Announcement

**Thorn** · January 13, 2006, 21:48

Yeah, it's possible. Commonly refered to as a WISP.

1. Usual distribution: 100 users/T1. It varies of course, depending on traffic.

2. See #1.

3. Like anything else, that will depend on a lot of different factors.

4. By hiring someone who knows a bunch about wireless.

There are some WISP mailing lists out there, and a lot of these questions come up repeatedly.

**SlackJaw** · January 13, 2006, 22:37

Originally posted by Thorn

Yeah, it's possible. Commonly refered to as a WISP.

1. Usual distribution: 100 users/T1. It varies of course, depending on traffic.

2. See #1.

3. Like anything else, that will depend on a lot of different factors.

4. By hiring someone who knows a bunch about wireless.

There are some WISP mailing lists out there, and a lot of these questions come up repeatedly.

I'm familiar with WISP or at least the concept, but will it work in the woods? Hills and dales and all that shit...? Some subscribers will be miles away. I thought WISP only operated in densely populated cities.

They have the local nix madman on the payroll but I don't know how skillful he will be in setting this up. Hell, I'd LOVE a piece of this action...a learning experience plus a little jingle in my pocket...but I'd come off like a monkey fucking a football.

So you're saying with 2 t1's they could potentially max out at 200 users? Plus the BW used to host? Seems to me, the least they could get by with is a t3 but could use a straight pipe but the cost would kill em. And I'm sure they will still have their dial up customers.... Sounds like a long shot to me.

Thanks Thorn,

Tommy

**SlackJaw** · January 13, 2006, 22:53

Originally posted by Thorn

Yeah, it's possible. Commonly refered to as a WISP.

1. Usual distribution: 100 users/T1. It varies of course, depending on traffic.

2. See #1.

3. Like anything else, that will depend on a lot of different factors.

4. By hiring someone who knows a bunch about wireless.

There are some WISP mailing lists out there, and a lot of these questions come up repeatedly.

I cannot believe I'm in somewhat of a dialog with you....know the saying "that guy wrote the book....."? Damn..you DID write the book! you're Frank! I was doing some googling about this, mainly to mask some dumbassedness, and your name hits me from all sides.

Man, I really do appreciate you taking time to respond this is just too killer....I had no idea who you were. I think I'll get the book now that we're pals.

Seriously man is was cool of you to "step down" to this thread....

Take Care,

T

**TheCotMan** · January 14, 2006, 01:07

It is good to be excited about the forums, but please use the "edit" button when available to add more comments to a reply instead of replying twice.

This is covered here. In the rules:

Originally posted by rules

5. Spamming, Power posting, and Advertising:
...
To fix your post, edit it ... you may edit your post for up to 24 hours after it is created.

There are exceptions where this is allowed, but these are not covered here.

Comments on thread:

Originally posted by SlackJaw

Well Cot never said I couldn't start this thread so I want to get a little dialogue going.

It does not really work that way. Mostly, there are rules for content, and things which do not violate those rule are more likely to remain than things that do violate the rules.

Also, I am not the only moderator here. I think there are presently from 15 to 18 users here [though these numbers change] who have the power the ban users, or relocate threads/posts. This makes it little more difficult for new users to figure out who the moderators are, but sometimes that is a good thing.

In most cases, each moderator acts independently of the other moderators on issues of banning and post relocation to /dev/null.

Look at my join date, and you can see that I am still somewhat "new" to the forums when compared to others.

Originally posted by SlackJaw

I'm familiar with WISP...

I've seen ISP advertise it as "WDSL" for "Wireless DSL" (More keywords when searching.)

Like Thorn suggested, this is one of those things where you are probably better off targetting a mailing list that is specific to Wirless ISPs as the percent of people with the ISP-side of supporting users.

Originally posted by SlackJaw

2. The ISP has two T1's but they also host about 15 - 20 sites.

This does not mean much. For example, if the 15-20 sites are all rabid porn service or spammers, then "not enough" seems likely, but if the 15-20 sites are local shops where "ma and pa" are selling trinkets and do-dads...

"128kbps upstream" is ambiguous. Upstream to where? Just the associated AccessPoint/Wireless point? The ISP's Server/ISP-side router? the ISP's nexthop to their upstram provider? Details often considered by people running ISP, and really great for ISP lists.

Thousands of simultaneous users? heh. Again, a piece of specific information that would be considered on a specialized mailing list.

**converge** · January 14, 2006, 10:35

yeah, you guys are gonna run into some issues.

Your first problem will be getting the wireless connectivity to work reliably for your customer base. If the area is as smalltown as you say, this generally leaves customers further spread out and generally involves other obstacles like trees, hills, etc. People paying for broadband wireless do not understand the technology and will be expecting the same level of service as any other wired broadband, in spite of countless factors that can degrade or kill wireless signal. most of the startups that don't know what they're doing buy a T1 or two off the local CLEC or ILEC and think they can be an ISP. Now, if you're simply hosting a website or email that is one thing... connectivity opens up a whole other realm of responsibility and headaches, just like offering phone service is different from selling long distance phone cards... A lot of folks will have their customers call in to the CLEC/ILEC directly that is providing the T1, forcing the assumed responsibility on them. I don't recommend doing this; you will sorely piss off your provider and the people that work there. 95% of the time it is going to be your equipment or configuration, or your customers... not the real ISPs.

