Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

[TheCotMan]

Every year there is a problem in getting a notice out to all event leaders and organizers, to have them submit their contest or event information early enough to make it into the program, and their "Want list" earliy enough to get a room, or location with things like power and/or networking or more.

How would you feel about a thread that allowed anyone to reply to it? By posting just one reply, your forum-registered email address is added to a list. When Russ, or Grifter, or any other Goon posts a statement to the forums requesting information, or asking for reservations or space requirements, an email could then be sent out to all users on the list.

This could help everyone to get their information in to the goons on-time, and helps avoid those last-minute rushes, and risks to not being included in the program, or getting access to the resources they need in the space selected for them.

What do you think? Less stress for everyone?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

What do you think? Less stress for everyone?

sure, whatever's easiest for the people in charge of all the logistics. of course, i tend to be of the mindset that you plan properly and get your house in order way, way in advance or else you bear the consequences... but that's just me.

[shrdlu]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

Every year there is a problem in getting a notice out to all event leaders and organizers, to have them submit their contest or event information early enough to make it into the program, and their "Want list" earliy enough to get a room, or location with things like power and/or networking or more.

Yeah, this sad fact is the number one reason I'm on the forums, and pay attention (more or less) to them. At one time, contest organizers just dealt with email, and that was that. Personally, this forum thing is my least favorite way to deal with details, but you've got to go with the flow, so here I am. It makes it a lot harder if you aren't here, however.

How would you feel about a thread that allowed anyone to reply to it? By posting just one reply, your forum-registered email address is added to a list. When Russ, or Grifter, or any other Goon posts a statement to the forums requesting information, or asking for reservations or space requirements, an email could then be sent out to all users on the list.

What do you think? Less stress for everyone?

It seems that this makes one more thing where everything seems pushed to the forums, and honestly, it may be easier for staff, but not so inclusive of the population at large. It rather makes me feel that non-forum attendees become second class users. Strangely enough, however, many people just come to defcon for the talks. Not the contests, certainly not the parties, just the information.

Sorry to sound so negative (and I've had coffee, so that isn't an excuse), and we responded back to Russ right away (on April 17, 2007) on our needs (which are always pretty simple), but really, somehow there needs to be some way that we don't lose the big picture.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

sure, whatever's easiest for the people in charge of all the logistics. of course, i tend to be of the mindset that you plan properly and get your house in order way, way in advance or else you bear the consequences... but that's just me.

Heh heh, yeah, having people be responsible for their own contest is a good idea, but many people don't think about their contest or event back in January.

Yeah, this sad fact is the number one reason I'm on the forums, and pay attention (more or less) to them. At one time, contest organizers just dealt with email, and that was that. Personally, this forum thing is my least favorite way to deal with details, but you've got to go with the flow, so here I am. It makes it a lot harder if you aren't here, however.

It seems that this makes one more thing where everything seems pushed to the forums, and honestly, it may be easier for staff, but not so inclusive of the population at large. It rather makes me feel that non-forum attendees become second class users. Strangely enough, however, many people just come to defcon for the talks. Not the contests, certainly not the parties, just the information.

Sorry to sound so negative (and I've had coffee, so that isn't an excuse), and we responded back to Russ right away (on April 17, 2007) on our needs (which are always pretty simple), but really, somehow there needs to be some way that we don't lose the big picture.

It is my understanding that there may be a new mailing list mailserver in the future of Defcon. If this is the case, then a new list for contest leader/organizers could be suggested. (Maybe an announce list and/or a discussion list?) If such a list were added, maybe email addresses from people that have signed-up in a thread to have their forum-registered email addresses used for notices, could be added to the subscribe-only list.

My worry here is that if we don't get contact information from people running contests before defcon, then, any mail server that goes live in September won't be ready to send announcements to leaders/organizers at the next defcon event that gets cancelled.

I realize that some people don't like the forums, and that the forums are a client-pull technology that require an investment of time from readers in order to keep up on contest information.

