ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

[Deviant Ollam]

file this one either under "pirates" or "personal freedoms"... but either way there's at least some tangential relevance to the forums community here, i'd think.

Council bans boy, 6, from flying Jolly Roger

As his sixth birthday approached, Morgan Smith's parents thought hoisting the Jolly Roger would be the perfect way to make the pirate-mad youngster's day. The flag was duly run up the pole in the back garden, leaving Morgan looking forward to a party on Saturday with lots of friends wearing eyepatches and wielding toy cutlasses.

But little did the family know that out on the treacherous high seas of bureaucracy, trouble was heading their way. Council officials branded the skull and crossbones flag "unneighbourly" and banned Morgan's parents Richard and Sharon from flying it.

the article (which doesn't sport a byline, so i can't confirm where the fuck this took place. i'm guessing somewhere in the UK simply because this is the Daily Mail) goes on to report that the family can opt to pay the government some sort of clerical processing fee (a rather stiff £75) in order to start a "review process" under which the government would assess what sort of impact this act of free expression would have and then make a judgment on whether or not it is allowed.

i draw the following conclusions...

1. the UK is continuing the process of becoming an Orwellian nightmare with unabated speed and vigor
2. i am continuing my process of becoming a bigger and bigger curmudgeon who finds fault with governments everywhere
3. this kid has some pretty cool parents

[noid]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

Hey, dont knock Europe. They're smarter than us dumb Yanks. I mean, we're idiots because we let our government run all over us and take our rights away, they got it all figured out..hey, wait a minute..

[TheCotMan]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

file this one either under "pirates" or "personal freedoms"... but either way there's at least some tangential relevance to the forums community here, i'd think.

Council bans boy, 6, from flying Jolly Rogerthe article (which doesn't sport a byline, so i can't confirm where the fuck this took place. i'm guessing somewhere in the UK simply because this is the Daily Mail) goes on to report that the family can opt to pay the government some sort of clerical processing fee (a rather stiff £75) in order to start a "review process" under which the government would assess what sort of impact this act of free expression would have and then make a judgment on whether or not it is allowed.

Sorry. I... can't... resist!

Politics on the Defcon Forums are rated Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (Restricted with limits)

Heh heh.

i draw the following conclusions...

1. the UK is continuing the process of becoming an Orwellian nightmare with unabated speed and vigor
2. i am continuing my process of becoming a bigger and bigger curmudgeon who finds fault with governments everywhere
3. this kid has some pretty cool parents

I will play the Devil's Advocate for this next reply:

A skull and cross-bones was used to describe poison or death, and was co-opted by pirates as a symbol to invoke fear in their enemies-- keepers of future pirate booty.

Taking the original meaning, could hoisting the Jolly Roger, suggest the land or house is poisoned, toxic, deadly, or harmful, and lower the property value?

Could neighbors assume the intention of the flag is the same as that desired by pirates, and act to create fear in the minds of the neighbors? If neighbors do feel fear at the sight of such a flag, could the act of hoisting the flag be an act of terrorism?

]:>

Oh yeah... Rated arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! (That is way too much fun.)

[Shinobi]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

Ahh this is typical of local UK goverment. How do they waste so much time?

It's the jolly roger flag for ***'s sake. I'd agree with the council if the 6 year old liked to fly the SS/Nazi flag.

Were loosing our rights man.... There taking our freedom....

[theprez98]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

The 'Calico Jack' Rackham version of the Jolly Roger is going up here as soon as it arrives in the mail.

[renderman]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

If it's unneighborly, then that means that I'm 'that guy' on my block. Mines been flying quite proudly for a month now.

Seriously though, who was it that complained since it was probably only going to be up for a day anyways?

Render

[Thorn]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

It's the jolly roger flag for ***'s sake. I'd agree with the council if the 6 year old liked to fly the SS/Nazi flag.

First, let me express the thought that this has now gone firmly into Goodwin's Law territory. However, playing the Devil's Advocate (2): Where do you draw that line? There are a lot of groups who's viewpoints I abhor*, but I think they have the right to express their viewpoints via speech or symbolism such as flying flags no matter how unpopular those viewpoints may be.

The problem is that if some groups are not allowed to express their opinions freely through either speech or symbolism, you're already well on the way to limiting everyone's speech because it doesn't fit into the controlling/popular group's given ideology, whether it may be political, religious, sexual, or what have you.

*and I'm not about to start a list- I won't fall into that trap.

[theprez98]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

The 'Calico Jack' Rackham version of the Jolly Roger is going up here as soon as it arrives in the mail.

The flag in question arrived today!

