The Madigan Incident

[AcidicA]

Re: The Madigan Incident

On DcTv there should be a high def version of the film done by another member of the Dc reporters pervebial asskicking squad that shows goons...infact it shows one goon also taking pics. We deserve our retribution. We did alot less then we could have done and most groups would have done. maybe she could have pulled a gun. maybe she could have pulled on a press badge and owned up. And maybe just maybe I could have gotten a free massage while I was at the con. but none of that happened. None of that happened so its now the past and all we can do is go forward.

[not5150]

Re: The Madigan Incident

ps: the reason i brought up the gun laws was to show that had she been carrying (which is not an unreasonable assumption in a state like Nevada) and put in fear of grievous bodily harm (not just fear of her life, but fear of being badly hurt) and had she fired, the courts would have sided with her, even though our people *never* touched her.

Ummm no. I don't have time to give you basic understanding of laws, but I will say that there are statutory laws (the wonderful laws that you've been quoting, from another state even) and there is case law. Case law clarifies the meaning behind statutory laws.

Reading a few sentences of the law or taking a CCW class does NOT make you a legal expert and the feds, current and former law enforcement members on this board are laughing at your posts.

I was one of the reporters in the group that was following her. I, along with several other reporters, Goons and attendees, have first hand knowledge of the incident. Madigan was in no danger while walking to her car.

She didn't almost hit another car while driving out, she merely drove into the wrong corner and had to turn around.

[skroo]

Re: The Madigan Incident

This female chose to work in a dangerous field and is well aware of these dangers. Anytime a person goes undercover, there is a risk. Sorry, ... but she knows the risk to her job. If she doesn't, she needs to go back to journalism school!

Agreed. More:

Using the perception of 'male vs. female' argument doesn't work in this case any more than it works in law enforcement.

I'm assuming that this was directed at my earlier comments. As it happens - and I'm not involved with law enforcement - women do tend to react differently in a given situation than men. Her observed behaviour in this particular case is a fairly clear example of that; watch Cops for more examples if necessary. By no means am I saying that this is a hard-and-fast rule, but it does stand true in most cases.

But, what concerns me is public perception.

Ah, OK. That clarifies things a bit more.

Tf people who love hacking, percieve the video as somewhat disturbing, how much more so will Joe Public.

Valid point. Thing is, perceptions on an individual level are uncontrollable since they're basically a matter of opinion. Prejudice (in the literal sense), if you will. Having said that... The events on Friday tend to touch on certain aspects that most people who identify themselves with this community see as important, notably equitability and accountability.

Not everyone's going to see it that way, and I understand that it can be hard to comprehend in context if you've never had the exposure to how things work at Defcon - but this brings us back to the question of experience. Thing is, just because people might perceive things to be a certain way doesn't make them right - and, in those cases, it's better to present them with evidence to the contrary from which they might make a better-informed opinion.

And Joe Public already is irrational about us

Perhaps I'm out of touch, but the sensationalism involving 3v0l h4x0rZ seems to have died down over the past few years - not that there haven't been sporadic attempts to revive it, but it pretty much seems to have fallen flat on its face each time it happened.

so much so that legal penalties for hackers are much stricter than those of Murderers (ask Kevin Mitnik)

You can spend more time in jail in this state for being one point over the drink-driving limit than if you were a child molester. I understand your point, but beware of generalities - and the Mitnick case is a giant poster child for generalities in law being stretched to their extremes.

ps: the reason i brought up the gun laws was to show that had she been carrying (which is not an unreasonable assumption in a state like Nevada)

Actually, it is. Nevada's CCW laws are certainly better than where I live, but she'd still be a non-resident CCW holder at best given her New York residency. Assuming that Nevada will issue to an NYC applicant (huge legal concerns there involving NYC laws re: handguns), that doesn't necessarily mean that Clark County recognises her non-resident CCW. I'll have to re-check the Nevada CCW laws, but my fuzzy memory is that Clark County is somehow pre-empted from the rest of the state.

In any event, this means it's doubtful she had a gun in her purse. And, quite frankly, if she had been truly in fear for her life, we'd have a number of plugged reporters and goons who had followed her out of the room in the Las Vegas Coroner's morgue right now.