If/when a new mailing list server comes on line, we could have a server-push technology to let people know when something may need their attention.

Also, for people like you (shrdlu) you can "subscribe to a thread" in any part of the forums, and then when someone replies to any thread you've subscribed, you get one email message letting you know of the reply until you visit the forums again to read the replies in subscribed threads. Yeas, this is not the same thing as a mailing list, but it could help you to avoid the forums until there is activity in threads you care about.

Something that is worthy of note:Wasn't the first Defcon a group of people that knew each other from BBS or a degree of separation away from bbs, that wanted to meet for a party in person? It is funny to think that a forum is kind of like a modernized BBS with the internet as a possible userbase. :-)

Forums can even have a Usenet-like appearance, but with graphics and moderation. Threading is possible, search is there, organization is there and delegation is possible. (I don't know if this comparison is a good thing, though.)

[shrdlu]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

It is my understanding that there may be a new mailing list mailserver in the future of Defcon. If this is the case, then a new list for contest leader/organizers could be suggested. (Maybe an announce list and/or a discussion list?) If such a list were added, maybe email addresses from people that have signed-up in a thread to have their forum-registered email addresses used for notices, could be added to the subscribe-only list.

Well, I will point out that both Foofus (my cohort in crime, and the one with actual people skills) and I consistently receive email from Russ (hi, Russ), and in plenty of time to handle things. It seems like this is rather reinventing the wheel.

My worry here is that if we don't get contact information from people running contests before defcon, then, any mail server that goes live in September won't be ready to send announcements to leaders/organizers at the next defcon event that gets cancelled.

cf my comment about Russ. I'm confused. Why not just warn each contest organizer that they need to be sure and have all applicable people's information for this purpose, and then set up some specific day in which it should be sent.

I realize that some people don't like the forums, and that the forums are a client-pull technology that require an investment of time from readers in order to keep up on contest information.

If/when a new mailing list server comes on line, we could have a server-push technology to let people know when something may need their attention.

As I'd said earlier, Russ already does this. Is this something that Russ will be subsumed by, or is it in addition to the gentle reminders that go out in the spring?

Also, for people like you (shrdlu) you can "subscribe to a thread" in any part of the forums, and then when someone replies to any thread you've subscribed, you get one email message letting you know of the reply until you visit the forums again to read the replies in subscribed threads. Yeas, this is not the same thing as a mailing list, but it could help you to avoid the forums until there is activity in threads you care about.

I know all about the subscribe to a thread thing, but will point out that it doesn't help at all, since almost any thread that is going to affect me is new. I just check in every couple of days or so, consistently, to make sure that something new isn't up. This thread, for example.

Something that is worthy of note:Wasn't the first Defcon a group of people that knew each other from BBS or a degree of separation away from bbs, that wanted to meet for a party in person? It is funny to think that a forum is kind of like a modernized BBS with the internet as a possible userbase. :-)

You're sort of right on the beginning, but I think of a forum as almost nothing like a BBS. YMMV. Stuff like that.

I think even Defcon II was still mostly the same bunch of folk. Defcon III was where other people (such as myself) sat up and took notice. It frightens me to realize how very long I've been hanging out in this milieu.

Forums can even have a Usenet-like appearance, but with graphics and moderation. Threading is possible, search is there, organization is there and delegation is possible. (I don't know if this comparison is a good thing, though.)

Ah, Usenet. I miss Usenet. I quit reading, of course, more than ten years ago, but it used to be wonderful. BTW, there were always moderated newsgroups. Smiley faces make me nauseous, so I'm not too sure that graphics is a good thing.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

Well, I will point out that both Foofus (my cohort in crime, and the one with actual people skills) and I consistently receive email from Russ (hi, Russ), and in plenty of time to handle things. It seems like this is rather reinventing the wheel.

