adjacent troughs/valleys.)
        * Measure the distance for the "starting cut" as measured from the stock/base of the key.
        Then, use google to find:
        A page like this (See table at bottom.) or a page like this one. Both have tables or listings for depths.

        Anyone know a locksmith?
        [smartass comment]I am sure someone knows a locksmith.[/smartass]
        Last edited by TheCotMan; July 9, 2005, 20:59.

        Comment


        • #5
          Bump Key Action

          I found http://www.toool.nl/ to have a great white paper as well as a 600 meg video on the topic. The links are on the right hand side of the main page.
          PGP key: dtangent@defcon.org valid 2020 Jan 15, to 2024 Jan 01 Fingerprint: BC5B CD9A C609 1B6B CD81 9636 D7C6 E96C FE66 156A

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Dark Tangent
            I found http://www.toool.nl/ to have a great white paper as well as a 600 meg video on the topic. The links are on the right hand side of the main page.
            Deviant Ollam has stated in this post intentions to provide content at DefCon on bump keys too, and also mentioned the toool site.

            If it is still up, check out Deviant Ollam's paper that was linked in that post-- it is pretty good.

            I downloaded a video from toool shortly after this post and if that video is the same video as the one I watched, it was worth the time to download and watch it.
            Too bad many TOOOL people seem to be going to What the Hack in competition with DefCon.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by TheCotMan
              If it is still up, check out Deviant Ollam's paper that was linked in that post-- it is pretty good.
              all my slides are still up (albeit, they are slightly older slides from the presentation i gave at West Point... my presentation at DefCon is going to be a LOT bigger -- i have 100+ slides now -- and encompass material and techniques i haven't demonstrated ever before) but i should point out that none of the papers linked to were written by me. the bump keying paper (which describes the new, "minimal movement" technique that is more effective and better for the locks, albeit more difficult to engineer) was written by the people in Toool's founding chapter in the Netherlands, not Toool-USA. And the other couple papers i reference are works by Matt Blaze, a terrific professor and lock enthusiast.
              "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
              - Trent Reznor

              Comment


              • #8
                Seventeen Piece Lock Pick Set
                The PXS-17 lock pick set is one of the finest available. It comes with an assortment of picks, everything necessary to pick any pin-tumbler lock, and includes a fully machined, interchangeable polished brass handle. This set is versatile, durable, and includes a rugged zippered leather case!

                Part Number - PXS-17

                http://www.southord.com/images/fullsize/PXS-17.jpg


                What do you guys think about that?
                Is there anything else I would need?

                thanks,
                Poz

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pozican
                  Seventeen Piece Lock Pick Set
                  The PXS-17 lock pick set is one of the finest available. It comes with an assortment of picks, everything necessary to pick any pin-tumbler lock, and includes a fully machined, interchangeable polished brass handle. This set is versatile, durable, and includes a rugged zippered leather case!

                  Part Number - PXS-17

                  http://www.southord.com/images/fullsize/PXS-17.jpg


                  What do you guys think about that?
                  Is there anything else I would need?

                  thanks,
                  Poz
                  I've got that set. It's ok, but I don't use most of the picks in it. I usually stick to the half diamond, snake and finger. Even then, I usually end up prefering my home made picks.

                  It's a good place to start, but you will end up adding more to it as your technique and style improve.
                  Never drink anything larger than your head!





                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by renderman
                    It's ok, but I don't use most of the picks in it ... It's a good place to start, but you will end up adding more to it as your technique and style improve.
                    i would agree with render 100% on that. typically every pick set i've ever seen has more stuff than i would use for the wide majority of locks i encounter. (and for the remaining unique locks, typically you're talking specialized tools... not some snowman ball pick or other pseudo-useless item included in a mid-size basic set)

                    like him, i've always purchased the bare minimum (due to budgetary reasons) and then heavily modded those tools and/or added to them with custom hardware. btw, i'll be discussing making picks and tools yourself with found items in the hands-on session that i hope to have after my talk (that is, if my talk gets moved from sunday afternoon to earlier on friday as has been planned)

                    even the most basic of sets has things i have no desire to tote around. i've even stripped apart my 5-piece jacknife set and changed around what picks are in that since i had no use for the ball pick and wanted an additional finger pin lifter.

                    start small, get the feel for it, and then (if you the type who likes hardware fabrication) experiment with making some of your own tools.

                    wasn't it qmark who won the first LPCON competition with entirely home made tools?
                    "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                    - Trent Reznor

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      What kind of locks do people recommend practicing on? Unfortunately the lock on my door over the summer is ridiculously difficult (really deep, and is an always locked "turn key opens door" type) so I'm going to pick up some padlocks to practice with at work. Any cheap lock do for a begineer?