Incidentally, if there is one piece of advice I would give everyone following this thread: stop trying to be an armchair lawyer. None of us really have a complete grasp of interstate CCW laws or reciprocatons, and quite frankly, CONCEALED CARRY HAS SHIT-ALL TO DO WITH THIS THREAD. Kthxswallowplz, moving back on topic now instead of into the theoretical.

As for how others perceive us, it's not going to change no matter what. We're now labeled as 'Terrorist' for gawd sake!...

References, please.

I was one of the reporters in the group that was following her. I, along with several other reporters, Goons and attendees, have first hand knowledge of the incident. Madigan was in no danger while walking to her car.

She didn't almost hit another car while driving out, she merely drove into the wrong corner and had to turn around.

Eyewitness report. Now, can we finally put her apparent mistreatment to bed? Hell, if I could see the same thing on pixellated YouTube video from 300 miles away, the least we can do is listen to someone who was actually fucking there.

[BlackOrchid]

Re: The Madigan Incident

Skroo, actually the comment regarding women was based upon what you had previously posted. Although I agree with you, IN GENERAL, people in law enforcement (myself included), and journalism, should be well educated on the risk of going undercover and the perception should, thus, be different than the general population.

As a female, outside of my job, I do have a different perception on 'threats.' However, while doing my job, I know the risk and am willing to take those risk to complete the job/mission.

Yes, women do have a different perspective in society. This particular case, however, is far from that marginalized precept.

... as for the rest; don't have proof/data. Just the basics on the publics' (the general population) idea of 'hackers.' When have you ever heard something positive in the media about 'hackers?'

And now, back to what Skroo was asking for: Facts of those who were there and/or actually have facts as to why SHE was there to begin with.

(you're right, the rest is philosophy but I felt the need to defend the motives of defcon attendees involved) I'm sick that way! heh

[0x58]

Re: The Madigan Incident

One thing I don't think she researched to well before she came is who she was dealing with. Do you think she would have done it if she knew ahead of time that people at DefCon have resources, know how to get information, and are in general well connected?

For example, all her information was posted on Digg, and several other websites. All her personal phone numbers, social security, credit card and other data has now been leaked. Ethical, probably not, justice, maybe.

I generally make it a rule that I don't fuck with people that are smarter than I am. In this case she should have known that hackers are smart people, when gathered in groups even smarter, especially around peers. Don't fuck with people smarter than you.

[KinoEye]

Re: The Madigan Incident

One thing I don't think she researched to well before she came is who she was dealing with. Do you think she would have done it if she knew ahead of time that people at DefCon have resources, know how to get information, and are in general well connected?

<sarcasm>Research? You don't actually expect the likes of Dateline to do actual research?</sarcasm>

In her case I would be highly impressed if any research was done beyond hitting the main defcon site, looking at some photos of past cons and perhaps perusing this very forum.

It's pretty clear to me she had no idea who/what she was dealing with given the manner in which she exited the con.

[Zuggy]

Re: The Madigan Incident

In her case I would be highly impressed if any research was done beyond hitting the main defcon site, looking at some photos of past cons and perhaps perusing this very forum.

It's pretty clear to me she had no idea who/what she was dealing with given the manner in which she exited the con.

Her research probably didn't reveal that not only are you dealing with some of the smartest people on Earth at Defcon, but a unique breed of smart people. I seriously doubt that if were to go to an anthropology conference, or something closer to our professions like an engineering conference would you find the wide variety of people you find at Defcon.

The point is, the one she couldn't seem to grasp, when you come to Defcon you come as you are. Everyone at Defcon respects you for who you are, not who you pretend to be.

[skroo]

Re: The Madigan Incident

Skroo, actually the comment regarding women was based upon what you had previously posted. Although I agree with you, IN GENERAL, people in law enforcement (myself included), and journalism, should be well educated on the risk of going undercover and the perception should, thus, be different than the general population.

I think we're saying the same thing in different ways here - my comment was very much a generalisation, and deliberately so. Definitely agreed regarding perception while in an undercover capacity, however.

... as for the rest; don't have proof/data. Just the basics on the publics' (the general population) idea of 'hackers.' When have you ever heard something positive in the media about 'hackers?'

While it's more the exception than the rule, some of us locally have been interviewed for various news pieces on hacking-related stuff, and are tapped for background info or technical review by some of the local news outlets from time to time. In general, however, I've noticed that the usual 'hackers are bad' hype has died down somewhat and is swinging more towards using correct terms to describe the subjects of the articles: phrases like 'identity thief' and 'computer criminal' are being used less-interchangeably with the term 'hacker'. Granted, there's still a long way to go. But the improvement does seem to be there.

