helping a crackers victim, ethicly right or wrong?

[Botkiller]

Hey all,

I've got this moral dilemma; A friend of mine has been fooled by someone that asked if he could use his computer because he didn't have one.

For the ease of reading this story I call the cracker person A or just A and the victim ( my friend ) person B or just B.

Now for the story :

Person A got to know person B during a meeting for a foundation that organize house party's. Person A asked B later after the meeting if I was B's friend. B said yes. Now person A came with the story that he knows me for a long time now and needed someone in his neighborhood to use a computer because he didn't have one. Person B said : Sure, no problem.
Only a while later he (B) noticed that person A was downloading all kinds of files and programs to his computer and that he often checked a special made account on Gmail. As person A told him it were logs from a keylogger he installed on all computers in an internetshop.

Now person A has also started to attack other computers from person B's computer. One of those computers is mine.

You could say person B is enslaved by person A because he pays his food and uses his computer in return.

Now is my question : Is it morally/ethicly right or wrong to use person A's programs against him and to stop him forever?

I have searched the forum for ethic guidelines and used google. On this forum only one thread came up that came a bit near what I need to know.

http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=3736

On google are lots of papers about ethics but nothing came really near to my situation (or I missed a part).

I would like to know what you all think what I should or shouldn't do.

Thanks in advance for your time and oppinions.

[enigma]

0_o....just physically threaten him...that seems to work better...the MOST ethical thing to do I suppose is contact the proper authorities.

[Botkiller]

0_o....just physically threaten him...that seems to work better...the MOST ethical thing to do I suppose is contact the proper authorities.

Hmm well, the guy is quite big and strong so physically threatening him doesn't work here :P.

And if I go to the authorities they ask for proof. Now I know that his mail account is full of keylogger logs. If I get those it should be quite some proof already, but is it right or wrong, ethicly?

[Thorn]

Hmm well, the guy is quite big and strong so physically threatening him doesn't work here :P.

And if I go to the authorities they ask for proof. Now I know that his mail account is full of keylogger logs. If I get those it should be quite some proof already, but is it right or wrong, ethicly?

1. Please lay off the colors. That was too hard to read.

2. Yes, it is wrong to attack this guy, at least morally and legally.

3. If the proper authorities are informed. they will know how to get proof on their own, and how to do it legally. They certainly won't need help from some amateur slueth. For you to even attempt to get any "proof" would probably taint the evidence so badly as to make sure that nothing could ever be done in a criminal law context.

Do the right thing. Contact the authorites.

[AlxRogan]

You are taking a large risk trying to "counter-crack" someone that is attacking you, I would not recommend doing this. I would go to your friend and tell him that he is becoming legally liable for actions coming from his computer, from his Internet account, on account of food or whatever else is being exchanged. It may be a crappy situation for your friend, but confronting him and having him confront the cracker is probably the best way to end the situation.

If that is not an option, and you feel that your friend may not be treated too harshly, then I would gather all the evidence and logs, from your own systems, you can, then present them to the appropriate authorities. Just as an aside, make sure all your logs work together from a common time stamp/source. I have seen investigations go awry due to poor time keeping on the logs when trying to correlate.

Good luck.

[Botkiller]

1. Please lay off the colors. That was too hard to read.

2. Yes, it is wrong to attack this guy, at least morally and legally.

3. If the proper authorities are informed. they will know how to get proof on their own, and how to do it legally. They certainly won't need help from some amateur slueth. For you to even attempt to get any "proof" would probably taint the evidence so badly as to make sure that nothing could ever be done in a criminal law context.

Do the right thing. Contact the authorites.

Ok, I'll contact the authorities. Thanks for the help guys, I knew I should go to the authorities, but using his tools against him sounded quite helpfull too (and fun :P). Anyway I'll contact the authorities.

And take my firewall & router logs (as I read the reply of AlxRogan after my reply :P)

[AlxRogan]

Good choice, just make sure that when you do take copies of your logs, that you don't alter your system in such a way to invalidate any possible future evidentiary copies.

[Thorn]

AlxRogan brings up an excellant point, and which makes me want to clarify my post. Providing your logs from your computer is perfectly acceptable to bring to the authorities. This may give them some idea as to what is going on, and provide incentive for them to proceed other that just your word.

What you don't want to do is to get anything from the other computer. That would be crossing the line and cause problems with potentially tainting the evidence. In fact, depend on what you might do and the particular laws there, it could possibly put you in a bad legal position.

[Botkiller]

Thanks for the good advice, I'll follow it.

[kallahar]

I disagree, involving the authorities may bring more heat than you want. What if the police go after you or your other friends as well? Personally, I'd protect myself and make sure to not associate with him, so that when he does get busted you aren't implicated. A good firewall and keeping your OS patched go a looong way to preventing attacks...

[enigma]

I can see your point, this is kind of like going to the police because someone stole your cocaine...

[Botkiller]

True, true, but what about my friend? He is involved without even knowing at the beginning. He can't stop it now because he depends on that guy. Should I go to counter-crack than or leave my best friend in his problems? I owe him the help he needs :S

See the moral dilemma? :P

[Floydr47]

If person A is using your friends (Person B's) computer for illegal activitiies then your friend is already screwed. In a recent case the RIAA sued because a woman's room mate was using her telephone jack (without her knowledge that a criminal offense was being committed) in order to download copyright protected .mp3's. The woman in question didn't even own a computer but her name was on the telephone bill so she was held liable for providing the access to the internet used by her room mate (the owner of the laptop that was used to d/l files). Your friend is already in a legal "grey" area. Think carefully before contacting the authorities...it may be wise to first inform your friend to seek legal advice before proceeding.

[Siviak]

uuummm.... what are these "morals" that you keep talking about?

[AlxRogan]

True, true, but what about my friend? He is involved without even knowing at the beginning. He can't stop it now because he depends on that guy. Should I go to counter-crack than or leave my best friend in his problems? I owe him the help he needs :S
See the moral dilemma? :P

Ok...does your friend know that this person is using his computer to commit illegal acts? The more this goes on, the more it seems like you need to tell him exactly what's going on, and let him know the seriousness of the activity. If this guy is paying him so he can eat, what was your friend doing for food beforehand?

I also agree with Kallahar and others, when saying that if you do go to the authorities, you may find your activities under question, so keep that in mind.

Either way, breaking into this guy's gmail account to get keylogger information is not the right way to get stuff done.