The word "Hacker"

[nulltone]

I don't know, maybe its just me, but when I hear this word, I cringe.

What do you guys think about the word hacker. Whenever I hear it I get mad at whoever said it, because usually it was a kid at school saying "Do you know how to Hack. Can you teach me your mad skills?"

Shit like that, drives me nuts! So, what do you think about the Word Hacker?

[hdra]

It's just a word, but i see what you mean. It has a distinctly negative connotation in society, and although it doesnt make me cringe, being labeled as a 'hacker' doesnt seem to be conducive to success.

[nulltone]

I sortof over-reacted here, and I think everyone else is too afraid to reply ; )

I just dont like the way the media distorts the word.

[gemikit]

I think the word has been used so much that it really doesn't define the people that are called it.

Most people hear "hacker" and think either internet prankster or some kind of criminal.

But by getting into all of this, very recently myself, I have learned that the people who are termed "hackers" aren't necessarily either.

[nulltone]

But see, its getting worse now.
At first, it was just Hacker. Nows it CyberTerrorist. Damn the Media!

[DeN]

Just wait till they need us to run everything.
Then we'll see what connotation hacker has.
(...)


[list=1]
Funny stuff
funnier stuff
funniest stuff
funist stuff
[/list=1]

=]
:)
(:
[=

[simon]

Good call heh.

[omega884]

Yeah the media uses the word wrong, but I don't think there's anything we can do about it. Besides, it's not half as bad as you think. Since the official definition of hacker is something along the lines of "an advanced computer user", you can call yourself a hacker and since everyone else assumes that it means you are a vicious cracker, you get a lot of respect really quick from people who don't know better. And respect is a very good thing

[DeN]

Used to be that just knowing a bit about computers meant you could automatically e-rob banks, change grades, or whatever.

You could be pure as driven snow.... and suspect.

It was kinda kewl tho... :)

___
'Bleaaargh - see? Sprouts.' - Ron

[omega884]

Yeah way back when, but that was when knowing anythign about computers ment knowing at least some code, and some cracking skills.

[converge]

just about as useless as "terrorism" to me.. overused.. too many people bragging about being 1337 that are just idiots... the word's been taken out of context by people that have no clue; very much media and mpaa

[DeN]

Hi, I'm The DeN: the biggest, baddest, best. goodest too.

Hi, i'm DeN.

Hi! (or hi.)

Eh, that made sense.

-ps some of us* like the majority to be non-clued.


* concious-is'

[converge]

hehe true true... I guess I'm just getting a little burnt on having to deal with the people that don't have a clue; especially the ones making decisions in ignorance that directly effect me...

[DeN]

Seems' like everyone decisions effect me. What gives? Neh? How come I can't live in a vaccuume? And how come I can spell come two different ways (cum) but can't spell vacuume? ;)

[Xp0nential]

Well hacker is more to me of a talented programmer in a way.
Cause I really think those are the people who truely understand how things work.
of course there is a side of hacking that doesn't require that much deep knowledge.
But still that's what I mostly believe true hackers stand for.

hail assembly! heh
:)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Everything that's countable doesn't necessarily count. What counts isn't necessarily countable"
Albert Einstein

[blackwave]

Here is an example of how the media misuses the word "hacker" only to get people to read their filth...
http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=489
I highlighted the usage of the word hack, and terror, and noticed that on this report there are the exact same amount (18) references of each... coincidence?

Personally I have always perferred the terms, Attacker, Defender... when talking to persona-non-technica only to not assist in painting a bad picture that a 'hacker' is always malevolent.

I also have a problem with those labels such as:
black hat,
gray hat,
white hat...

To me they are all overused buzzwords... this would again be best defined as measuring skills in attacking or defending... If you need to use it to get a job, fine, jump at the opportunity, but don't put in on your biz card, or mention it to everyone you see...

[astcell]

Hacker = good.

Cracker = bad.

The hackers need a coupe, catch enough bad guys to get some good press. The buzzwords run the show because the average person is too ignorant to understand what we do in their lifetime.

I like TechnoWeenie on TW's business card, that's hilarious.