                      -zac
                      %54%68%69%73%20%69%73%20%6E%6F%74%20%68%65%78

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by pr0zac0x2a
                        What kind of locks do people recommend practicing on? Unfortunately the lock on my door over the summer is ridiculously difficult (really deep, and is an always locked "turn key opens door" type) so I'm going to pick up some padlocks to practice with at work. Any cheap lock do for a begineer?
                        Pin tumbler padlocks are cheap and easy to find. They are portable and something you can pick while at work on a break, or elsewhere. (Make sure laws in your state/city/country do not forbid picking in public.)

                        They are also easier in many cases. Then you can move up to the more secure padlocks, and then play with door locks-- picking a door-mounted lock is a bit different from picking a padlock as your body must adjust to the lock instead of the other way around.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
                          ...wasn't it qmark who won the first LPCON competition with entirely home made tools?
                          Yep, that was Q. Made a set from street sweeper bristles. Also brought a "pick gun" last year made out of a Crest Spin Brush Pro. Was actually pretty cool. The tine he was using was to short, so I gave him one of mine to test with, but I never did hear how well it worked. Will have to ask him this year.

                          As far as buying sets, I have the PXS-62 and the PXS-17, and would agree with most of the others on the fact that I only use a few. Although other than the snake, there is really nothing I use from the smaller set. I use a slim tine hook with a rounded tip, and a bent-edged half diamond (as well as the rounded tip version) the most I would bet. For me, the thinner the neck, the more comfortable the tool is to use. I guess I'm just sloppy, but I keep poppin that first pin with the fatter ones.

                          So on that note, I agree a small tool set is about all you really need once you have a feel for how you pick, but if you have an extra $50 that doesn't matter to you, buy a bigger set to experiment with.

                          I haven't played much since last year, so enjoying getting the chance to play with picks again. Really fell in love with that slim rounded hook over the last few weeks.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by pr0zac0x2a
                            What kind of locks do people recommend practicing on? ... Any cheap lock do for a begineer?
                            your two best friends when starting out are Kwikset and Master. Buy the most ass-tacular doorknob lock you can find from Kwikset (literally, one grade of security above "bathroom lock" a.k.a. "privacy lock") and fiddle with that. make sure you get a doorknob style and not a deadbolt (the forces required are an issue with deadbolts) and don't worry about the size. you can take the whole thing apart and just play with the lock cylinder.

                            (there was going to be a link here to the Home Depot's online product catalog but their web site licks my asshole and i can't find a link that just bloody works. search for their Kwikset Model 94002-064 Internet/Catalog # 900600)


                            a good padlock would be your garden variety steel master with the little brass keys. (make sure you get a full size lock, however, not the ultra tiny ones since they typically have super small keyways and are a pain to insert tools)

                            also, be aware of the differences beween warded locks and regular pin tumbler locks. something like Home Depot's master Model 3UPLF (Internet/Catalog # 877913) would do the trick...


                            but, in general, if you're just starting out learning, i'm a big fan of the "lock picking school in a box" type kit...


                            more info regarding that training set in post #20 of this thread.
                            Last edited by Deviant Ollam; July 11, 2005, 11:56.
                            "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                            - Trent Reznor

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TheCotMan
                              Pin tumbler padlocks are cheap and easy to find. They are portable and something you can pick while at work on a break, or elsewhere. (Make sure laws in your state/city/country do not forbid picking in public.)

                              They are also easier in many cases. Then you can move up to the more secure padlocks, and then play with door locks-- picking a door-mounted lock is a bit different from picking a padlock as your body must adjust to the lock instead of the other way around.
                              But remember to look at the keyway on the padlocks. Some of 'em are incredibly tiny and add in a whole new set of difficulty concerns you don't want went just starting.

                              I've found that carrying just a cylinder in my pocket (no, I'm not happy to see you) is even easier than the padlock for portability.

                              I'd also highly recommend the FAQs over at www.lockpicking101.com. Some of those people post here and are highly knowledgeable on the subject, but most of your questions will already be answered over there.

                              Edit:

                              Geez Deviant, flying on your responses today! Next time I'll wait a little while longer. :)

                              This is kinda cool, depending on how much cash ya got...

                              http://www.lockpickshop.com/p-Lockpi...tion-plus.html

                              Last edited by Kai; July 11, 2005, 11:51.

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