defcon shoot?

[noid]

Re: defcon shoot?

Ok, so here's some of the issues we have had in the past, along with some of our procedures.

The biggest issue is crowd control. You need enough RSO's to keep an eye on everyone, and for the RSO's to be able to communicate quickly and effectively.

For example, the last year we did it, the firing line was roughly 100 yards long. We called a cease fire at one point. Everyone was clear except for one person at the very far end of the range (and the RSO had their back to them) who had locked 'n loaded and was ready to go. I was about to let people go down range when I noticed this person setting up on target. I couldnt get a hold of the RSO standing right next to him because he didnt hear his radio. It took most of the line yelling at the two of them before the situation resolved itself.

Other issues we have had in the past largely relate to peoples attitudes. Some people seem to think they are a firearms expert and that the 4 rules of firearm safety apply to other people. I remember one year back when the shoot was only 30 or so people, we pulled everyone over for a range briefing and a gal walked up with a gun in each hand, finger on the triggers. CHS told her to immediately stop what she was doing and return to her vehicle and put her guns away. Her response was the classic 'but they arent loaded'. She became argumentative with us about it and she was ultimately told to leave.

Over the years the people I have had to toss off the line (and its only been a few) are people that are committing safety no-nos. Typically I approach them in a relaxed manner and explain to them what I see them doing and what they need to be doing. Coming over as an authoritarian asshole will only guarantee a confrontation, and c'mon folks we're all armed. If the person gives me attitude, the get the 'come to Jesus' talk. If the attitude continues I let the other RSOs know whats going on and ask the person to leave. Sometimes its just a matter of bad habit. The person will be agreeable to me, but the second I turn my back they go back to what they are doing. I will warn them again, and let them know that they dont get a third warning. Sometimes I have to come back a third time. Thats when I ask them to leave.

Luckily we have never had any problems with alcohol or drugs, we have never had any problems with people becoming belligerent or dangerously aggressive. As most of us 'gun folk' know, most gun people are decent, reasonable folks.

In regards to range procedures heres a few things to touch on:

1. Start the day with a range briefing. Stress to these folks that the 4 rules of firearm safety are in play and that any violations will be addressed by the RSOs. Let the attendees know that if they see something that they think is unsafe, they can contact any RSO to deal with it. Also let attendees know that ANYONE can call a cease fire, especially if they think an accident is about to happen. Also explain how things work to the shooters:

a. No handling of firearms during a cease fire
b. No handling of firearms behind the shooting line
c. When transporting weapons to or from the line, they must be unloaded, actions open, and in their case.
d. Drawing from a holster is permitted while the shooter is shooting. No walking around with holstered weapons, loaded or otherwise*
e. Do not go down range unless the RSO has declared it 'cold'
f. Only shoot at range approved targets, and only whats out there. No shooting at birds or other wildlife, no shooting at range prohibited targets (some ranges dont allow glass targets such as bottles and in the southwest a lot of ranges dont allow steel targets as they can spark a fire)
g. When a cease fire is called, unload your firearms, open the actions or bolts (if, for example, its an AK style rifle without a bolt hold-open a spent piece of brass or shotgun hull can be used). After doing that, step behind a second line and REMAIN THERE until the range is cold, then they may proceed down range to check or change targets, also remind them of rule (a)

2. Explain that the Range Safety Officers have the final authority on the firing line and that everyone must abide by their decisions. Let them know that the RSOs will be firm but fair, and if a shooter feels that a RSO is being an authoritarian prick to let the Range Master (sometimes called the Chief RSO) know and he/she will deal with it. Also let them know that if a RSO brings something to their attention, to address the issue. Also, if a RSO asks them to leave the range to please do so without delay or incident. We can always discuss what happened later.

3. Talk to the RSOs. Let them know that its their job to be the eyes and ears of the Range Master. While working RSOs should refrain from shooting, engaging in long conversations, or helping people fix malfunctioning firearms. In the case of a malfunctioning firearm, they should call the Range Master over to have them clear the weapon (note: NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND). Distracted RSOs can be a big problem for everyone

As always remind people that they are their to have fun, shoot their guns, try new ones, and enjoy the comradere that is found amongst shooters. However, safety is the name of the game and those rules cannot be broken or it ruins it for everyone.

