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**Beginner** · January 13, 2006, 18:48

Cool, water in the tank, cant get much cheaper than that. Especially if you can distill your own. And 110hp isnt bad for water. :)

**klepto** · January 13, 2006, 22:04

Watch the politicians jack up the price of water soon

**skroo** · January 15, 2006, 03:01

Incidentally, lest anyone thinks that this somehow contradicts my previous statements regarding hybrids and diesels: it doesn't. I am completely in favour of clean, sustainable engine technologies and could care less what they ultimately are, but they have to work in both the real world and long term. This one appears to fall into both of those categories, and seems workable.

I still want my Mr. Fusion, though, dammit.

**KeLviN** · January 19, 2006, 22:38

remind me again how much energy it takes to produce hydrogen? and was it 95% or 98% of all us power that comes from coal/oil?

**TheCotMan** · January 20, 2006, 06:26

Originally posted by KeLviN

remind me again how much energy it takes to produce hydrogen?

Though it can be expensive (energy-wise) to split water to O₂ and H₂, new techniques will be found to make the process more efficient. ~~Ionization of water~~ (mistake should have written) Adding certain water soluble cations/anions to pure water (for example) is one that can help and others may be discovered. Of course, the minimum cost will always be a bit more than what is produced when Oxygen and Hydrogen are recombined with a spark.

and was it 95% or 98% of all us power that comes from coal/oil?

An Image of US consumption as linked from a This story from the post-gazette.com site shows 85% US consumption from Coal, Oil or Natural as, while. only 8% from nuclear and 6% from alternative sources. Where is the missing 1%? Maybe "meat" engines. ;-)

Going back to the other discussions (1 and 2) people may choose to add solar cells to their own houses for hydrogen production-- not necessarily the most efficient, and hydrogen production in households may be a zone-issue for cities (or safety issue if energy industry wishes to push for less competition) , but hydrogen *can* be transported like we transport propane, or other fuels.

More on 2003 us/world energy from the DOE:

DOE page on world-wide consumption:
2003:
25% of the world's petroleum consumed by the US: 20033504/80098823.1780822 (barrels)
23% of the world's natural gas consumed by the US: 22375/95504.1072493171(billion ft³)
22% of the worl's coal consumed by the US: 1094.126344/5439.3265446868 (million short tons)

Report then only offers production of power, not both production/consumption for the following. Since neighbors can share electrical power across grids and I know the US import electricity from Canada, US neighbors are included:

Nuclear:
US: 30% of world production: 763.732695/2523.110695 (Billion kW hours)
Canada: 3% of world production: 70.785/2523.110695 (Billion kW hours)
Mexico: ~0.0% of world production: 9.975/2523.110695 (Billion kW hours)

Hydroelectric:
US: 10% of world production: 275.806323/2654.36935122058 (Billion kW hours)
Canada: 12.5% of world production: 332.4618/2654.36935122058 (Billion kW hours)
Mexico: 0.7% of world production: 19.6713/2654.36935122058 (Billion kW hours)

Geothermal, Solar, Wind, and Wood and Waste Electric Power:
US: 30% of world production: 93.531295/310.101045 (Billion kW hours)
Canada: 3% of world production: 8.536/310.101045 (Billion kW hours)
Mexico: 2% of world production: 6.223/310.101045 (Billion kW hours)

**eris** · January 27, 2006, 09:21

Hydrogen on O.C.'s horizon
Santa Ana opens its first hydrogen refueling station Thursday, becoming one of five sites in Southern California that will service fleets of city vehicles

By PAT BRENNAN
The Orange County Register

FUTURISTIC FUEL: Santa Ana Mayor Miguel Pulido speaks Thursdayin Santa Ana as officials unveil a hydrogen fueling station fora fleet of hydrogen-powered Toyota Prius cars. Pulido latertook a test drive.

MARK RIGHTMIRE, THE ORANGE COUNTY REGISTER
MORE PHOTOS

Background

Santa Ana is one of five Southern California cities participating in a five-year, $7 million project sponsored by the South Coast Air Quality Management District. All are setting up refueling stations for a total of 30 Toyota Priuses with engines modified to burn compressed hydrogen gas. Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies Worldwide Inc. of Irvine converts, tests and maintains the cars, while Air Products and Chemicals Inc. of Allentown, Pa., is installing the fueling stations.

Graphic
Click here to see a map of the cities taking part in a demonstration project meant to encourage the development of a hydrogen-powered economy.

SANTA ANA - First a technician attached a cable to the hydrogen car's tailpipe to prevent sparks. Then he snapped a thin, pressurized hose into place where the gasoline-pump nozzle would normally go.

A switch was flicked, cameras clicked, and Santa Ana became the latest way station on California's "hydrogen highway."

The city opened its first hydrogen refueling station Thursday, one of five in Southern California that will service fleets of city vehicles that run on compressed hydrogen gas.

The cars emit almost no pollution – only a tiny amount of nitrogen oxides – and the five-city program, sponsored by the South Coast Air Quality Management District, is meant to encourage the development of a hydrogen-powered economy.

"Hydrogen is now a real possibility," said David Freeman, president of the Port of Los Angeles.

But despite the gradual spread of hydrogen refueling stations around California - this is the state's 18th, and the second in Orange County - experts say we have a long way to go before hydrogen pushes gasoline aside.