Not re-inventing it. Email has existed longer than forums. At the very least, Russ could get the list of email addresses for future announcements, and round off email addresses for contacts that he does not yet have. Obviously, a mailing list for contests/events would only get off the ground if Russ wanted to use it.

cf my comment about Russ. I'm confused. Why not just warn each contest organizer that they need to be sure and have all applicable people's information for this purpose, and then set up some specific day in which it should be sent.

Well yes, this is the intention. However, how do you get contact information from people looking to run contests if they have not run them?

Sending an announcement to individuals to ask for new contact information so you can announce things to them, does seem like a bit of a paradox.

This year, Russ' early announcement and call for contest/event information didn't get a timely response that direct email would likely have provided.

This is the problem I am trying to solve. Getting contact information from people that want to be contacted so future announcements from Russ have a chance at a timely response. About 4/5th of the active forum users don't regularly visit the forums until about 1 or 2 months before Defcon. The forums won't help users that don't log in to check them, and I don't want to force them to do so. Email would be the better technology for directed announcements. People poll their email much more often than then poll the forums when defcon is 6 months away. However, in order to announce such information to people, there is need for contact information, and I don't want to give away any non-banned forum member's contact information to anyone unless the forum member agrees to it. A thread for people to do this would give me permission to pass on that information to Russ or a mailing list.

As I'd said earlier, Russ already does this. Is this something that Russ will be subsumed by, or is it in addition to the gentle reminders that go out in the spring?

If a person signed up to a thread and previously had email from Russ, they probably would receive duplicate notices. The problem I am trying to solve is one of getting contact information from people that will run contests or events so that Russ and BlackBeetle can get information from them, and decrease risk of contests/events being omitted from the program, and involvement from people at Defcon.

I know all about the subscribe to a thread thing, but will point out that it doesn't help at all, since almost any thread that is going to affect me is new. I just check in every couple of days or so, consistently, to make sure that something new isn't up. This thread, for example.

Good point. No solutions to notices of New Threads except that cient-pull instead of server push.

You're sort of right on the beginning, but I think of a forum as almost nothing like a BBS. YMMV. Stuff like that.

In the beginning things were one way, then they changed.

Is it your view that, "those that do not learn from history are *doomed* to repeat it," , or is that my view? ]:>

They are similar in that they have areas of discussion, and things like "PM"
They are different in that they don't have much in the way of download-able applications, online games, and other extra features.

It would be too time-consuming to compare the social differences, since not all BBS shared the same social similarities either.

I think even Defcon II was still mostly the same bunch of folk. Defcon III was where other people (such as myself) sat up and took notice. It frightens me to realize how very long I've been hanging out in this milieu.

Starting to feel old yet?

Hey! Pop quiz! Do you spend more time thinking about your retirement, or the latest fad or music? ]:>

Ah, Usenet. I miss Usenet. I quit reading, of course, more than ten years ago, but it used to be wonderful. BTW, there were always moderated newsgroups. Smiley faces make me nauseous, so I'm not too sure that graphics is a good thing.

Well, there were not always moderated news groups, since there was a time there were no newsgroups. (heh heh. Yes, I think I know what you really meant.)

I really do enjoy reading your style of writing. It is witty and entertaining to read. Unfortunately, I can't provide you with a similar entertaining experience. I can, however, try to provide you with a complementary entertaining experience:
"Huh-huh. Huh-huh. Frog baseball!"

[shrdlu]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

It's so limiting, commenting on a multiple post thread. I rather miss the ability of email, here, to make the multiple levels of commenting that are really going on. On the other hand, most threads in the forums don't really seem at that level, so I suppose it doesn't much matter.

Not re-inventing it. Email has existed longer than forums. At the very least, Russ could get the list of email addresses for future announcements, and round off email addresses for contacts that he does not yet have. Obviously, a mailing list for contests/events would only get off the ground if Russ wanted to use it.

So, you're doing this just because? I can only expect that Russ knows (he does, after all, read the forums).

Well yes, this [warning contest organizers] is the intention. However, how do you get contact information from people looking to run contests if they have not run them?