*Holsters prohibited from these types of events are shoulder holsters and small of the back 'Mexican carry' style holsters, as they require the shooter to break one of the 4 rules

[Fatal Grace]

Re: defcon shoot?

Sorry about not posting, I’ve just had a hellish weekend.

OK to answer a few things in one jumbled mess.

I’ve been lurking for a long time, and have gone to a few Cons.
I don’t thank any pictures of me exits, as I tend to stay away from that sort of thing. But, I have met a few of you, and a few of you’ve probably seen me around, I’m big, and hard to miss. In fact Deviant tried to have me take a picture of him last year, but due to the deadness of his camera’s batteries that couldn’t be managed.

As Haden has mentioned we’ve never met, but I’m not opposed to the idea, and would be happy to buy the man who’s bringing back the DC Shoot a beer.

Thursday morning is fine for me.

As I mentioned before I’m willing to serve as an RSO.

We can’t get a clear quote until we know the approximate number of people attending.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

actually deviant, now that i think about it you may be right plus with fewer people we would be able to have less people working and those of us that are workings as SO would be able to get in a bit more range time ourselves. i may just have to email DT and retract my request.

i don't want you to jump to any changes solely on my account. as i often say, i'm just a guy talking here.

on a plus side the less people we have the less it will cost for the range i believe. just a bit more per person.

do we have even rough estimates on costs yet?

thanks deviant( i think its more of your ideas that are influencing this than mine)

well, i'm happy to be as helpful as i can be. i just don't want you to think i'm pulling the reins from your hands, is all.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

actually deviant, now that i think about it you may be right plus with fewer people we would be able to have less people working and those of us that are workings as SO would be able to get in a bit more range time ourselves. i may just have to email DT and retract my request.

on a plus side the less people we have the less it will cost for the range i believe. just a bit more per person. thanks deviant( i think its more of your ideas that are influencing this than mine)

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

id like to do some advertising about 2 months from con when activity here in the forums booms. maybe in the future we can expand from the shoot to physical security and have safety demos and talks but this year its just the shoot and a quick brush up on safety.

I'm not trying to be outright contrarian or negative, but i don't know if i'm totally in accord with that notion. This is the first time in a while that people are trying to seriously resurrect this event. It would be a good idea to let it progress and grow slowly, a great deal by word of mouth in my opinion. I feel that the boom in forum views that accompanies DefCon's approach will be more than enough to get people interested... that plus our own conversations with friends who are attending con who are shooters.

That's just my thinking. If we start to mix in aspects of safety, instruction, etc. we get two crowds... veteran shooters and newbies who are interested in shooting. Don't get me wrong, i love the idea of bringing more firearms content to DefCon. Hell, i organized the first weaponry-related talk in quite a while least year and it went over really well.

But I think that the main, Desert Lake based, group shoot (taking place early on Thursday) should be a more tightly-controlled group. If people want to get introduced to firearms, maybe taking people in smaller groups to American Shooters or TheGunStore is the way to go, on other mornings during the week.

Just my $0.02

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

alright i get it now. thanks a lot cotman, ill email dark tangent as soon as i can because i do believe we will need the sub forum. i don't think we will need anything so far as space or a table but id like to do some advertising about 2 months from con when activity here in the forums booms. maybe in the future we can expand from the shoot to physical security and have safety demos and talks but this year its just the shoot and a quick brush up on safety.

As for speaking with noid id be more than happy to have him with us and anyone he thinks is reliable. Not to toot my own horn but my ultimate goal for the next 3 years at con is to become a goon just to help out with security. I currently work as an unarmed security guard and hope to get my armed certification by the new year. I'm also looking to spread out into the information security and network security fields when i get back into school.

Edit: messages sent to DT about getting listed as an official event and to noid, quiet wolf, and eehrwon to try to confirm their help.

[TheCotMan]

Re: defcon shoot?

no deviant i've never been, this will be my first year. was planing to make the trip last year but ran into some problems and couldn't make it.

