brits announce "to hell with our WWII victory, totalitarianism is jolly good for us!"

[foxyboy]

We will do something about it....debate!

After that we'll just say hay-ho and forget all about it because we're a country that suffers from general apathy.

[ndex]

We will do something about it....debate!

After that we'll just say hay-ho and forget all about it because we're a country that suffers from general apathy.

No... You don't get it, we're suffering from FUD, not apathy. It's not that people don't care, they know they're generally powerless and most don't have the strenghth to risk their fragile existence for a noble cause doomed to failure.

Most of the regulars here know I'm one of the "old people" on this forum. My parents lived through the depression, WWII and McCarthy-ism. Each of these eras was associated with a corresponding shift in thinking about personal liberties and the threat or promise of technology. The shift is represented in the polarization that has formed in US politics. The 60's were really a backlash to the McCarthy era and the stoicism of WWII and the depression. Free love just sounded like such a nice idea that at some level mainstream folks just decided that clinging to the status quo was the best insulation from hopelessness.

Governments really never relinquished any of the emergency powers they granted themselves during times of crisis and now that 19 sexually repressed, hysterical, brainwashed, homosexual religious fanatics decided to turn commuter planes into flying suicide bombs there is suddenly an opportunity for the remaining facade of liberty to be dismantled and put in safe keeping. The "burning the village to save the village" mentality is alive and well and getting ready to repeal the Posse Comitatus Act in the US. It's not so much that people don't care about a world careening towards fascism, it's more that when given a choice between living in denial and protesting in the street most people are so wiped out from struggling to keep their families together that they just opt to try to do no harm and tell themselves if they remain very quiet the storm might just pass over the top of them and leave their world intact.

"Who could have predicted..."

[Deviant Ollam]

It's not so much that people don't care about a world careening towards fascism, it's more that when given a choice between living in denial and protesting in the street most people are so wiped out from struggling to keep their families together that they just opt to try to do no harm and tell themselves if they remain very quiet the storm might just pass over the top of them and leave their world intact.

that (not just the above line, but in fact the whole post) has to be one of the most beautifully-written, poetically-insightful comments i've ever read on an internet forum board. there is a very real likelihood that i'm going to co-opt a good portion of that explanation and use it when debating with other people about why there's so much political apathy at present. (attributed to you, naturally)

[allentrace]

that (not just the above line, but in fact the whole post) has to be one of the most beautifully-written, poetically-insightful comments i've ever read on an internet forum board. there is a very real likelihood that i'm going to co-opt a good portion of that explanation and use it when debating with other people about why there's so much political apathy at present. (attributed to you, naturally)

That is not just political apathy it is apathy in general, for example why did only one flight of passengers attempt to stop the 911 hijackers over Pennsylvania while the other flights did not knowing it would only mean their deaths sooner rather than later to which they had to know they were going to die what other purpose is there in hijacking a plane. Governments in truth only rule with the consent of the people, and the reason that fascist and totalitarian regimes stay in power is that people are unwilling to do anything to provoke a change. Some are willing to fight and the annals of history record them as patriots and heroes, take the student protests in Tiananmen Square or other such protest and you can see the reason that uprisings hardly garner a majority of support because people do not wish to die for what they believe in, they would rather live than die which to be fair is reasonable. Take the example of this thread it is hardly a life and death situation and as such will not require anyone throwing away their lives but it is also true that if you do not fight for what you believe in then your freedoms will disappear as well. As the governments seek to increase their own security by nature they must decrease the peoples liberty, which is a fine line they must walk, to which public accountability keeps them honest.

[Voltage Spike]

I seem to be a sucker for being trapped into off-topic conversations...

why did only one flight of passengers attempt to stop the 911 hijackers over Pennsylvania

That's a hard call to make, but the popular theories off the top of my head:

• One of the passengers discovered that the other flights had been crashed into buildings
• The hijackers of the PA flight were generally more violent and evoked more panic
• The hijacker piloting the PA flight did not have control of the plane which frightened the passengers into responding

they had to know they were going to die what other purpose is there in hijacking a plane

It makes little sense to hijack a plane and use it for the simple purpose of destroying that aircraft. History agrees.

Some are willing to fight and the annals of history record them as patriots and heroes

That is overly simplistic and obviously not true. How many dissidents have been executed by those in power without ever accomplishing anything? How many of those did history record?

