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  • #16
    Originally posted by skroo
    Thank you, next show's at ten :) Incidentally, I heard that VWOA just OK'd biodiesel up to B20 for the TDi-engined vehicles without invalidating your warranty. I don't really know specifics on it, but it may be something to look into.
    WOW! I don't have my beetle anymore, but I've been wanting to get another one and that right there is a damned convincing argument.
    the fresh princess of 1338

    What did I do to make you think I give a shit?

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    • #17
      Originally posted by skroo
      Much better than their naturally-aspirated counterparts. The last turbodiesel I drove was in a Hummer H1 Alpha ... I'd recommend taking Peugeot's turbodiesels and comparing them against the non-turbo models. The difference is like night and day.
      are there any major modifications to the functionality in modern turbodiesels that would affect their ability to run on bio fuel? can turbodiesels perform as alternative energy vehicles or is a standard diesel superior in any way for this?
      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
      - Trent Reznor

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
        are there any major modifications to the functionality in modern turbodiesels that would affect their ability to run on bio fuel?
        Normally, no. It's a good idea to check with the manufacturer first, but as a rule of thumb B20 is generally considered safe. YMMV.

        can turbodiesels perform as alternative energy vehicles or is a standard diesel superior in any way for this?
        You can most certainly use turbodiesels as alt-fuel vehicles; in general, turbodiesels are infinitely preferable to naturally-aspirated diesels due to the better combustion and higher power outputs they achieve. Internal differences between a turbodiesel and nat-asp are usually none, but again YMMV and check with the manufacturer.

        FWIW, every new Jeep Liberty CRD leaves the factory with B5 in the tank - and they're running a 2.8-litre common-rail turbodiesel. Mercedes' older five- and six-cylinder TDs have also long been popular with VO conversion enthusiasts, and I know of one person running a 1987 Peugeot 505 TD on biodiesel and VO.

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        • #19
          Re: What about HPV?

          Kind of old, I know. I just wanted to through this out.
          Originally posted by TheCotMan
          Nice article and response.
          What about Hydrogen Powered Vehicles?
          The biggest problems I see ATM for these are:
          [chop]
          * Compressed Hydroigen canister with compressed Oxygen canisters could prove to be explosive under the right conditions. (e.g. gasoline ICE collides with HPV, and gasoline car catches fire, to heat oxygen and hydrogen tanks in HPV car)
          * The most likely source for Hydrogen/Oxygen seems to be water, but energy is required to split the bonds, which is similar to the "rechargin station" issues, but unlike true electrical charging systems, Hydrogen/Oxygen bottling can take place near hydroelectric plants, and fuel can be shipped.
          [chop]
          So, what about HPV? (Hydrogen Powered Vehicles)
          What if someone were to come up with the idea to develop a "conversion plant" of some kind thats about the size of a six-pack. That way you would only need one cannister of H2O. What this "plant" would do is rip one part Hydrogen from the water and use that for fuel. At which point you would have HO. Then recycle it to rip out the other part Hydrogen. The emmisions would be Oxygen.

          I'm not saying that this is currently possible, seeing that the standard size of a "conversion plant" have been reduced to the size of a walk-in fridge last I heard. But how feasable would this be if someone could come up with a device that small?

          Honestly, I really wish I knew the proper term for a "conversion plant" in this scenerio.
          This is my sig. No, I don't want another.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by sys-error
            What if someone were to come up with the idea to develop a "conversion plant" of some kind thats about the size of a six-pack. That way you would only need one cannister of H2O. What this "plant" would do is rip one part Hydrogen from the water and use that for fuel. At which point you would have HO. Then recycle it to rip out the other part Hydrogen. The emmisions would be Oxygen.
            "Electrolysis" is a name for the process where the bonds of the Hydrogen to the Oxygen in water are broken. A device to do this in a crude fashion can be done with a 6volt battery, two wires, and the cores from dead AA sized batteries, and a small amount of water with a good ionic additive to enhance electron flow and conductivity.

            A problem with having such a device in the home, is one of decentralization of electrical use, and efficiency and another one is safety. With a large number of power generation plants using "dirty fuels" (such as fossil fules) to generate power, you have the problem outlined by skroo (above) where waste is still being produced.

            Also, electrolysis to break bonds of Hydrogen from Oxygen in a water molecule is expensive (energy-wise.) Consider how explosive igniting H2(g) and O2(g) can be, and how much energy is given off... now consider that energy (and probably more) will bre required to break the bonds of Hydrogen from Oxygen to produce the same volume of gases used when the original explosion was created.