As for the main contacts from the cot mans post, it looks like nither one of us will be able to run the show as i know i haven't met yet a single mod admin or goon. cant say for fatal grace either but he looks new to the game as well. seems the only way to do it would be to get the previous organizer and getting it officaly handed off to me and fatal and hope cot approves.

but on another note Deviant i know your gonna be busy but would you mind helping out more like you have already in this thread? Like hammering down details and such?

I'm not the one that would approve of this as a contest/event. That would be DT. (Dark Tanget/Jeff Moss.) Once he approves, then my path is clear. :-)

Please don't let status as a forum leader/organizer stop you. Send email to DT and ask to get this listed as an official or unofficial event for Defcon 16. Once it is listed on the main page for Defcon 16, we can make a subforum here for it.

Odds are very good that noid or someone like him would make it out to your first event, and get to know you and maybe willing to vouch for you as a forum leader/organizer for a new Defcon Shoot subforum. The original Defcon shoot was run by people that were trusted to put people's safety first, and from the reports, they did well with this objective. It was mostly an unofficial event, but was often linked from its defcon page.

A good example of this is the aCTF. They didn't have any forum Leaders/Organizers the first year they had a subforum here, but after we could see they weren't pretending to host a contest/event, and that they were not disorganized, the following year we added some users here as Forum Leaders/Organizers for their subforum here.

So, I'd suggest moving forward with your plans. Make a request for this to be an official or unofficial defcon event, and get it linked from the main page.

Since you're new to this, here are some other hints...
1) Just because you've got the OK to run a contest or event doesn't mean that you have access to the resources you need.
Do you plan to have a table in the contest/event room to show off anything related to this? A signup list? Some collection of money to pre-pay for range fees? If you will need such resources, you'll need to pay attention to a request for such items from Russ.
Will you want to setup any kind of vendor table? Will you be selling anything related to this? Then you'll want to talk to Chris too.
What about a skybox? (Doesn't sound like you would be needing one, but if you did...) You would want to let Grifter (or the person handling these) know about your desire.
You want to be linked from the main page? Maybe Neil, or DT, or Black Beetle will call for a short description of your event.
Will you need a subforum for this? If so, once it is listed on the main Defcon page, or you get a nod from DT, let me know so I can confirm, and then make the subforum. :-)
Lastly, will you want your event mentioned in the program? Myabe BlackBeetle, or someone else will publish a request for information.

For each area that you might need resources, wait for them to request the information, or ask for submission, and then contact the respective people involved and make it easy for them to get their job done -- They will appreciate it. :-) (It is better to contact them when they ask for it, not before.)

2) The more volunteers you can get involved with you on this, the easier it can be for you. However, with something like a Defcon Shoot, I would strongly suggest you talk to Noid and see if you can get him to help you. He will not only be able to provide great advice, but also help you by possibly vouching for other people he has prior experience with, at previous events as safe and knowledgeable people. (One bad ROI/volunteer can easily cause problems.)

3) Organize it all early, and be passionate about the contests/event. When you are excited and are happy with the work you do, other people want to share your happiness, and you can attract some talented people willing to volunteer and play with you. Look at Lost's mystery Contest and the aCTF. These are contests run by people that really enjoy these, and the results are obvious.

4) Share the load. Delegate, delegate, delegate. Defcon is not fun if you are only working like a dog. (Praise here for the Goons that actually work during defcon so the rest of us can have fun.) Share the load, and share the credit with the people that are helping you.

If it goes well this year, and people meet and vouch for you, odds are good for you to be a forum leader/organizer for the subforum after defcon, and if you host it again next year, then next year without any need for review. (Once people have been made Forum leaders/organizers, I/we just carry them over to the next year.)

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

no deviant i've never been, this will be my first year. was planing to make the trip last year but ran into some problems and couldn't make it.

As for the main contacts from the cot mans post, it looks like nither one of us will be able to run the show as i know i haven't met yet a single mod admin or goon. cant say for fatal grace either but he looks new to the game as well. seems the only way to do it would be to get the previous organizer and getting it officaly handed off to me and fatal and hope cot approves.

but on another note Deviant i know your gonna be busy but would you mind helping out more like you have already in this thread? Like hammering down details and such?

