Free Gas!

[TheCotMan]

This is how our (British) 24hour pumps work. Surely america must have 24 hour systems similar? Put card in and type in pin, then take as much petrol as you like. Or are all your petrol stations manned 24hours a day?

The laws differ from state to state, and kinds of systems can differ from station to station within any state. Most states seem to allow self-service pumps, and have scheduled hours of operation for full-service pumps (when available.)

States like Oregon have had laws to disallow citizens from pumping their own gas.

Some gas stations don't even require a PIN-- just a card, while other stations "require" a ZIP code, or may use a simple POS system that accepts normal ATM transactions with a PIN, and/or credit cards with or without PINs. In rural-spaces, there are "truck-stop" like refueling places for tractors that accept just a keyed code (digits) to bill an account.

[Beacon 11]

Re:

You must not be in California; this is either our second or third time breaking the $3/gallon limit (currently around $3.45 at most places these days). What pisses me off is that it was down to $2.15 over Christmas, so the price has increased 62% in five months

Ugh.... man I feel sorry for Californians. I used to tell everyone "Be happy! Gas gas decreased in price because of inflation! We're paying less than we were in the 70s!" Great... that projection was for $3.08 (calculations done in 2005). Hey... I guess we can be happy that we in the US aren't paying as much as the UK! Also, the fact that the price went down during Christmas makes sense- not very many people take their summer vacations during winter! Gas prices soar when everyone uses it.
There is one thing though. When you think about it, gas really is quite inexpensive for a refined commodity. I mean heck, let's look at the prices for OTHER commodities. (these prices are current over HERE at least...) We have Gatorade at $1.59 / 20 oz. Woo, that comes out to $10.17 a gallon. Wait, let's look at Pepto Bismol for $3.85 / 4 oz- $123.20 per gallon. Or Vick Nyquil at $8.35 / 6 oz- $178.13 every gallon. Or even this... Evian Water at $1.49 / 9 oz. Guys, that comes out to $21.19 per gallon- gas is cheaper than bottled water!
I'm not saying we should be happy about high gas prices, but it isn't as bad as it could be- and drink tap water!!

[skroo]

you get it so cheap...UK its about US$7 per gallon...(according to google exchanges)

Yeah, but remember that you have substantially more tax levied on your fuel than we do. A straight comparison of prices isn't viable for exactly this reason; less the taxes, you'd be paying about what we are. After all, a barrel of crude oil costs the same the world over unless you happen to live in an OPEC nation.

This is how our (British) 24hour pumps work. Surely america must have 24 hour systems similar? Put card in and type in pin, then take as much petrol as you like. Or are all your petrol stations manned 24hours a day?

Yeah, I was trying to understand this one as well, particularly since this is exactly what I did a couple of days ago when I filled my tank.

[GBHis]

Note to GBHis: my apologies; I fucked up and edited your post rather than replying to it. I could probably give a pile of excuses as to why this happened, but it comes down to me being distracted and not paying attention to what I was doing. Sorry.

Crazy Americans-.. Your prices are (when @ peek) 1/2 of the european...

[skroo]

Crazy Americans-.. Your prices are (when @ peek) 1/2 of the european...

Easy fix for that: stop penalising motorists by taxing the hell out of them at the pumps.

Also, remember that fuel costs more in the UK due to the higher value of sterling vs. the dollar and euro. My parents pay around E1.02/litre for fuel vs. approximately STG0.97/litre (going with the average prices for unleaded at www.petrolprices.com). At today's rates courtesy of xe.com, that litre of fuel works out at E1.42, or roughly 40% more than they're paying.

Since fuel is still sold here in gallons, we divide the cost of fuel here by 3.8 (an SAE gallon is 3.8 litres vice 4.2 litres per Imperial gallon) to get the per-litre price: at $3.45/gallon, this works out at approximately US$0.91/litre. Converting that to euro, we get E0.71/litre, or an approximately 31% difference over the price in euro.

Working this out for sterling: one US gallon would cost STG3.72. After currency conversion, that's US$6.94, or approximately 201% more than today's pump price in Los Angeles.

So yes, fuel is still cheaper here, but not by as much as most people tend to think if you don't realise that the UK and remainder of the EU nations use entirely different monetary systems with considerably different exchange rates compared to the dollar - or take into account the differences in capacities of US and Imperial gallons.