[noid]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

I currently fly a Gonzales Flag and a Gadsen Flag at my place of business.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

I currently fly a Gonzales Flag and a Gadsen Flag at my place of business.

holy hell... how could i have never heard of the Gonzales Flag?? hope you don't consider me a biter, but i'm seriously thinking of adding that one to my office, which currently harbors flags from the Green Mountain Boys as well as the Gadsden Flag (the latter emblem also appears in the form of a Culpepper Minutemen sticker on the back corner of my Jeep CJ, covering a rust hole)

any suggestions on where to get a proper reproduction of the Gonzales Flag? i found one site, but their version doesn't appear to do justice to the original.

[Shinobi]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

First, let me express the thought that this has now gone firmly into Goodwin's Law territory. However, playing the Devil's Advocate (2): Where do you draw that line? There are a lot of groups who's viewpoints I abhor*, but I think they have the right to express their viewpoints via speech or symbolism such as flying flags no matter how unpopular those viewpoints may be.

The problem is that if some groups are not allowed to express their opinions freely through either speech or symbolism, you're already well on the way to limiting everyone's speech because it doesn't fit into the controlling/popular group's given ideology, whether it may be political, religious, sexual, or what have you.

*and I'm not about to start a list- I won't fall into that trap.

I'm not going to list names either but I believe a clear line can be drawn between the few examples I gave

[Thorn]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

I'm not going to list names either but I believe a clear line can be drawn between the few examples I gave

I do not, because it limits free speech.

Are they extreme? Sure. Are they unpopular? Yup. Distasteful to most people? Yes, again. Do individuals have a right to hold those views? Hopefully they do have that right, or you've already started down the line to having thought police.

The problem becomes that if a given society doesn't allow view points that are "unacceptable", then that society advocates the exact same thing that the the groups you find so wrong are advocating: Certain thoughts and viewpoints not in accordance with our group's tenets are forbidden.

If you look at any extremist group (political, religious, what have you) it doesn't matter what the viewpoint is particularly. What matters is that the group absolutely forbids other, opposing viewpoints.

"We of the _____ are correct in all of our views. These people are ______ , and are therefore bad. Anyone who espouses their viewpoint is also bad and is not to be tolerated. They are to be bent to our will and our viewpoint or they are to be eliminated."

Fill in the blanks with any group opposed to any group and you begin to see how it works. Now invert the groups you've filled in there, and you really see how it works.

As long as someone is not actively harming another person or persons based on their views, then they need to have a right to that opinion no matter how abhorrent to others. You and I don't have to agree with it, but we must tolerate that they are able to hold that viewpoint no matter how much we agree or disagree with it. To do anything else limits free speech.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

Are they extreme? Sure. Are they unpopular? Yup. Distasteful to most people? Yes, again. Do individuals have a right to hold those views? Hopefully they do have that right, or you've already started down the line to having thought police. ... As long as someone is not actively harming another person or persons based on their views, then they need to have a right to that opinion no matter how abhorrent to others. You and I don't have to agree with it, but we must tolerate that they are able to hold that viewpoint no matter how much we agree or disagree with it. To do anything else limits free speech.

i agree with all of your points 100%, and they are the best and most pure foundation ever for freedom. however, there is one other point that doesn't get raised as often... it's not the bedrock of liberty by any means, but it's a helpful club to have in the bag when dealing with individuals who don't have a fundamental understanding of the concept of freedom. the pragmatic benefit, in short, is that free speech means that we (society at large) has a much better opportunity to see whom and where the extremists actually are.

when someone who completely can't get their head around freedom starts to blather about speech codes or the need to censor offensive or distasteful or even abhorrent speech, i simply point out that most people would like to be in the know if the KKK is trying to start a chapter in their town or if their neighbor believes that a cadre of international bankers was behind the sept. 11th attacks or if their kid's little league coach thinks that aliens are holding secret talks with george bush and OPEC in order to influence the price of oil. free speech is healthy not just because it protects the minority opinions, but because it protects the majority's flank.

[Shinobi]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

Are they extreme? Sure. Are they unpopular? Yup. Distasteful to most people? Yes, again. Do individuals have a right to hold those views? Hopefully they do have that right, or you've already started down the line to having thought police. ... As long as someone is not actively harming another person or persons based on their views, then they need to have a right to that opinion no matter how abhorrent to others. You and I don't have to agree with it, but we must tolerate that they are able to hold that viewpoint no matter how much we agree or disagree with it. To do anything else limits free speech.

I will agree with 99.99999%. I agree everyone has rights to do and believe anything they want. I agree and support this. I do have a big thing against right wing politics. Thats me. I understand however poeople have there own views and I'm not going to tell them otherwise. I geuss under freedom of speech I have the right not to like the right. Any way enough of politics, may politics never make their way back onto the forum.....

[theprez98]

Re: ninja or pirate? in the UK the choice is made for you

Someone save this thread from the slippery political slope!