[TheCotMan]

Re: defcon shoot?

Get a nod from DT as an official or unofficial event linked from the main site, and I'll make a subforum for it.

There are no event subforum moderators, but we do create leaders/organizers for some of the contest/event subforums when we have a good idea the users won't cause problems.

(Moderators moderate and enforce rules as well as ban people. Forum Leaders/organizers are given several extra controls to help them promote their event like set/unset stickies, and other thread maintenance to organize the subforum for their contest/event. I don't want any leader/organizer to have to play the bad guy and act as a polarizing figure for people in this community. Let them be mad at me or other mods. I can act as a hall monitor as ask people for their hall pass. :-)

If you are an official defcon goon, the Leader/Organizer status for a contest/event doesn't take long, but if no mod, admin, goon, etc can vouch for you, then it is unlikely to get that status.

It works like this:
A mod, admin, etc vouches for someone as someone that won't cause problems.
Mods are given a chance to comment.
Any mod can nix the nomination with a single veto.

I believe that everyone that is and has been a forum leader/organizer has met a goon, mod, admin, etc that vouched for them.

If a contest was run a previous year as an official/unofficial event/contest, then I've no problem making subforums for them when the previous year's leader/organizer says they will be doing it again -- even if it is not yet linked from the main page.

If a contest has changed hands, and the old organizer has let me know who they gave it to, and that new person says they will be running is again that year, then I'll also make a subforum for it.

However, when a contest is new, and has no official mention on the main site, and is not being run by a goon, mod, admin, etc, then I defer to the main web page for that year's defcon or a comment from DT, Russ, Grifter (etc) that the contest/event will be happening.

HTH. (Hope this helps.) If you have more questions, let me know.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

first things 1st: no i don't know fatal grace as of yet.

have i met either of you before? not to sound like a person chatting on AOL, but are there photos of either of you anywhere? i don't know whether i've seen you around at con or not.

2nd: i believe that we are both the main contacts

k, if cotman gives this event its own sub-forum i suppose you'll each have mod rights in there.

3rd: it will be me and fatal, sounds like deviant, hopefully noid, cotman, quiet wolf, and any other goons that are interested and aren't busy elsewhere

well, goon availability has historically been the problem and was one of the main reasons that the shoot ended last time. i can say that almost certainly noid may be busy with other affairs. given that it's really early, however (and if he is convinced that we have our shit together and have only good people coming) perhaps he may decide to appear. i spoke with CotMan today and it's not likely he will be around, i believe.

haven't met quiet wolf, but he certainly looks very interested. erehwon also is the type who would be up for something, i suspect. but maybe more as a participant than as staff... i don't want to speak for anyone else in terms of time spent working and off the trigger.

i think its set then for Thursday the 7th. I'd really like to get started when they open so i think we should gather around 6:00 to 6:15 and be on the road by 6:20. We shoot for 3hours and clean up for half an hour at 10:00. that way any who are interested can go to the damn(i'm down to go, never been) and well all be back by 12-1pm.

nice. i'm certainly up for that schedule since it allows us to possibly see the dam as well. (note - we should look into rules relating to weapons in parked vehicles there as well as some approximation of how long the tours take and if they are run on some sort of schedule)

The SOs would have 1/2 hour rotating shifts and ill do 2 shifts. I would like to have Deviant come up with the firing line control.

i'm also certainly happy to do two or three shifts. as for firing control... it's not too sophisticated. all you need is an air horn or loud whistle and some flag systtem (either rope or actual flags, depending on the size of the range, etc.) that will become clearer when we get a fix on how many people are interested.

something else that will become an issue eventually will be planning of transportation. i'm not a vegas local, but this year i may actually get a rental car for some portion of my time out there. the day or so in between Black Hat and DefCon just involves so much running around that it may make sense.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

first things 1st: no i don't know fatal grace as of yet.
2nd: i believe that we are both the main contacts
3rd: it will be me and fatal, sounds like deviant, hopefully noid, cotman, quiet wolf, and any
other goons that are interested and aren't busy elsewhere

i think its set then for Thursday the 7th. I'd really like to get started when they open so i think we should gather around 6:00 to 6:15 and be on the road by 6:20. We shoot for 3hours and clean up for half an hour at 10:00. that way any who are interested can go to the damn(i'm down to go, never been) and well all be back by 12-1pm.