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger has popularized the notion of a "hydrogen highway" stretching across the state, a broad network of refueling stations. And there are now clusters of such stations in Northern and Southern California.

The problem is getting cars on the road that could make use of them.

Santa Ana's fleet of five new Toyota Priuses relies on the same internal-combustion engines found in conventional cars, only with hydrogen in the tank instead of gasoline.

Such cars could sharply reduce air pollution, assuming pollution is controlled during the fuel-production process as well. Right now, hydrogen fuel is created typically with natural gas or electricity, although demonstration solar-powered or wind-powered systems have been developed.

Carmakers also have created prototypes of hydrogen fuel-cell cars. Instead of using internal-combustion engines, these run on electricity generated when hydrogen is mixed with oxygen, producing an electrochemical reaction.

They produce no pollution at all.

But neither type of hydrogen car is available yet to consumers. Carmakers have so far shown little interest in mass-producing internal-combustion hydrogen cars, and their fuel-cell versions would be far too expensive to place on the market.

None of that muted the enthusiasm of the public officials, regulators and technology company representatives who came to watch Santa Ana's hydrogen fleet gas up Thursday.

Mayor Miguel Pulido took reporters on a spin around the block in one of the cars. He said he would let officials in other cities drive Santa Ana's cars for days or weeks at a time to get a feel for what he hopes will be the hydrogen future.

"You've got to start somewhere," he said. "This is a good place to start."

THIS IS A MUST BE REGISTERED TO READ SITE, THUS THE TEXTUAL REPOST

**Baudtrap** · February 4, 2006, 08:37

But basically the hrdrogen powered cars still pollute the enviroment don't they? So what difference does it make from the diesel powered cars? Its expensive therefore not affordable to many of the middle and low income class earners. Its a good idea but in MY opinion its not that great. The city in Europe that has cars and buses powered with biological products that doesn't reallise that much waste is a better a idea according to me. But an advantage on the side of the hydrogen powered cars is that they could make us independent of 'those countries ' that have oil and threaten us from time to time.

**skroo** · February 4, 2006, 09:46

Originally posted by Baudtrap

But basically the hrdrogen powered cars still pollute the enviroment don't they?

Not unless you count water vapour as an emissions byproduct to be pollution.

So what difference does it make from the diesel powered cars?

Even lower emissions, oil not required for propulsion.

Its expensive therefore not affordable to many of the middle and low income class earners.

Go back and re-read the article. This is a first-generation pre-production product. It won't hit the market for another four to five years, at which point it whould be cheaper and more efficient.

The city in Europe that has cars and buses powered with biological products that doesn't reallise that much waste is a better a idea according to me.

What are you talking about? Specifics, please.

But an advantage on the side of the hydrogen powered cars is that they could make us independent of 'those countries ' that have oil and threaten us from time to time.

Okay, folks, say it with me: THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOTAL INDEPENDENCE FROM OIL, at least not with today's material technologies. If we could have an engine that was completely self-lubricating, self-cooling, and didn't require oil to do so, we'd've solved several mysteries of physics. However, passenger cars aren't even half of the issue. Aviation still needs fossil fuel, ditto the military. and neither one is likely to change soon. We use oil in production of everything from textiles to foodstuffs to housing materials; what's going to replace it in them?

**Deviant Ollam** · February 4, 2006, 11:59

Originally posted by Baudtrap

But an advantage on the side of the hydrogen powered cars is that they could make us independent of 'those countries ' that have oil and threaten us from time to time.

it is interesting to note (since most people do not know this) that less than half of US oil imports come from OPEC nations. less than 25% of our oil comes from the persian gulf region. we get as much oil from canada as we do from the saudis. if we were to reduce or eliminate oil as a source of civilian automotive fuel it would be possible, i would think, to supply our other oil needs from our own hemisphere. (in addition to canada, the US also gets a huge percentage of our oil from mexico and venezuela.)

i would also be remiss in this post if i didn't point out that "those countries" (i assume you were referring to middle eastern nations) have never posed a threat to the united states. (at least not a military one. they have caused economic pinches in the past, of course.)

**big chopper** · February 4, 2006, 12:25

Originally posted by Deviant Ollam

it is interesting to note (since most people do not know this) that less than half of US oil imports come from OPEC nations. <snip>(in addition to canada, the US also gets a huge percentage of our oil from mexico and venezuela.)

Venezuela is a founding member of OPEC.
--BC,

**Deviant Ollam** · February 4, 2006, 14:12

Originally posted by big chopper

Venezuela is a founding member of OPEC.

yes, i am aware of that. (all the figures in the above post hold, however, even with venezuela being a member)

**converge** · February 4, 2006, 14:25

one more reason to invade canada

**astcell** · February 4, 2006, 16:09

Originally posted by converge

one more reason to invade canada

We need to invade Alaska.

**Deviant Ollam** · February 5, 2006, 13:10

Originally posted by astcell

We need to invade Alaska.

i've considered getting a plot of land in someplace like alaska to have my own little enclave where it is difficult to invade privacy and serenity. hmm... anyone know much about property way up there, like in alaska or the yukon territory? i imagine that there are some regions which are so desparate for development and population that you could obtain acerage and put up a home almost for free as long as you maintain it and visit it occasionally.

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Peugeot unveils hydrogen fuel cell

Peugeot unveils hydrogen fuel cell

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