            Generally, smaller operation are less efficient than large-scale operations. There is also a cost in transmission of electricity over distances to houses.

            However, gasses are transportable in canisters. A "gas bottling plant" could be located next to solar power, electrical generation plants, hydroelectric generation systems, and even wave-power systems along coastlines, and air-turbine/windmill driven electrical generation plants-- effectively located next to "clean power generation systems."

            If distribution of gasses is done with vehicles that also use the same gas, then transportation costs may be similar to desiel/gasoline.

            I'm not saying that this is currently possible, seeing that the standard size of a "conversion plant" have been reduced to the size of a walk-in fridge last I heard. But how feasable would this be if someone could come up with a device that small?
            Such a device could be built in the home, in a sort of ghetto-hacker fashion, and adding to the size/pricetag would only allow for better purity and safety. The most expensive parts would probably be the compressor(s) and any safety system. Maintenance may also be necessary depending on how pure the water was that was being used (except for the ionic additive which could have damaging effects to parts.)

            Honestly, I really wish I knew the proper term for a "conversion plant" in this scenerio.
            I don't know. Someone will come up with a name. Probably using a partial name from "electrolysis" or misuse "hydrolysis" to make "Hydrolisine Fuel System" or "Electrolysine Refueling System" and then trademark it.
            Last edited by TheCotMan; August 16, 2005, 23:41.

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            • #21
              Hybreds are Lame.

              too small.

              cant do anything with them (hauling , pulling, off roading, nothing)

              get a real vehicle.. Something with big tires and 4 wheel drive.


              only small vehicle i like is honda's

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              • #22
                Originally posted by MidwestMale
                get a real vehicle.. Something with big tires and 4 wheel drive.


                only small vehicle i like is honda's
                I think you may have missed the entire point of the topic, which is rather hard due to the large amount of on topic posts about generally the same thing (alternative fuels and hybrids), but alas, you did it.

                Those "real vehicles" you talk of now have insanely bad gas mileage along with the older ones having just as bad emmisions. If you don't work in construction or on a farm, you should be driving a midsize car that gets 30mpg+. Oh, and if you live in the same neighborhood as another employee you work with, you should be car pooling. It's just the intelligent thing to do.
                - Programmer -

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by MidwestMale
                  Something with big tires and 4 wheel drive.
                  Here ya go!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by TheCotMan
                    A problem with having such a device in the home, is one of decentralization of electrical use, and efficiency and another one is safety. With a large number of power generation plants using "dirty fuels" (such as fossil fules) to generate power, you have the problem outlined by skroo (above) where waste is still being produced.
                    I don't think people are really "hiding" the emissions of ZEV; everyone should be aware that the energy has to come from somewhere. The nice thing about switching to something that relies on electricity is that it so well-suited to centralizing power production (upgrade a few major sources and everyone, everywhere benefits) and diversifying energy sources. Furthermore, as you point out, "smaller operation are less efficient than large-scale operations" (although there are some efficient small-scale electrical solutions).

                    Unfortunately, we haven't developed a great way to actually move everyone to electricity yet. Hydrogen produced from electrolysis is an interesting idea, but it is, as you say, quite expensive energy-wise. (Biological production of hydrogen is an interesting idea, but so are many other pipe dreams.)

                    The great thing about biodiesel, for those that didn't catch it the first time, is that it requires very little effort to implement and provides a dramatic reduction in the use of non-renewable fuels. It is not, however, the "answer" (not that people are claiming it is).

                    PS: I enjoyed your implementation of subscripts in the limited forum software.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by skroo
                      while it looks sorta spiffy... how much can a person really do with that X-90? i mean, the tires barely fit within the wheel wells while it's sitting still. the axle articulation must be limited... the slightest bumps or uneven ground and the vehicle will be shaving off pounds of rubber up against the fenders and body. i see that some lift was installed... but it just looks like a squeeze to me.
                      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                      - Trent Reznor

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Deviant Ollam
                        while it looks sorta spiffy... how much can a person really do with that X-90? i mean, the tires barely fit within the wheel wells while it's sitting still.
                        Yeah, but that's largely because the (undoubtedly-proud) owner didn't understand that larger tyres = less articulation - unless, of course, you trim fenders, wheel wells, etc., none of which he did.

                        They'er basically a Suzuki Vitara underneath, so off-road they're about comparable. I don't care if it can run rings around a Pinzgauer, though, it's too much of a Barbie Car to be seen in. Or near. Or possibly in the same county as.