The Sos would have 1/2 hour rotating shifts and ill do 2 shifts. I would like to have Deviant come up with the firing line control. No matter how many we have show there will be at least 2 SOs on duty at all times. Strict adherence to the Four Rules by all and well have a great day.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

just hafta get me one a them there boonie hats.

We should really start to clarify who is the official person or persons who are in charge of this event and whom they would like to have as working as safety staff. Questions...

1. Haden / Fatal Grace... you both appear to be the key players attempting to resurrect this event. Do you know each other? (I ask because it looks like Haden was the initial starter but Fatal jumped right on board quickly.) Would you be running it together and both be the main contacts? Or is Haden more primary in that regard?

2. Would either of you be serving as Range Safety Officers in some capacity for the event?

3. How many other people besides me have expressed an interest in acting as safety officers?

i think thursday morning before the tbbq would be best. start at ass crack of dawn and finish up at 10:30-11:00 to give about an hour for field striping and cleaning. then strait on to lunch at the tbbq then to the forum meet.

i'm starting to agree that Thursday AM could be better, if for the main reason that i'll be totally done with my stuff at Black Hat and it gives other people a better shot at being in town.

Let's try to hammer something of a schedule and logistic notion together. Desert Lake opens at 7 AM and is about 30 to 40 minutes outside the city. (Heh, i wasn't able to find a single bit of location info on their web site, but a nice lady on the phone gave me the run-down there) Here are a couple maps detailing things better..

Now, i'll be ther first to admit that a 7 AM rise seems like it will be pretty tough for me. Unless i totally sack out right after SushiCon the night before. (Which may make the most sense, particularly if people still do Quarks Bar on Tuesdays as per usual, i'll possibly not want to drink on wednesday.)

So we could rally and depart from the hotel as early as 6:00 - 6:30 or as late as 8:00 or so. What are people's thoughts there? How much will depend on the range and potential crowds? Those who are organizing with Desert Lake may want to ask if getting there earlier in the day makes life better for us. Heat is also a factor that we will have to contend with as the day moves on, btw.

So... how much time did people think about spending there? Personally, I don't ever really shoot for more than two hours or so. If i break it up a lot (say, if we had 30 minute staff shifts and i was on half the time and shooting/socializing half the time) then i could almost see a three hour run time there, but that's just me. What are others' thoughts? (I'm just a guy talking here, btw... i don't want to be thought of at all as someone who is taking over this event with all his own ideas. I'm just looking to have a good time and lend a hand in any way that I can. Absolutely zero offense taken if someone tells me here or in a PM to back off.)

An interesting other note if you look at those maps above... if you travel just about 10 more miles on 93 past the turning for 95 south (at the point where 93 crosses the NV/AZ border) is the Hoover Dam. I've never been there, but would be totally be up for seeing that, too, if there were others who are interested. Now, that starts to get into not just scheduling issues but also "transport of weapons into a National Park" issues, i think. (I haven't done any reading there at all, don't know what Hoover Dam's status is. The green on the maps above is "Lake Meade National Recreation Area" technically)

So yeah... anything that gets us wrapped up on the firing line maybe by noon would get my vote. (That makes Hoover Dam seem less possible on the same morning, unless we break very early -- like 10:00 -- and some people head east to the water for an hour or two.) That way, we can do breakdown and cleaning (do they have comfortable, indoor space where you can do that there?) and get back to the hotel no later than one. I make my "Theme Ingredient" announcement for the Titanium Chef event at 15:00 at the hotel. Long as i'm back with plenty of time to spare there, i'll be fine.