[Fused]

I don't know, maybe its just me, but when I hear this word, I cringe.

damn straight man. everyone knows in my town thanks to my mom and stuff. well i am at school and people are like can u teach me and stuff and i say nope. and this dude named tim was walkin around school like just randomly infecting shit and i was gettin introuble for it. i swear i was about to kill him. and he is like o i am a black hat and shit. when i told him the Hats and shit are lame in a way and that he should not be tellin people that he is a mad 1337 mofo and shit he gets all pissed to this day he still thinks he has skills. Fucken lamer

[blackwave]

Originally posted by Fused

and this dude named tim was walkin around school like just randomly infecting shit and i was gettin introuble for it.

Kiddies like that deserve what they get, also since this guy is so high profile it gives the wise an opportunity to work under this umbrella... and if something happens they most likely would question this guy first. Staying in the background is often the smartest... remember the truly elite never get caught... and then there is everyone else. ;)

[0ptik0n]

::Message from 0ptik0n::

I've said it before and I'll say it again...


if you call a computer thief or computer vandal a hacker, it's like calling a car thief a mechanic... it just doesn't make sense.





hmmm I wonder how quickly the media would be slaped if they said "and in other news a string of roberies plague local parking lots as a group of unknown mechanics steal countless cars.. Police are still baffeled by the mechanics methods 'I guess we just don't have their leet skillz' said one officer."

::guess what, you're outta time::

[blackwave]

Originally posted by 0ptik0n
if you call a computer thief or computer vandal a hacker, it's like calling a car thief a mechanic... it just doesn't make sense.


of course it doesn't make sense... look at the trouble that some are causing with blanket generalizations for wardrivers...

http://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=542

[TheWatcher]

Hacker is a self-taught skills. he/she always think out of the box, he/she never be contented to what is presented, exploration and bring out the best possible result.

These folks (real hackers) are talented system admin, security professionals, students, researchers, programmers and other related IT. They can protect, advance and help secure your environment.

Blackhat, whitehat, grayhat and other colors are created as additional marketing approach to sell a products or services. Some folks said blackhat is the dark side of IT and whitehat is the opposite. Grayhat and other color hat is just another joke.

Though the definition of blackhat and whitehat seem to have a clear direction but not on their services/products or website For example, blackhat.com offers training in security, blackhat.net provides ISP hosting services, blackhat.org is a personal site, blackhat.info a defacement assessment project to provide security recommendation based on actual incident.

While whitehat.com is a direct marketing, whitehat.net is another personal site, whitehat.org is for ethical hacking, whitehats.com is a security site that provides advisory, vuln and other security related services.

Bottom line, these blackhat, whitehat, etc are just another terminology created to easily signify a subject. And hackers will always be there good or bad ....

Just a thought.

[TheWatcher]

Originally posted by blackwave


Kiddies like that deserve what they get, also since this guy is so high profile it gives the wise an opportunity to work under this umbrella... and if something happens they most likely would question this guy first. Staying in the background is often the smartest... remember the truly elite never get caught... and then there is everyone else. ;)

I totally agree...

[converge]

Actually, I can think of quite a few that I would consider 1337 that have been caught. Of course, some of them don't expect to spend years in solitairy confinement without trial...

Nor do I accept the whole propoganda of the hacker/cracker complex. Serioulsy... it's rather childish. Changing the name you force people to respond with by chosing another rhyming word will not change public perception. eesh. If there is to be a line drawn, there are hackers that will not cross the line (whitehats), those that will (blackhats) and all the shades in between that make up the hacker culture regarding the unfettered proliferation of information and information freedom. Then there are just plain criminals and idoits that just don't deserve to be part of the hacker grouping, but will be included because the remainder of the populous is rather ignorant of the situation to begin with...

[zero]

Originally posted by TheWatcher
Hacker is a self-taught skills. he/she always think out of the box, he/she never be contented to what is presented, exploration and bring out the best possible result.



Hacker is just a label, nothing more. It has no hard and fast meaning. Look at the English dictionary. New editions come out every few years, not just because there's new words, but also because definitions change.

The public et al has a perception of what a hacker is. The press and popular media have reinforced this image. The reality things like DefCon/H2k2/ToorCon/etc do nothing to change that opinion, and generally build on it.

Further the Government, which sets most common people's perceptions, just adds to the definition.