[Second]

There is one thing though. When you think about it, gas really is quite inexpensive for a refined commodity. I mean heck, let's look at the prices for OTHER commodities. (these prices are current over HERE at least...) We have Gatorade at $1.59 / 20 oz. Woo, that comes out to $10.17 a gallon. Wait, let's look at Pepto Bismol for $3.85 / 4 oz- $123.20 per gallon. Or Vick Nyquil at $8.35 / 6 oz- $178.13 every gallon. Or even this... Evian Water at $1.49 / 9 oz. Guys, that comes out to $21.19 per gallon- gas is cheaper than bottled water!
I'm not saying we should be happy about high gas prices, but it isn't as bad as it could be- and drink tap water!!

I don't think this is a fair comparison. Users of these products get plenty more result out of, say, a gallon of pepto bismol than a gallon of gas. Not to mention drinking a gallon of Pepto Bismol, drinking a gallon of Gatorade, and drinking a gallon of Vick's Nyquil are all detramental to your health, whereas using a gallon+ of gas is necessary in most everyday commutes. Also, I believe your selection of Evian as your water choice has a problem as well. Evian is a high-end brand selling the exact same stuff as the Albertson's containers of water. It's kind of like comparing Sex Panther (joke) with something a lot cheaper like Axe when you still get the same desired result. (good smell) The product prices are higher because they are meant to last longer than a gallon of gas.

[Deviant Ollam]

gas is cheaper than bottled water

interesting side note... in regions where ethanol is at the fuel pumps (or sold as any sort of fuel at all) the reason that the law states it has to be "denatured" (read: contaminated and non-drinkable) is because it works out to be a mere fraction of the cost of boozahol and the government doesn't want people to have a cheap, easy way to get lit up... particularly when such a method doesn't involve giving the government their cut of the gravy.

[Virosa]

interesting side note... in regions where ethanol is at the fuel pumps (or sold as any sort of fuel at all) the reason that the law states it has to be "denatured" (read: contaminated and non-drinkable)

According to the ever-reliable wikipedia, fuel ethanol is usually produced by some pretty harsh methods - not from traditional fermentation. "Petroleum Feedstock"? Sounds like you're better off not drinking it, even if they didn't actively add contaminants to it.

Back in the 90's I recall Don Lancaster talking about how traditional ethanol-through-fermentation wouldn't work due to the sheer amount of farmland required to supply a nation with enough raw material. So I guess
no government-subsidized buzzes are in any of our futures.

Boooo.

[xwred1]

Working this out for sterling: one US gallon would cost STG3.72. After currency conversion, that's US$6.94, or approximately 201% more than today's pump price in Los Angeles.

Do I suck at math? You just worked out 201% more expensive in UK, and he plucked out the figure "1/2"... so doesn't your math agree with his off-the-cuff estimate?

[Virosa]

Do I suck at math? You just worked out 201% more expensive in UK, and he plucked out the figure "1/2"... so doesn't your math agree with his off-the-cuff estimate?

I think he means "101% more expensive" or "201% the price", but either way, it works out to be 1/2.

[skroo]

Do I suck at math? You just worked out 201% more expensive in UK, and he plucked out the figure "1/2"... so doesn't your math agree with his off-the-cuff estimate?

Actually, it shouldn't - or at least not as closely. More:

(an SAE gallon is 3.8 litres vice 4.2 litres per Imperial gallon)

For some reason, I stated that an Imperial gallon is 4.2 litres; that should've read 4.5 litres. Not off by a lot, but enough that the percentage estimate should be closer to 220%.

Either way, it doesn't change the fact that using the UK for a comparison to US prices is pointless if you're trying to do a Europe-wide estimate since the UK isn't on the Euro. Sterling still has a much higher exchange rate against the dollar - US$1.86:STG1.00 vs. US$1.28:EUR1.00 at today's rates.

What I'd like to know is why the gallon of fuel in Los Angeles that cost $2.25 in December of 2004 is now $3.45 (an increase of 67%) when my parents in Ireland were paying EUR0.98/litre at the same time vs. EUR1.15/litre today (a 17% increase). The oil costs the same, transport and refining costs are about the same, and distribution costs are about the same.

We're getting gouged, and make no mistake about it. If we weren't, the price increases would've been about parallel worldwide.

[mfreeck]

What are you going to do? Stop using your car? I doubt that very much...It will just get to the point where only the more well off can afford to drive everywhere and less well off people might have to *shock horror* walk sometimes! ;) Anyway you have a long way to go before it gets to that point.