So you've mastered the connectivty challenge and are ready to proceed. The second hurdle you will face is bandwidth usage policy. The 100/T1 Thorn is referring to is called oversubscribing.. the way that ISPs and Telecoms in general can actually make money by providing service. Some of the more reliable ISPs oversubscribe to the tune of 6-10/1. Many of the more aggressive companies will oversubscribe 50-100/1. The general idea is that most customers will simply be browsing the Internet using very little of their bandwidth.. every once in a while customer will download files, etc.. but it is probably unlikely that all the customers will try to fill their 128K bandwidth at the same time. ... or is it?

Your next steps will be considering who you sell the service to and what their browsing habits are. 1 P2P user will keep their bandwidth filled 24/7. ... so do the math.. you're shooting with two T1s .. thats 24x2 channels, with each channel handling 64kbps of data. You are aiming for a thousand customers (as Thorn mentioned, a little unlikely off of only two T1s by any workable oversubscribtion expectation), but lets say it works... 12 customers filling their bandwith of 128K (assuming connectivity is properly QoSd at the router) will tax the entire bandwidth of a single T1. That means in terms of P2P users, 24 users filling their allotted bandwidth will take down service entirely for the other 976 users. Have you ever worked in a support at either a managerial or even phonechucker level? Most of your customers would leave in a heartbeat even if you are sorely undercutting their price of broadband in comparison to the big players.

So lets chop it down a little more... what if you only have 200 users as a max? 24 users at 128kbps is approximately 12% of of your customer base. Now lets re-examine usage. We know P2P is your enemy.. but what about other high-bandwidth usages? bwah bwah what? What about users that stream audio or video? VPN connectivity? These use large chunks of bandwidth of extended periods of time, unlike FTP transfers, large emails, downloads, or whatnot.. what is the likelyhood that 12% of your customers will be interested in using these high-bandwidth uses? IMO, you're fighting a lost battle if you step out and look at the current state of broadband and its common uses. Now consider that by today's standards, broadband speeds generally provide a minimum of 256kbps... many of them increasing the minimum to 512 in recent years... you may be heading for headache or obsoletion at the very start of your business.

So this is it, right.. if I can overcome this then I'm done right? Nope. You now have other pertinant issues to deal with, like ... abuse! In the configuration of your customers connectivity, are you including the ability to track which customers are doing what with your bandwidth? Which MACs relate to which IPs? If you are giving paid customers annonymous access to your two T1s .. you could be in for a whole world of hurt. Your T1 bandwidth is constantly pumping out its max up/down bandwidth because you have 24 very happy high paying 128k using customers ... As soon as the CLEC/ILEC you have purchased the T1s from gets wind of this they will begin investigation of the traffic coming from that circuit for things like worms, etc. If you have anything like worm infected customers, open mail relays, or P2P users downloading illegal content, you have a serious problem. You now have the obligation of handling the abuse issue within a specified period of time. If you cannot get it under control, your ISP will ACL the circuit until you can. That means one person refusing to kill their bittorrent client from downloading the latest Xmen movie could mean 0 service for the remainder of your 100-500 customers off of that single circuit. .. insert mantra about support calls, lawsuit threats, and customer cancellations that this will create.

Then.. How are you going to control your wifi to make certain that only paying customers are using it? Will your QoS depend on authenticated user? How will sessions be terminated? If not QoSd by user, you could have someone with 2+ wifi cards in the household sucking down 128kbps per card instead of per paying customer. If their sessions do not terminated for that user account on the server, how many customers will try to log back in but not be able to get service until their previous session expires? How many support calls will this translate to for your business? Support calls == money == cost subtracted from the bottom line of what you can feasibly make by selling the service in the first place.

You may consider tapping down the door of a couple CLECs to learn more about ISPs before deciding to play one. If it were me looking to start up an ISP, I would take one of two approaches. 1) get a lot of backing with an amazing business plan and get startup funds to do it right. This implies hiring the right people to build your network based on a very solid concept and understand of ISPs and the various services you intend to provide. Option #2, stick to websites, email, domain hosting, domain reg.. etc. This is much more forgiving and something that can either be taken by storm or more easily grown into. It also allows for a much greater profit margin to cover your ass with financial mistakes you make for not knowing how to run a business.

.. anyone want to start an ISP with me? anyone? takers? going once? .. erm .. I'll bake cookies?

**SlackJaw** · January 14, 2006, 11:59

Thank for a fantastic post converge. You have said everything I've felt but didn't quite know how to say it.
You bring up a ton of challenges so now I really have a jump off point to do some drilling down and do more specific research, along the line of what Thorn and CotMan were saying...