As far as the best possible result, lets look at some of the icons in this area: Mitnick, MafiaBoy, hell Kevin Poulsen..... did they get well known for helping people shore up their security or for exploiting it? Adrian Lamo has done a fair amount to freely help companies improve security, but has almost no notoriety. Do the math....

[TheWatcher]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by TheWatcher
Hacker is a self-taught skills. he/she always think out of the box, he/she never be contented to what is presented, exploration and bring out the best possible result.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is just another opinion, nothing more ...

Regarding to the names you've mentioned, they have different cases and not comparable to what they accomplished. The media/publicity called them Hackers, in the public eyes this brings out different definitions (bad or good).

Cheers.

[converge]

I want to change public perception of "hacker" to that of a purple 3 legged duckbill platypus. Anyone with me? A little subliminal messaging, electroshock behavior reinforcement, and an outspken celebrity figure should just about do it....

[blackwave]

Originally posted by c0nv3r9
Anyone with me?

How about making the word "hacker" into a snack type of food,...

"hey someone pass me that bag of hackers

"mmmm, mmmm, mmmm, I love hackers, and kool-aid"

[TheWatcher]

Originally posted by blackwave


How about making the word "hacker" into a snack type of food,...

"hey someone pass me that bag of hackers

"mmmm, mmmm, mmmm, I love hackers, and kool-aid"



There you go ...

c0nv3r9,
where I can get application for blackwave inc? :D

Regards.

[0ptik0n]

well accroding to ESR's Jargon File (http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/jargon/html/)

it defines hacker as ....

"Hacker /n./1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. 2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming. 3. A person capable of appreciating hack value. 4. A person who is good at programming quickly. 5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does work using it or on it; as in `a Unix hacker'. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who fit them congregate.) 6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might be an astronomy hacker, for example. 7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations. "


although I do love the food idea....


HACKERS!! now with more vitamin C!!! (c is for cookies, that's secure enough for me...)

[blackwave]

Originally posted by 0ptik0n
well accroding to ESR's Jargon File

Funny that only we know anything about the Jargon File. Everyone else seems to be reading the Media's File.

[0ptik0n]

Pfffft, like I'm gonna belive a company that gets paid to show me comercials :P


stupid sheep.

[converge]

Originally posted by TheWatcher
where I can get application for blackwave inc? :D

I'm not sure if you'll be able to find one. It took me a couple weeks of searching through google, and there was only one left in the quanitity field. I still haven't heard back, so I'm starting to get skeptical..... o, well... the vendor only charged $50

[blackwave]

Originally posted by c0nv3r9
I'm not sure if you'll be able to find one. It took me a couple weeks of searching through google, and there was only one left in the quanitity field. I still haven't heard back, so I'm starting to get skeptical..... o, well... the vendor only charged $50

Hahaha, nice status: Blackwave, Inc. Applicant.

Damn they charged me 100$USD, and its my name! :( I feel so used. Someone put me in the hamper.

[TheWatcher]

Man, that's expensive than getting my way to DEFCON X ...

[astcell]

I was asked at a dinner party last week, "Oh are you a hacker?" I had no idea what to say. These are laymen, are they asking me if I am a criminal? Sometimes it's hard to guess what they are thinking.

[blackwave]

Originally posted by astcell
I was asked at a dinner party last week, "Oh are you a hacker?" I had no idea what to say. These are laymen, are they asking me if I am a criminal? Sometimes it's hard to guess what they are thinking.

I usually ask what they mean by hacker... if they are the typical sheep and ask if I can read someone's email I say 'of course', and I can also read their email... then of course they either shut up or try to bribe me into checking their spouse's email because they think they are cheating via aol, or some bullshit like that... sometimes the offers are really good... the lame thing is they could have easily installed a program geared for their needs had they used google... oh well.

[nawcom]

This subject reminds me of the assholes out there that define themselves as "hackers" yet the only language they know is American Slang. One day I was coding on my laptop up in the sound booth where I work. A girl who works there also had her boyfriend with her, and he was talking about being a "hacker" and "hacking" someones computer.

With what you ask?

Yep. You guessed it. SubSeven. Wupdee shit.