Well, there are some who'd say that we seem to have an overload of contests, but then, to each his own. Of course, you could as easily get this information off of some form on the web site. I wonder how many people have thought of contests that are not even particularly aware of the forums?

This year, Russ' early announcement and call for contest/event information didn't get a timely response that direct email would likely have provided.

The early announcement I was speaking of *was* the email announcement. He emailed, Foofus and I talked privately, and then he sent our response back to Russ. On the other hand, even Russ would say that the two of us are pretty low maintenance, and dependable.

...Email would be the better technology for directed announcements. People poll their email much more often than then poll the forums when defcon is 6 months away. However, in order to announce such information to people, there is need for contact information, and I don't want to give away any non-banned forum member's contact information to anyone unless the forum member agrees to it. A thread for people to do this would give me permission to pass on that information to Russ or a mailing list.

I can't argue this. I do still wonder at people who have ongoing contests, and yet don't respond to Russ' first email request. I'm sure that this is not a small set.

You're sort of right on the beginning, but I think of a forum as almost nothing like a BBS. YMMV. Stuff like that.

Is it your view that, "those that do not learn from history are *doomed* to repeat it," , or is that my view? ]:>

I don't see how that follows. "A forum is not like a BBS" is not the same as this quote. You have also phrased this in such a way that one of us must agree, and yet it is unrelated. I am thinking of withholding your cookie for the day.

They are similar in that they have areas of discussion, and things like "PM" They are different in that they don't have much in the way of download-able applications, online games, and other extra features.

BBSs were more like chat rooms, many times, than like a forum. I suppose we must agree to disagree, here.

Starting to feel old yet?

Hey! Pop quiz! Do you spend more time thinking about your retirement, or the latest fad or music? ]:>

Uh-oh. No cookie for you. I am *much* older than I think you are expecting. I don't need to think about retirement. I *am* retired (for nearly one and a half years, now). I would think that I never thought about the latest fad, and certainly never about "popular" music, unless you consider Bach, Handel, and Puccini to be representatives thereof.

Well, there were not always moderated news groups, since there was a time there were no newsgroups. (heh heh. Yes, I think I know what you really meant.)

Okay, smarty. Back in the day before the great renaming, when all newsgroups started with net.*, there were not moderated newsgroups. However, there was the equivalent not too long after, with the old inet.* groups not being treated in such a way as others, and certainly, comp.ai was moderated almost from the beginning (albeit with a very light hand).

I really do enjoy reading your style of writing. It is witty and entertaining to read. Unfortunately, I can't provide you with a similar entertaining experience. I can, however, try to provide you with a complementary entertaining experience:

"Huh-huh. Huh-huh. Frog baseball!"

Funny you should say that. It's still frog season here; the little tadpoles are still growing front feet in the ponds and canals here and there. Some nights it's quite deafening, if you get close enough to a large concentration. I don't see them playing baseball, but then, they are rather shy.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

So, you're doing this just because? I can only expect that Russ knows (he does, after all, read the forums).

A few months back, he complained to me that the responses to the announcements didn't seem to be working. People that had previously run contests were not sending in notices in a timely manner. I let him know that last year I sent email to users* that made their intentions to run a contest or event knows, but did not yet notify Russ or BlackBeetle.

*- Only users with contests or events not yet listed on the site

I don't like sending email reminders, since I feel like I am a spammer, and I don't like spammers. The only people I hate more than spammers are people that have self-hate, so imagine the horror of predicting a possible future.

Well, there are some who'd say that we seem to have an overload of contests, but then, to each his own.

Luckily, this is not my problem. It is up to Russ to decide priorities, contests and resource allocation. The only problem I am trying to solve is one that takes me out of the whole email loop. Getting permission from users to ad them to a mailing list (or give the addresses to Russ for mass-mailings, which becomes a de facto mailing list) is what I was looking to acquire.