[haden]

Re: defcon shoot?

these sound more than fare for the shoot. just hafta get me one a them there boonie hats.
on a serious note though i think thursday morning before the tbbq would be best. start at a** crack of dawn and finish up at 10:30-11:00 to give about an hour for field striping and cleaning. then strait on to lunch at the tbbq then to the forum meet.(for me atleast but i think since im helping out there to ill just make an anouncement.) unless we do hold them together like we are thinking.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

We've actually never had a problem with drunks on the line before.

noid, would you care to share any more info about any problems (small or large... my guess is most were small) that you did have at previous shoots? what sort of steps did you take or policies did you implement to handle them?

i've organized some group shoots in the past, but nothing more than ten people or so at a time. i'm sure that while the rules and operations we had in place were ok, they may need tweaking in a larger setting. here's the rundown of what we had...

1. at least one range officer on each end of the line - these folk were in charge of making sure that no parties crossed the line when it was hot, and they were primarily in charge of setting the flags for the line. a system we used was a long rope with many red ties affixed that could be hung from a pillar at each end. if the rope was suspended in the air, it was a cease-fire. if the rope was dropped to the ground, it was free-fire.

2. at least one range officer for every six to ten people on the line - the job of these folks was to enforce compliance with the cease-fires and oversee each participant, enforcing the other rules. (listed below)

3. strict adherence to the "four rules" - all uncased weapons would face downrange. weapons not in use would have their actions open and mags dropped. anyone seen pointing in an unsafe manner or loading a weapon away from the line would be taken to task. (we used to have a rule where persons with valid carry permits in whatever state we were in could have holstered weapons, including loaded ones, on their person even if they were off the line. is this a good idea/bad idea for the shoot?)

4. penalties - people doing anything unsafe but small (loading a weapon away from the line, poor discipline with where the muzzle was pointed, failure to clear and make safe during a cease-fire) would get one private warning, one public warning, and then for a third infraction be asked to step off the line. sometimes people would be invited to come back up and participate some more after a while (10 min or so) if they were truly apologetic and really seemed like they were trying to keep their act together. anyone with a bad attitude about rules and parties acting very improperly (not respecting a cease-fire, horseplay or pointing weapons intentionally, etc) could see themselves off the line without two warnings and could see that happen permanently. that never happened, incidentally.

5. cease-fire - anyone could ask for a cease-fire, and range officers were pretty good about calling one right away, particularly if the need was communicated with urgency. most people who just wanted to check targets would casually ask, "can i have a cease fire in a bit" and not get all frantic, waving an open palm horizontally to an RSO. cease-fires were announced with a loud whistle or a blast from an air horn on very large ranges. the rope would get hoisted and everyone (no matter what they were doing) would clear and make safe and step back from the line. the roving RSOs would walk their area of the line quickly to see that all weapons were not hot. people were permitted to do things like load mags (back away from the line) but not work with their weapons at all. when going hot, an announcement would be made, the end "line judges" (as we started calling them) would verify that no one was downrange and everyone was back behind the line, and they would drop the rope.

6. RSO gear - we typically just communicated by shouting on small setups and once we used simple FRS radios on a larger range. the two end RSOs had air horns (once it was just whistles on a small range) to announce cease-fires. Something else we started doing... all RSOs (line judges and rule enforcers) wore blaze-orange boonie hats. much like the goons' red shirts at DefCon, these became linked in people's minds with instant obedience and fair execution of the rules. it was also helpful when we had people rotating from shooting to working... whether or not you'd get approached with a request, etc. depended not on who you were but what hat you had on.

i may be missing some things... just working from memory. what are people's thoughts here?

/me looks in noid's direction in particular.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: defcon shoot?

next thing is we need to find a date for the shoot

How's wednesday morning? anything later than that and, i'm sad to say, most people are too into the swing of pre-defcon to get it together. There's a chance that thursday morning could work for some people, too, but it would have to absolutely wrap up by noon and lots of folks couldn't make an after-event out of it due to TBBQ pre-game (which for me and some others also includes Titanium Chef).

Unless, of course, we want to make TBBQ the unofficial after-party. That gives everyone time to break down and clean their hardware back in their rooms, etc. (or to stay there and do cleanup, if there are some public tables with some shade) Heh, as cool as it would be to strip down and be solventing and oiling Class-III gear in Sunset Park amid smoking meat, i think the cops would show up for sure on that one.