After a while he came over and looked to see what I was doing. He was a little puzzled on what I was coding and was a little lost that I had WindowMaker up. And do you know the quote he said to me?

....

"So what game are you playing?"

Asshole. This shows you what society defines hackers as. They are people who break laws. And for the assholes out there - its just an attempt to be "cool."

I believe that just because of the knowledge I have about computers and there weaknesses doesn't mean I need to define myself as a hacker. It is very unfortunate that the press and the government had to stereotype hackers as "evil" and "wrong" hence putting masks on me and everyone else out there in the hacker community.

[TheWatcher]

Originally posted by nawcom
This subject reminds me of the assholes out there that define themselves as "hackers" yet the only language they know is American Slang. One day I was coding on my laptop up in the sound booth where I work. A girl who works there also had her boyfriend with her, and he was talking about being a "hacker" and "hacking" someones computer.

With what you ask?

Yep. You guessed it. SubSeven. Wupdee shit.

After a while he came over and looked to see what I was doing. He was a little puzzled on what I was coding and was a little lost that I had WindowMaker up. And do you know the quote he said to me?

....

"So what game are you playing?"

Asshole. This shows you what society defines hackers as. They are people who break laws. And for the assholes out there - its just an attempt to be "cool."

I believe that just because of the knowledge I have about computers and there weaknesses doesn't mean I need to define myself as a hacker. It is very unfortunate that the press and the government had to stereotype hackers as "evil" and "wrong" hence putting masks on me and everyone else out there in the hacker community.

Don't be surprise, that's happen all the time...

[ck3k]

the word hacker has morphed from a simple term to describe a advanced computer user to a term that when most hear it, pheer that there computers will be "blown up". The media also considers every one a hacker......when the local news talked about piracy it called the people that where distributing the programs hackers. Has anyone ever been to the "hackers lounge" on yahoo chat......that is where people get the misconceptions from....the room is full of wannabes that say they have hacked hundreds of msn mailboxs......

anyways see ya all at defcon x

ck3k

[astcell]

About 80% of the "hackers" I have met are wannabees. I mean they are not even good enough to be SK's. Now I do not expect to run into complete Einsteins every day, but when you find out you walked into Beavis and Butthead Central, it sux. That's one reason I like the con, and one reason hangin' with Blackwave has been fun so far.

[blackwave]

Originally posted by astcell
and one reason hangin' with Blackwave has been fun so far.

<beavis laugh>... huh uh huh huh... wait till we start blowing up shit...</beavis laugh> ;)

[TheWatcher]

Originally posted by ck3k
the word hacker has morphed from a simple term to describe a advanced computer user to a term that when most hear it, pheer that there computers will be "blown up". The media also considers every one a hacker......when the local news talked about piracy it called the people that where distributing the programs hackers. Has anyone ever been to the "hackers lounge" on yahoo chat......that is where people get the misconceptions from....the room is full of wannabes that say they have hacked hundreds of msn mailboxs......

anyways see ya all at defcon x

ck3k

I visited once the yahoo hacker lounge, "most" of them are wannabe that don't want to search.

A "genuine" hacker don't introduce themselves ... it's always waiting for the right time and right place ...

[ck3k]

last time i checked a "hack" was a guy that drove taxis

And i just cant wait to see blackwave and astcell blow some shit up. :D

peace

ck3k

[blackwave]

Originally posted by ck3k
And i just cant wait to see blackwave and astcell blow some shit up.

Oh yeah... it is gonna be good... ;)

[Drake]

Originally posted by blackwave

I usually ask what they mean by hacker...

That's pretty much what I do. I just shrug and say 'that depends on how you define 'hacker' '. For those smart enough to ask how I define the word, I am more than happy to explain. For the sheep who ask if can break into other peoples computers, I usually just say 'I guess not'. That's a white lie of a sort. I probably do have the skills to break into some of the completely unsecured systems around, but (believe it or not) I have never done so.

[Neural]

I skipped most of the replies to this thread because it's late and I wanted to write down what the word means to me.

I fell into "the scene" a little late. By 1987 the scene was in full swing and I was just another newbie then compared to those who were around in 82-84 and earlier. Back then being a hacker or a phreaker was doing illegal stuff. Illegal access of a computing device. I don't care if you were a 'good' hacker and applied security patches, closed holes, etc. You didn't belong on that system and you were not authorize to alter that system in any way, even to improve it.