Of course, you could as easily get this information off of some form on the web site. I wonder how many people have thought of contests that are not even particularly aware of the forums?

As I see it, the problem exists in 3 areas:
1) Uninformed
2) Informed but lazy
3) Informed but forgetful
(Though more areas may exist.)

The early announcement I was speaking of *was* the email announcement. He emailed, Foofus and I talked privately, and then he sent our response back to Russ. On the other hand, even Russ would say that the two of us are pretty low maintenance, and dependable.

He was able to email you because he had the email address of at least one of your contest's leaders or organizers.

I can't argue this. I do still wonder at people who have ongoing contests, and yet don't respond to Russ' first email request. I'm sure that this is not a small set.

These would probably be from group 2 or group 3 since I can't see how group 1 would apply-- except for cases like amnesia, and even then, wouldn't group 3 apply?

("Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.")

I don't see how that follows. "A forum is not like a BBS" is not the same as this quote. You have also phrased this in such a way that one of us must agree, and yet it is unrelated.

The relation of the above quote to the discussion encounters intersection on the point of similarity between bbs and forums. An older technology existed, and was reborn as something new. (My view.) Within this explicit context, the quote is shown to be a statement about my agreement to bbs being similar to forums. My asking if this was you agreeing to it, or me, was an attempt at humor, using the fallacy of false choice, along with a quote often cited to be true, and further complicate this with another fallacy of asserting the consequence, through claim that since I see history repeating itself, someone must not be learning.
Well, now it is not nearly as funny as it was before. Perhaps I can gain some joy in pointing out that with the above, two wrongs (fallacies) don't make a right.

I am thinking of withholding your cookie for the day.

Sad. Panda. No cookie. I guess I will have to dig up that $200 Mrs Fields cookie recipe. Or was it $100? (heh heh)

BBSs were more like chat rooms, many times, than like a forum. I suppose we must agree to disagree, here.

I disagree. Oh wait. Ok.

Uh-oh. No cookie for you. I am *much* older than I think you are expecting. I don't need to think about retirement. I *am* retired (for nearly one and a half years, now). I would think that I never thought about the latest fad, and certainly never about "popular" music, unless you consider Bach, Handel, and Puccini to be representatives thereof.

Dang it all. I mis-estimated your age. I figured you were close to retirement, but I didn't figure you were on the other side of it.

Okay, smarty.

Yes. My pants are smart, so I don't have to be. ]:>

Back in the day before the great renaming, when all newsgroups started with net.*, there were not moderated newsgroups. However, there was the equivalent not too long after, with the old inet.* groups not being treated in such a way as others, and certainly, comp.ai was moderated almost from the beginning (albeit with a very light hand).

Additionally, weren't certain, non-mods able to post to moderated newsgroups if they knew the secret handshake-- err list of servers for message propagation? (Or at least get the message posted on a few servers that carried that newsgroup.)

Funny you should say that. It's still frog season here; the little tadpoles are still growing front feet in the ponds and canals here and there. Some nights it's quite deafening, if you get close enough to a large concentration. I don't see them playing baseball, but then, they are rather shy.

Well, it is never too late to learn a new sport.

Unrelated, if we feed enough coffee to frogs, would the pitch of their croak get higher, or more frequent, or would something entirely different happen? I ask this, because maybe the frogs got into your coffee, and addicted, and then became over-stimulated. This might explain why there are so many frogs, and maybe their nervousness is being confused with shyness.

[shrdlu]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

Unrelated, if we feed enough coffee to frogs, would the pitch of their croak get higher, or more frequent, or would something entirely different happen? I ask this, because maybe the frogs got into your coffee, and addicted, and then became over-stimulated. This might explain why there are so many frogs, and maybe their nervousness is being confused with shyness.

Just remember, you asked for this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/gurneyh/398552895/

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: Question for Leaders and Organizers of events and email notices...

Wait, ok, so when are we going to start the Defcon BBS then? I was a sysop once... 1989?