I ask you this: is the person who dies attempting to rally support against the government really worse off than the lone soldier throwing himself against impossible odds? Oppressive governments stay in power partly because they organize against the opposition, and the people must likewise mastermind their own resistance movement if they hope to accomplish any real progress.

[allentrace]

That is overly simplistic and obviously not true. How many dissidents have been executed by those in power without ever accomplishing anything? How many of those did history record?s.

You are right if I were speaking of history in general and it was my mistake I did not clarify I meant the PA flight and Chinese who died at Tiananmen were heroes in our way of thinking. Besides the real decider of who is right or wrong is who wins. I guarantee history would say Hitler was right if he had won WWII. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.

[Voltage Spike]

I meant the PA flight and Chinese who died at Tiananmen were heroes in our way of thinking

As are countless others who are forgotten for equally brave acts. I guess my point was that deaths can be pointless, and discussion of the problem before doing something rash is sometimes wise.

I don't think we really disagree here. I just didn't think it was fair to use such clear-cut labels for people as heroes and cowards. Even among the "heroes", you are likely to find disagreement as to the best course of action.

Besides the real decider of who is right or wrong is who wins.

Sometimes so much so that it hurts...

One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.

As America's Army demonstrates so perfectly.

[astcell]

Skroo,

The camera does keep some crime from happening, just like padlocks keep some theft from happening. it will stop the opportunistic thief who sees something out in the open and cannot resist temptation. It will not stop anyone who wants to get the job done.

What i do not understand is why do WE understand this but the .gov does not?

[Thorn]

Skroo,

The camera does keep some crime from happening, just like padlocks keep some theft from happening. it will stop the opportunistic thief who sees something out in the open and cannot resist temptation. It will not stop anyone who wants to get the job done.

What i do not understand is why do WE understand this but the .gov does not?

What's really interesting is that studies in the UK have shown that cameras in public places do not prevent, or even diminish assaults and robberies. They happen too quick, and the bad guys know that they don't have the resolution to pick out faces most of the time. However, there is a slight statistical increase that shows locations with cameras get the victims to the hospital quicker.

[renderman]

What's really interesting is that studies in the UK have shown that cameras in public places do not prevent, or even diminish assaults and robberies. They happen too quick, and the bad guys know that they don't have the resolution to pick out faces most of the time. However, there is a slight statistical increase that shows locations with cameras get the victims to the hospital quicker.

Sounds like similar logic to students being forced to wear ID badges. In case of tragedy, it makes the bodies easier to sort out.

[allentrace]

What's really interesting is that studies in the UK have shown that cameras in public places do not prevent, or even diminish assaults and robberies. They happen too quick, and the bad guys know that they don't have the resolution to pick out faces most of the time. However, there is a slight statistical increase that shows locations with cameras get the victims to the hospital quicker.

People who rob banks know there are cameras yet they rob them anyway perhaps they hope they are going to get lucky and get away, takes a certain type of person for that desperate mentality.

[Thorn]

People who rob banks know there are cameras yet they rob them anyway perhaps they hope they are going to get lucky and get away, takes a certain type of person for that desperate mentality.

I know, I've help catch a few. The people I've dealt with who rob banks, aren't deperate, but rather stupid on a grand scale.

[astcell]

I know, I've help catch a few. The people I've dealt with who rob banks, aren't deperate, but rather stupid on a grand scale.

I went into law enforcement many moons ago because I wanted to catch the super genius criminals. They are for the most part only on TV. It was quite a let down.

[Thorn]

I went into law enforcement many moons ago because I wanted to catch the super genius criminals. They are for the most part only on TV. It was quite a let down.

<nods vigorously> The Riddler, The Joker, Dr. No, Auric Goldfinger and Ernst Stavro Blofeld are few and far between. Your average crook is a mouth breather.

[allentrace]

<nods vigorously> The Riddler, The Joker, Dr. No, Auric Goldfinger and Ernst Stavro Blofeld are few and far between. Your average crook is a mouth breather.

And it is all thanks to TV and movies that people develop misconceptions about certain jobs or things. I remember when Top Gun came out and and all of a sudden a huge number of recruits wanted to join the Navy only to find life was not Kelly McGillis and shooting Migs. Anyway I think most of them ended up in Nevada or Utah for duty so I guess the joke is on them in a way.