As Big Chopper mentioned, most US cities require a car to get from point A to point B. Even something as basic as the grocery store may not be accessible by walking or bus.

The city I live in (Portland, OR) has a great transportation system, and sometimes a car is still required. Also, with the rising cost of gas, many businesses have had to cut back. My school which has offered free shuttle buses between campuses has begun to use smaller buses (causing people to stand in the aisle) and our public transit system has hiked rates higher than normal twice a year, rather than once. I also suspect that on certain routes they have cut back by simply not sending a bus at the appointed time and not notified the public... there have been too many occurances of a bus not showing up at all to be coincidental.

Erm, but back to the point. I don't drive and there are only a few cities in the US I can live in because of this. Currently, neither I or converge own a car, but we had to have one for awhile because converge worked odd hours when public transit doesn't run. Now we may be facing acquiring a car again because his workplace may be migrating. Not far at all, but far enough to be out of reliable transit's reach. Sure, we could move to be closer to the new facility, but since this suburb has such poor transit, that would leave me with a 2-3 hour commute to school each way, assuming we lived on a bus route in the first place. Forget once a week night school (because you'll never make it back at 10pm at night), so now we're talking several classes twice a week. Some homework can be done on the bus, but it's a pretty distracting environment.

This is why folks are so up in arms over gas prices in the US. There simply is not an alternate to using gas. Even if you live in one of the cities with good public transit, you may still be required to own a car. You may choose to get a car with good gas mileage or risk running around on a two wheeled vehicle (but is it cheaper when someone doesn't see you and you get sent to the hospital?), but that's only choosing LESS gas. For that matter, taking the bus or using flexcar is still using gas.

Also, I should mention bicycles as transportation... they are viable in this city to a point, but probably I'm not going to be able to carry large objects on one, or especially commute to the suburbs with one.

What annoys me is our city had a system with streetcars, but at some point they were ripped out in favour of gas powered vehicles.

[xwred1]

Yes, I noticed that too. It seems like the rate of price increase has accelerated.

It can't have been going up 67% say for the last 5 years, or else 5 years ago gas would have been <$1/gal.

I wonder how much of the gas increase might be considered inflationary too. Considering how many things gasoline touches in the economy, you could argue that the price of gas going up would cause some inflation in the rest of the system. And then you measure the price increase of the gas against that inflated dollar?

I don't know, I'm not an economist. I'm still a little unclear on how we can run the country off piles of borrowed money. I can't run my personal life that way.

[robosycho]

Yes, I noticed that too. It seems like the rate of price increase has accelerated.

It can't have been going up 67% say for the last 5 years, or else 5 years ago gas would have been <$1/gal.

Again with the math, is gas going for $1.67 near you? And yes the rate has increased, it managed to go up 15% in my area in a week...

[Deviant Ollam]

There simply is not an alternate to using gas.

it's an accurate assessment of living in the united states to say that one needs access to a vehicle in most instances, and to change this phenomenon would be a massive undertaking that is simply not possible. however, using gasoline is not something that's set in stone and it would be far less difficult for that to change at the hands of government encouragement.

look at brazil... their service stations all have to carry three fuels by law. gas (i think they run sugar-distilled ethanol actually), diesel (or some biodiesel), and compressed natural gas. now, i'm not one who likes the idea of governments requiring businesses to offer certain products or services, but i would certainly support a system of massive tax breaks or other financial incentives to get gas stations who have pumps for diesel or biofuel, etc. i would own a vehicle that ran on this stuff if i could be secure in the knowledge that when i'm at 1/8 of a tank, a fill-up wouldn't involve driving far out of my way.

What annoys me is our city had a system with streetcars, but at some point they were ripped out in favour of gas powered vehicles.

do you know the history there? some time back (i think in the 20s, mostly) public transit systems were bought out in cities all over by private consortiums (mostly financed and controlled by General Motors and Firestone). Men like Alfred P. Sloan engineered these takeovers so that the private transit firm, once in power, could immediately switch the city to buses as opposed to rail cars. most of the time, they ripped out the tracks so that the cities could never go back. even if the tranist systems became publicly-operated at some point in the future (as many have) they would be forced to rely on GM for vehicle fleets and Firestone rubber at routine intervals. a really shitty, shady thing to do, in my opinion.