And now, back to what Skroo was asking for: Facts of those who were there and/or actually have facts as to why SHE was there to begin with.

Speaking of which... There's a set of photos I'd like to draw folks' attention to here. Specifically, I'd like people to pay attention to the size and composition of the 'mob'. Looking at this set, there are maybe 30 people there - at least four of them that I can see are goons (and I know that there was at least one more off-camera), and a good chunk of the people videotaping and/or taking her photograph are wearing press badges. She was not in any physical danger (in fact, she was probably in the single safest place she could be at that particular moment), and her facial expressions bear this out. Hell, she even had time to look over her shoulder before backing out of her parking space, and from what I recall of the video she drove out quite normally. Someone in fear of their life would not waste time with driving etiquette; hell, I'd be flooring it and aiming for anyone that got in my way if I were in physical danger.

[Zuggy]

Re: The Madigan Incident

Looking at the pictures she looked stressed. I have a feeling she was worried more about her career then her safety, because regardless of the circumstances that outed her (friendly dateline mole) she was given the opportunity to go undercover and blew it. I can imagine the level of trust that goes into being sent undercover and if you blow it the sort of aftermath that ensues.

[xwred1]

Re: The Madigan Incident

I just had the thought, can they still make a show about this? Might she have enough footage to show some interviews and then show how Dateline was run out by a "mob" later? Put in the obligatory clip of a van blowing up.

[J3di]

Re: The Madigan Incident

I just had the thought, can they still make a show about this? Might she have enough footage to show some interviews and then show how Dateline was run out by a "mob" later? Put in the obligatory clip of a van blowing up.

I was wondering if they were going to make any type of comment or statement on this at all. They've already been receiving a lot of bad press over the predator show. For them to try and spin this any other way than as a screwup on their part would ruin any creditability they may have left.

[BlackOrchid]

Re: The Madigan Incident

I watched dateline tonight. (with randomness of attention), and there is nothing. I don't expect this will be on a national show as it was already aired online enough to humiliate the show further.

I'm betting dateline is saying, "ignore this and it will go away." UUUMMMM again, they didn't do their research! They should learn that it will be talked about for YEARS.

Skroo, from my limited sources, I was told the story was suppose to be about feds who hire civilian hackers. I still don't have any evidence to this report so it's just hearsay for me.

[xwred1]

Re: The Madigan Incident

Well, I bet if everything had gone well for them at Defcon, it'd still be a few weeks for them to edit the footage and make a show about it.

[xor]

Re: The Madigan Incident

If she when found out just stayed there and owned up to it, it would almost be a none issue. But when you run, guess what people will chase you as it makes you look even more guilty and stupid.

She left there like people where going to tar and feather her. What's the worst that could have happened to her other than a humbling experience; and possibly her identity stolen, her credit ruined, her driver's license and registration revoked, and her utilities turned off :). Hackers are a peaceful group of people. If you are standing there with egg on your face, the best thing to do is just laugh. I believe even the worst situations can be turned around in to positive ones.

So instead of a negative story about hackers she could have turned it into a positive one. Then again that’s the trouble with a lot of the mainstream media, they are only interested in re-enforcing negative images.

xor

[bloofar]

Re: The Madigan Incident

Speaking of which... There's a set of photos I'd like to draw folks' attention to here.

You're right; she does look a lot more collected in the photos than she does in the video. She looks more like she's thinking "fuckfuckfuckFUCK" in the pics. I don't think she looks scared for her life tho. On the other hand, I wouldn't like to have that many highly intelligent people pissed/bemused at me. The only difference between a crowd and a riot is the proper motivation.

If she when found out just stayed there and owned up to it, it would almost be a none issue. But when you run, guess what people will chase you as it makes you look even more guilty and stupid.

About the equivalent of yelling "FUCK ITS THE COPS!" when LEOs unexpectedly knock on your door (had a roommate who did that once... idiot).

I just had the thought, can they still make a show about this? Might she have enough footage to show some interviews and then show how Dateline was run out by a "mob" later? Put in the obligatory clip of a van blowing up.

Maybe. I've seen crappy segments put together with less video. No telling exactly how much she got (unless I missed a description of that). Wild speculation + stock footage + still shots + a few low-quality live clips = sensationalist article.