At this point, should I try to offer any rebuttal or god forbid any extention to you well thought out post, I'd look foolish, but I wouldn't mind Thorn or some other kung fu master jumping on this...I'll kick back and enjoy.

Sincere Thanks converge. You're my current hero. Of course this is subject to change it someone happens to line me up with pussy/food/All expense paid trip to DC/or a cute puppy.

Side note to Cot.... "My Bad."

Side Note to Forum/DC Vets and and the real Geeks here.....I think some of you have lost touch with what it feels like for wannabes to just come on here and have you guys acknowledge our existance. The intelligent people with a passion - just like yours know how to google, and sift through the plethora of white papers, cracked ebooks/warez, and their text books, but it isn't a lazy nature that entices us to come here with what you percieve as elementary rehashed SOS. You are the so called leaders of the scene and represent what we aspire to be. I'm not talking about starry eyed adolescents disilusioned by hollywood, or scene whores, or fad faggots, but people with the same quest you have - we're all just at different levels.
You see, you give what static learning tools can't; an "in you face" dialogue that not only teaches, but inspires, feeding not only the brain but the soul. I am absolutely NOT saying you have any responsibility to fulfill this role but nonetheless its the position you've climbed too, and in my opinon, earned. Do with it what you wll.....

God I sound like a dildo... fuck it...I'm posting it anyway.

**Thorn** · January 14, 2006, 16:55

Originally posted by SlackJaw

I'm familiar with WISP or at least the concept, but will it work in the woods? Hills and dales and all that shit...? Some subscribers will be miles away. I thought WISP only operated in densely populated cities.

They have the local nix madman on the payroll but I don't know how skillful he will be in setting this up. Hell, I'd LOVE a piece of this action...a learning experience plus a little jingle in my pocket...but I'd come off like a monkey fucking a football.

So you're saying with 2 t1's they could potentially max out at 200 users? Plus the BW used to host? Seems to me, the least they could get by with is a t3 but could use a straight pipe but the cost would kill em. And I'm sure they will still have their dial up customers.... Sounds like a long shot to me.

Thanks Thorn,

Tommy

Converge covered the whole oversubscription issue very well, so I'm not even going to touch any of that again. Pertaining to the wireless service itself, there are some advantages and some disadvantages.

The first issue here is the signal propogation: i.e. Can the RF actually make it from the base unit to the subscriber's unit? A lot of signals will make it out over long distances, and through the woods. However, a lot don't. Some signals will blast though everything but solid rock. Others will (literally) die from one pine tree being in the signal's path. The signal's band will have to be determined by a lot of different factors. Some typical ones are: What is the terrain? What is the vegatation coverage? What are the distances involved? What speed/services are going to be offered to the subscribers?

Once the band has been determined, they issue of the equipment comes into play. Some equipment can be dirt cheap, some is so expensive it will give sticker-shock heart attacks.

Then, you have business decisions (and business models) that you have to figure out based on all of that. Do you charge for installs, or is that free? Are you eating the cost of the subscriber unit, or charging the consumer for it? What is the competition (if any) doing? What is it going to cost you to run backhauls (wired or fiber or wireless) to your tower(s)? Will the business plan be killed because of some other factors? For example, the Public Service Board in my state has mandated that cable TV companies expand into certain townships. It could be business suicide to start a WISP in some of those areas because cable will most likely be cheaper and faster, and the cable companies are usually much larger than the WISP, have deep financial pockets and are able to undercut the little guy.

All of this stuff is so complex that a number of people who consult in this stuff get $3k-$5k per day, and will only work for several weeks minimum. (My prices aren't quite that high.

)

Establishing a WISP, and be a nice little business though, if all of the factors are a accounted for and there is customer base. I know of a number of different places where they are doing very well. I also know of some others where the owners have lost their shirts.

Originally posted by SlackJaw

I cannot believe I'm in somewhat of a dialog with you....know the saying "that guy wrote the book....."? Damn..you DID write the book! you're Frank! I was doing some googling about this, mainly to mask some dumbassedness, and your name hits me from all sides.

Man, I really do appreciate you taking time to respond this is just too killer....I had no idea who you were. I think I'll get the book now that we're pals.

Seriously man is was cool of you to "step down" to this thread....

Take Care,

T

So did you miss the link in my signature?

Yeah, that's me. It's Chris' book, though. He was just kind enough to invite me along for the ride, and I ended up writing some chapters.

**SlackJaw** · January 14, 2006, 21:58

This is fantastic.. Now I have definite topics I can narrow my research down with. This is an already established (dial up) ISP and host but they're fading fast and looking for options but the one option they called me for is this...and i'm lost. But now, I'll take your specific concerns, research some and maybe have an intelligent conversation with the owner. Based on what Thorn, Converge, and Cot said...I don't think this will fly. Too cost prohibitive and too long of distances over rolling hills and forest.

Thanks guys...you're the best.

Oh and next topic...this lam3r has a game server I want to hack........

Tommy

Announcement

Wireless ISP

Wireless ISP

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment