What is the ethical thing to do?

[psyco_path]

Last night in Persuasion we had to do an oral presentation on propaganda on the internet and how useful it is as a tool for propaganda. One of my fellow students did a presentation on “hackers”. First off let me state that I am not truly a hacker, I know my way around a workstation but I wouldn’t say that I have any true and wondrous skill.

So with that in mind here is what I learned about hackers.

- They know everything. They already know your drivers license number, and your mother’s name. Don’t try hiding anything from them, they know it all already.
- MIRC: This only LOOKS like an instant messaging thing. This is how hackers control computers. In fact the hacker friend that she interviewed said that he could “nuke” computers and that there was a toolbar that had different scripts on how to do anything from reboot your machine to blow the keyboard off of your desk.
- Defcon was this super elite group that in order to be a member of it you had to be on the FBI’s top watch list to be on it. Also the person who is highest on the watch list is the one who is in charge at Defcon. She mentioned that the FBI and CIA hire exclusively from the annual convention and that spotting the fed is the best way to “advance in the hacker ranks”
- Finally she demonstrated how we all could download a movie from a message board and that all hackers already have these movies and post them all the time for people to watch. I didn’t write the web address down, Sorry. I guess I’m not a hacker at heart.

Now. Here’s the participation part of this whole project.

Do I correct her beliefs about the hacker community?

My answer is no. I know what I believe to be bullshit. My skills are not as developed as some other individuals on this board who more closely identify with the label of hacker. So what would you do?

[renderman]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Ask for her published sources. That'll screw her up.

Sounds mostly like hearsay and bullshit. Ask for the credentials of the person she interviewed. A donkey calling himself a hacker doesn't make it true. It only makes him more of an ass.

Alternatively, ask if any of her 'sources' have actually been to Defcon. If not, how does she know all this?

No arguing needed, just shoot her down with tough questions and logic. I've done it before and it's alot of fun to watch them admit they pulled so much out of their ass that it's gotta hurt.

[IrishMASMS]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Do I correct her beliefs about the hacker community?

Yes. And your class instructor, informing them that the presentation was full of FUD.

[TheCotMan]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Does the scope of course project include being accurate, or just convincing?
If the teacher does not care about facts, like what you sometimes see in spin-campaigns, then the teacher may do nothing. However, the teacher may be concerned about your not being convinced.

Which is more important to you? Correcting the spoken information to ensure the disinformation is addressed, or the speaker's grade on that presentation?

Could the speaker be attempting some sort of social engineering, where they know the truth, but want to see if they can mislead "the masses" (your class) ?

What you choose to do will depend on what motivates you more.

If you choose to question her "facts" you can ask her:
Did you:
* review threads on the forums?
* join the forums and ask questions?
* check more than the the one source interviewed?
* interview the "leader"** of Defcon?
* know the name of the "leader"** of Defcon?

**- organizer, manager, director, party-planner, facilitator...

If the FBI/CIA hire exclusively from Defcon, why do their recruiters/HR people show up at university Job Fairs?

[bascule]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

I think if hackers are anything, it's astounded at how little regular people try to protect sensitive information. Kind of the same way a locksmith might be astounded at how many people have hollow front doors or 1/4" screws holding in their strike plates.

[renderman]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

I think if hackers are anything, it's astounded at how little regular people try to protect sensitive information. Kind of the same way a locksmith might be astounded at how many people have hollow front doors or 1/4" screws holding in their strike plates.

A little understanding goes a long way. The sheeple tend to be amazed at anyone or anything that is beyond their grasp. I think we all know that with a little training, the mystique can be removed very easily.

What concerns me is the ease of which some people accept crap like mentioned by the OP as 'fact' despite the absurdity and outright fantasy look and feel of it.

Edit: I'm not trying to spoon feed, I'm just writing this out to understand how basic this person is that they are amazed by the mundane:

- They know everything. They already know your drivers license number, and your mother’s name. Don’t try hiding anything from them, they know it all already.

So does the DMV, credit card companies, choicepoint, and a whole host of others. Does this mean that they are hackers too? Or is it simply that because they have it, we have it because we 0wn all those computers?

Hell, every week you hear about a laptop being stolen/lost/sold with private info. I'm more worried about who else has my info than any (media version of the term) hacker.

- MIRC: This only LOOKS like an instant messaging thing. This is how hackers control computers. In fact the hacker friend that she interviewed said that he could “nuke” computers and that there was a toolbar that had different scripts on how to do anything from reboot your machine to blow the keyboard off of your desk.

Some tongue in cheek I would assume. Who is impressed with Mirc? It's IRC. It predates IM and myspace by about a decade as the primary time wasting social interaction on the internet. And
I'd be impressed if any of those old scripts have worked since 1997. You also answered your own question; The person she interviewed was relying on scripts and point 'n click interfaces to do childish thing. I bet she'd shit herself if someone showed her metasploit.

- Defcon was this super elite group that in order to be a member of it you had to be on the FBI’s top watch list to be on it. Also the person who is highest on the watch list is the one who is in charge at Defcon. She mentioned that the FBI and CIA hire exclusively from the annual convention and that spotting the fed is the best way to “advance in the hacker ranks”

Umm, yeah, I never got my application. Must have been lost in the mail. Seriously, he/she who believes this kind of crap never does any sort of research. pics.defcon.org or defconpics.org and tell me if that looks like that a ripe hiring ground for the FBI or CIA.

And spotting the fed is the best way to get a free t-shirt. That's about it. Now, being an attendee spotted as a fed, now that's more fun.

- Finally she demonstrated how we all could download a movie from a message board and that all hackers already have these movies and post them all the time for people to watch. I didn’t write the web address down, Sorry. I guess I’m not a hacker at heart.

Umm, yeah, there's this thing called bittorrent. might want to use 'the google' to find out what it's about.

People have been trading media for decades. whether it was reel to reel tape, audio tape copies, VHS copies, burned CD's or download, it's not anything new.

This whole thing smells wierd. I think this persons only reference was the MTV "True Life" bit on hackers from 1999'ish that showed pretty much all the stuff you pointed out.

I call bullshit on the whole thing


Edit: A little google-fu turned up this review that spells out alot of the details and sounds very familiar

http://www.2600.com/news/view/article/350

[Nikita]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Main Entry: eth·i·cal
Pronunciation: 'e-thi-k&l
Variant(s): also eth·ic /-thik/
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English etik, from Latin ethicus, from Greek Ethikos, from Ethos character -- more at SIB
1 : of or relating to ethics <ethical theories>
2 : involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval <ethical judgments>
3 : conforming to accepted standards of conduct <ethical behavior>
4 of a drug : restricted to sale only on a doctor's prescription
synonym see MORAL
- eth·i·cal·i·ty /"e-th&-'ka-l&-tE/ noun
- eth·i·cal·ly /'e-thi-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- eth·i·cal·ness /-k&l-n&s/ noun

I just may point out that her "report" seemed biased and do as renderman suggested and ask about her sources and credentials. Because her facts appear to be a little, shall we say off. But I imagine that a course named Persuasion Is the updated Course name for what is commonly known as "Debate Class/Team" and opinions are needed in order to start a good argument.

I would congratulate her on sticking to the assignment and or demonstrating the effects of propaganda. If it was to orally demonstrate " propaganda on the internet and how useful it is as a tool for propaganda." She demonstrated that 100%. Internet Propaganda, and most other main stream media, have affected the the phrase "hacker" so much it almost can not be treated impartially, and is widely accepted as a derogatory term for a criminal-unethical-malicious-smarter than you-nerd. The image she paints is of This Guy going home to A DARK HACKER LAIR and has the ability to do This to your hard drive, myspace, and all of humanity anytime he/she chooses. ( Probably an assumed HE )

Its up to you to take an opinion on the subject and go with it. Some could say she was (3) conforming to accepted standards of conduct and (2) involving or expressing moral approval or disapproval <ethical judgments>.

I would correct her facts, or advise her to research them more as she can only become a tool of propaganda herself by spreading false facts and mis representations. People fall victim of propaganda from websites promoting the incredibly unethical as well as harmless stuff way over on the other end of teh intar-web like dying from eating pop rocks and coke.

Its important to remember that the "ethical" thing is always based on general popular consensus at any given point in time, ethical is an ever shifting scale of opinion followed by your peers. Think of all the things we have done over time that in todays day in age would be considered unethical. What is "Ethical" Evolves as advancements in law, understanding, technology, and alternative choices increase.

Me personally I think the word hack or hacker depends entirely on how you use it in a sentence but it is becoming increasingly difficult to find an appropriate or comfortable use for it. I'm not one of the people who thinks "hacking" is right or wrong, I don't care if you use the word "hacker" or "reverse engineer", not only do I think both nicknames suck but the forum isn't the place for me to start to make ethical judgments. I will say however I'm often uncomfortable saying something like I'm going to find a way to "hack it" or I have a Hacked/cracked version, or anything that imply modification or using something in a way other than its intended function, because it casts an unrealistic portrayal on what I'm doing. The "Hacker" Label has been known to cause others to view or treat me differently, calling me for unrealistic favors, treating me as the cause and savior of mysterious network problems, assuming i can do things i have no freaking knowledge about, I am not Angelina Jolie in Hackers Because I know how to create a theme on my sidekick 3 or Mod toys or games in one way or another.
Because I could set up a network printer and "fix the whole wide internet" using CMD I was called a "Hacker" and was often victim of persecution because of little simple things i could do that others did not understand. A common thread amongst minorities, ignorance causes people to attack/slander/label things out of fear.

I think we need to unveil society's mystical hacker by supporting this trend as of late by actually describing what the person is doing instead. Ive noticed lately ive been reading articles where they say things like "Phisher caught", "0-day attacker", "Bot Net Teen" and i would have to say that I appreciate the media making an attempt to explain what the person has done or what a particular term means. These things are not hard concepts to understand, people are slowly getting it and that is good.

Anyways, Does anyone think this sounds familiar? I think it reminds me of many things society has broken free of, terms for people or ethnic groups we have now grown out of and no longer considered acceptable for general use. Hacker one day will be one of those words considered for retirement as its a word used to describe a minority and is also widely used to imply criminal deviants. (and yes i actually do consider programmers, super geeks, tweakers, phreakers, crackers, dorks and nerds, a minority in todays society )

If she agrees to verify the facts she was given, I will gladly answer any questions regarding Defcon and would be a great direct source considering I am a member of the "super elite group ". my name at defcon dot org is my email if she has questions. I don't mind answering legitimate questions. This rant is getting long, sorry bout that. :-)
/rant

[astcell]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

People like that will always treasure the initial misconceptions they had about us. And the more we try to correct them, the more we are "confirming" their suspicions.

In some cases I say let them go ahead and think what they think. I sort of like the fact that I am seen as omnipotent. Here are things I have personally experienced:

Supposedly I can follow you around all day using Internet linked security cameras. I can see you at the gas station, donut shop, the mall, you name it. Everyone is on camera 50 times a day and I have them all.

A family member complained that people got info about her using Google, and she asked me to delete said entries.

When someone sees a URL that is one of those cgi-bin related "text from hell" entires, some people think I know that stuff by heart and type it in because I know where everything is on the Internet.

One time I had a brand new crisp $1 bill, it was so new it even smelled new, and I left it on my desk and admired how flat it was except for the tiny raised seal and security areas. It was just brand spanking new and I wanted to admire it for a moment. Then someone walks by and asked if I just made that, and it looks pretty good.

Yea, let them think that.

[converge]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

I honostly do hope homeland security is watching me ... I would love to contribute to the complete waste of resources that it is. Last thing I terrorized was a guinea pig .. I would warn folks that my next target is the toilet.. but I should probably give the government a 15 year lead to figure that one out; besides, I'm not a 1337ed hax-r .. obviously lacking both MIRC and movie posts. nothing to see hear

[theprez98]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Damn, I must be the only one with the 1337 mIRC hacker script toolbar.

[astcell]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Damn, I must be the only one with the 1337 mIRC hacker script toolbar.

I have the Yahoo Toolbar, I don't know how it got there.... oh 1337 am I...

[Chris]

Re: What is the ethical thing to do?

Last night in Persuasion we had to do an oral presentation on propaganda on the internet and how useful it is as a tool for propaganda. One of my fellow students did a presentation on “hackers”. First off let me state that I am not truly a hacker, I know my way around a workstation but I wouldn’t say that I have any true and wondrous skill.

So with that in mind here is what I learned about hackers.

- They know everything. They already know your drivers license number, and your mother’s name. Don’t try hiding anything from them, they know it all already.
- MIRC: This only LOOKS like an instant messaging thing. This is how hackers control computers. In fact the hacker friend that she interviewed said that he could “nuke” computers and that there was a toolbar that had different scripts on how to do anything from reboot your machine to blow the keyboard off of your desk.
- Defcon was this super elite group that in order to be a member of it you had to be on the FBI’s top watch list to be on it. Also the person who is highest on the watch list is the one who is in charge at Defcon. She mentioned that the FBI and CIA hire exclusively from the annual convention and that spotting the fed is the best way to “advance in the hacker ranks”
- Finally she demonstrated how we all could download a movie from a message board and that all hackers already have these movies and post them all the time for people to watch. I didn’t write the web address down, Sorry. I guess I’m not a hacker at heart.

Now. Here’s the participation part of this whole project.

Do I correct her beliefs about the hacker community?

My answer is no. I know what I believe to be bullshit. My skills are not as developed as some other individuals on this board who more closely identify with the label of hacker. So what would you do?

And exactly which piece of this is inaccurate? Sounds like she has her finger on the pulse of the scene to me. Don't be a hater.