Same went with all the old school phone phreaks would find busted trunks and call in posing as an employee to report the problem so it could be fixed. They were still illegally accessing the phone network.

The same thing applies today. I don't care if you only the best intentions. Illegally accessing a computer is a crime. Probing a system should be a crime. If you pulled into your driveway and see a person you don't know, walk up your drive way to your front door, reach down for the door knob, and give the knob a twist, that in itself may not actually be a crime but if I saw someone do that I'd pound the shit out of them. It might be consider intent to commit a crime, even if it's trespass. I'm not sure though.

I do agree that the media adds their own layer of hype to the word hacker as if every one of them were breaking into banks electronically and stealing YOUR money. In some cases this is actually true, in other cases its not.

But to summarize my opinion, I don't see a problem with the word hacker having an illegal stigma to it. Even if non-consentual probing of a network was illegal, it doesn't mean that would stop me from doing it. Riding the x.25 networks for free was illegal and many of us did it anyways. So if any aspect of what you're doing is technical and illegal, I don't have a problem being lumped in with "hackers".

There are a various kinds of "hackers". Malicious ones rm'ing systems, defacing websites, using denial of service against targets. There's also hackers like mrmojo of dis.org who was kind enough to do a 'security assessment' of my linux box, initially without consent, but he did inform me of things that needed to be looked at, and then asked if he should finish the job rooting my box. If I was normal joe blow clueless person I would have been freaked out that someone did that, but being who I am, I understood the mentality behind it and didn't have a problem with it at all.

Hell, there are "security consultants" who find vulnerabilities, write up an advisory, a white paper, and then ultimately a proof of concept script which gets released into the wild where it falls into the hands of malicious people who use what originally was a proof of concept script, and turn it into the next code red virus.

Does this improve network security? Yes, in the long run, after numerious machines get rooted to 'prove a concept'. I'm not saying I don't condone full disclosure. I believe it's helps technology grow. But there will always be a downside to it that cannot be avoided.

I think the main debate about the word 'hacker' from within the community is the weight in which the word should have when it comes to skill. Should a 'newbie' who downloads back orfice or netbus or one of the various distributed denial of service programs, and goes around using someone elses work to cause trouble, be considered a hacker. Many old school people say no. In most cases I would say no too, but then I got to thinking. I used to use someone elses 950 scanner to scan for 950 codes to make free long distance calls. I used someone elses wardialer to scan my local area for computers with modems hook to them. Many of the old school people have done that as well. I didn't write nuke.c to dump people off irc but I used that countless times, and so have many of you. Of course these programs encouraged me to write my own scripts and tools which was a fundamental building block in my exploration of computers, networks and the flaws in their security, so I can't dismiss these 'newbies' as not being hackers, as long as it leads to something more than just using other people's work.

And what about those whose "hacking career" never grow up beyond back orfice and netbus? They're just wannabe's, plain and simple. They're in it for the title and nothing more. These are the bulk of the people that do the most amount of abuse. They are nothing more than technological miscreants to the community. Web Vandals. To the press they are hackers. And maybe that's ok, because hackers actually do breaks laws, and it's really up to you to decide if this is the group you want to be lumped in with. The media can use terms like black hats, grey hats,and white hats, but they will never understand. Even with "high profile hackers" such as the l0pht crew, and Peter Shipley, who try and educate the media about what "real hackers" are all about, the media still doesn't and will not understand, because those people who are trying to educate the public have long since stopped being "hackers" in it's original sense from the 80's, and have crossed that line and have become "security consultants". The illegal aspect of what they do now is gone. Now they just provide a service after you've signed a consent form for penetration testing and pay them for their work when it's done. Sell outs? No. They need things like a place to live and food to eat like everyone else does. More power to them for doing what they love to do and getting paid good for it......Anyway..

Am I a hacker? Yes. I still cross that legal/illegal line from time to time. I may work as a network administrator. My job may be to make sure the network I admin is secure, but that's just my day job.

[TheWatcher]

That was a long explanation ... though you make sense ... see you tomorrow.