                        the axle articulation must be limited...
                        Front's independent, rear's a live axle (IIRC). I'm personally not a big fan of IFS off-road, but have owned IFS 4x4s in the past (Lada Niva, Nissan Patrol) and they did OK. It's just that in comparison to my current Jeep and past Land-Rovers it doesn't feel quite... *Right*. Then again, I am contemplating getting another Subaru Brat to use as a beater econobox / light trail use machine, so I probably shouldn't get too uppity about IFS. It'd also be fun to do something like this to it just for sheer WTF value.

                        the slightest bumps or uneven ground and the vehicle will be shaving off pounds of rubber up against the fenders and body. i see that some lift was installed... but it just looks like a squeeze to me.
                        He probably didn't install a body lift as well - then again, it looks like a pavement princess so probably doesn't matter.

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                        • #27
                          I had a co-worker here who had a beautiful truck with an off-road package and actually used it. One day, he went to see if he could get bigger tires put on. The guy at the store asked him (with a straight face), "Well... here's a question... do you turn much?"
                          the fresh princess of 1338

                          What did I do to make you think I give a shit?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by theprez98
                            skroo: You didn't do any research for that reply, did you? ;)
                            Oh but he did. ;)

                            Diesel motorcycles. F1 Engineering makes the conversions for the Marine Corps to turn a Kawasaki KLR 650 into a diesel bike. My gas KLR 650 gets about 55MPG while the diesel one pulls around 110MPG. They claim it can run on biodiesel as well (and kerosene etc etc).

                            Check it out: http://www.f1engineering.com/diesel%20bike%20specs.html

                            They set a new worlds record for diesel powered motorcycle with their experimental turbo diesel bike. They were working on a civilian one that was supposed to come out in 2005 (it was on their website), but now there is no mention of it... too bad.

                            -John D

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by John D
                              Diesel motorcycles. F1 Engineering makes the conversions for the Marine Corps to turn a Kawasaki KLR 650 into a diesel bike. My gas KLR 650 gets about 55MPG while the diesel one pulls around 110MPG. They claim it can run on biodiesel as well (and kerosene etc etc).
                              Funny you should mention diesel bikes - the first one I ever saw was in India in 1992. Damn thing had a *kickstart*, and given the 22:1 compression ratio coupled with my massive 145lb. frame, I could not get the bugger to start. Had to get someone who weighed around 250 to start it, and even he was scared that the backlash from the kickstart would snap his leg in two.

                              IIRC, it was an Enfield Indian, but it looks like I may be a bit off on that according to this.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Going back to plug-in EVs for a moment, guys (and skroo in particular), this article might be of interest:

                                Startup drills for oil in algae

                                Where most people see pond scum, Isaac Berzin sees oil--and a hedge against global warming.

                                Berzin is the founder and chief technology officer of GreenFuel Technologies, a Cambridge, Mass.-based start-up that has a novel approach to energy and pollution control.

                                Using technology licensed from a NASA project, GreenFuel builds bioreactors--in the shape of 3-meter-high glass tubes fashioned as a triangle--to grow algae. The algae are fed with sunlight, water and carbon-carrying emissions from power plants. The algae are then harvested and turned into biodiesel fuel.


                                There's more to the article, but that (at least to me) is the most important bit. I see three possible outcomes from Mr Berzin's work:

                                1) Conversion of current power plants from, say, coal or natural gas to biodiesel or biodiesel/dry biomass, possibly with an adjunct facility to convert harvested algae into biodiesel and dry-biomass fuels.

                                2) A further reduction in greenhouse-gas emissions (and possibly other emissions as well), especially if the bioreactors are installed in the post-scrubber smokestacks.

                                (Side note: It probably won't reduce the amount of greenhouse gases already in the air, we'd need a separate system for that.)

                                3) Increased popularity of straight EVs, biodiesel/EV hybrids, and straight biodiesel vehicles. (Not that using other forms of biodiesel - such as the substance extracted from the Brazilian diesel tree and various forms of vegetable oil - isn't practical, I'm just saying that algal biodiesel would provide another source of fuel).

                                Also, speaking of alternative energy technologies, has anyone mentioned the pros and cons of photovoltaic cell and/or wind-turbine arrays as an energy source?

                                Granted, they're probably not practical (at least, not right now) as a vehicular power source, but what about for the consumer electrical market?
                                (We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. Please, feel free to ignore this post if you so desire.)

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