Ninja party is canceled this year

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Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I'm assuming some other groups/parties are going to run into this road block as well. Is it possible to circumvent this whole thing by getting multiple groups together and an area larger than the skybox being used? 15k is steep, even with 3 groups thats a chunk of change before other costs involved.

No idea how feasible this idea is, but Im sure people would be more than willing to pay a small cover.

I remember the bartenders who appeared, and I thought to myself I wonder if these guys are being paid? I was one of the many people who tossed money into a cup/bucket whatever it was on the counter. Now that I know where It went, I have a little more despise for the hotel than I already did.

[valkyrie]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Barkode --

I was never invited to your fine party, though I heard many good words about it. This is a travesty. Your alls party is a DefCon treat! How does this get fixed going forward? Or does it get fixed at all? Seems the folks in LV don't love us any more. OOOOO! I have an idea! Let's transplant Con to Tejas! It's hot, dry and there is a lake near by. Sounds like LV to me!

Regards,

valkyrie

[tendency]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

well. when i got the text messages last night i hoped it wasn't true.

no, no, no, no, no, no NO. godDAMNIT.

and here i'm coming back this year and everything. well hell. ninjakin, see you all soon, party or no.

tendency_

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

to start off, i'd like to thank Barkode and everyone else who has run the Ninja Party at DEFCON. like many others who commented in this thread, i agree that was one of the very top elements of the con and something i looked forward to every single year.

in the face of this, i'm drawn more than anything to DT's comment...

We will be looking for a new hotel..

... that, above all else, makes me so very, very happy. i have liked certain aspects of the Riviera but have consistently had negative experiences here since we arrived. Do not confuse that with me saying that my DEFCONs have been bad ones the past few years... DEFCON is always the highlight of my summer. But the Riv went from bad to worse in terms of attitude.

At first i chalked it up to growing pains, and hoped that the hotel (after the first year) would realize that we're not all criminal meth addicts bent on satanic world domination and treat us properly the following years. It turns out they somehow instead decided that we are so polite and "normal" that we can be looked at as cash machines like every other bozo in las vegas.

i applaud DT's comments and can only hope and pray that the search will result in a new venue for DC17. can the turnaround happen that fast? or are we stuck at the Riv for at least one more summer? (i don't know how far out the lead time goes on DEFCON planning)

Would hosting it at another hotel (besides transport logistics and last minute planning) cost just as much?

see Barkode's comments below...

having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

i'm 100% with you on this, man. anything that is off-site is, in practice, a pretty shit idea during a con. it may sound good on paper but it just doesn't work out, in my opinion. pre-con events, post-con gatherings... that's another story. but during just about any con i want stuff to be at the hotel.

Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider

the last thing we'd want to do is put you or any of the Ninjas in a troubled position. but, i would ask that you don't discount our own ingenuity and the potential options that still exist for pulling this off right there in the Skybox which...

1. we all love to be in
2. you have already planned on using
3. is a great location

People can walk in with their own drinks, but with no bar, they're going to have to walk right back out to get another one.

this could be the most key factor of all. nothing disrespectful of the law or anything that would make people's lives into real hell... but i think that we could totally blast the Riv in the wallet by following that exact rule.

allow me to explain (and this is just me rambling... could be stupid of me to talk so openly about an idea that may never get off the ground because it may just get everyone all fussy and excited about something that may never happen)

1. imagine flyers/tickets/something that say "send an SMS to this number for pre-ninja-party alcohol delivery to your room"
2. in the one or two hours leading up to the ninja party, a squad of volunteers blasts out to the first like 200+ rooms to send a text
3. the alcohol volunteers verify that the person who answers the room door is over 21, and they dispense with a bottle of something purchased from maybe a $2000 booze supply
4. they also give the room a ninja party ticket (follow me on this)
5. any people will be allowed in at the door if they are over 21 and the room isn't too packed... but those who actually bring a ticket down with them will get a KILLER swag item that everyone will want... maybe some sort of drop-leg bag holster with the Ninja Logo on it. this would be used as a booze holster in the party... the people who brought down a bottle (which was delivered by volunteers earlier) would holster said bottle in their leg bag, then just mix drinks all night for anyone they wished.

i picture a bar with 100% non-alcoholic beverages and cups and ice (the hotel can't get in a twist about that) and then the Riv just has to deal with the fact that everyone is having a good time on their own and they priced themselves right out of the equation.

like i say... this might not happen at all (or someone else takes the ball and runs with it) but it would be a way for us to have a great, fully "free drink" party in a skybox without hotel bartenders or even any kind of "open" bar at all

could some people just send an SMS and then not come down to the party? possibly... that's just the cost of doing business. i think that people would want their free gift and their minibosses concert more than a small 750 bottle of vodka or rum.

[ck3k]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I have had the honor of attending the Ninja Networks party over the last couple of years and it has always been the best, most well thought out party of the evening. There is very little trouble, everyone is very cool and we are all there to just have a good time.

I was aware of some of the bs going on last year as I had gotten my badass Ninja Networks pass and was ready to go when I was told that the hotel was making demands for money. I have never liked the "Riv" as from year one for me things just felt out of place and that I was getting nickel and dimed by the hotel. I look forward to a new venue, maybe one that will echo how much fun I had at the Alexis Park.

Cheers to the Ninja Network guys and gals, been a pleasure knowing you guys ever since I was in high school driving out to Sacramento 2600 meetings.

[pinguino]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I'll buy drinks from the Alexis Park bar before the Riviera bar after this. A local liquor store is going to get a lot of business from me. Maybe I'll get a 30 gallon super soaker backpack and offer free drinks to all from it.

supersoaker would be pretty hilarious

[LosT]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I would/will support the Ninjas in any surreptitious party plans ...

LosT

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

i would like to hear some specifics about what constitutes a "no alcohol being served" party in the hotel's mind. if people walk into a skybox holding a beer that they acquired elsewhere... is that legal? does the beer have to be in a cup or can it be in some sort of can or bottle?

what about a mixed drink? i'd seriously be willing to explore the notion of a hundred guests suddenly stopping by a skybox, all of whom happen to be carrying large bottles of Gatorade... you know, because, uh... dehydration is bad in the desert and they're all very conscientious about keeping their electrolytes balanced while they dance.

why would that not work? take the entire issue of alcohol service off of the Ninja's shoulders... people just all happen to have their own bottles of whatever in their pocket.

please feel free to let loose with your predictions about the numerous ways that the hotel could fuck people, as i'm sure there are some of you who, like me, always think of the worst case scenario.

[icetre]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

We will be looking for a new hotel..

DT,

I hate to say it, but I said something about this when the penthouse got kicked square in the nuts. I was told (not by you but by others) that I was "over-reacting" and that I was just a doom sayer.

Honestly This is the best thing we could hear from you! I'm very happy we're hotel shopping again. The riv was good in many ways, but in all too many it didn't meet our needs. Yeah the space was great, and they're responsive on the planning end, but their mob tactics and relentless control of our actions are just retarded. That's not to even mention absence of a proper poolcon, or lack of centralized areas to confer with our peers

Hopefully even if we don't get a new hotel, I hope a new contract is negotiated and these things are defined with proper caps on corkage fees, etc.

Ive said before that I'd be totally willing to buy booze directly from the hotel, provided they would sell it to me at $20 a quart, rather than the $50-75 the catering department charges. (considering I know for a *fact* they're paying $11 a quart for JB for instance.)

Anyways not to get off track but thank you! Hopefully we find something better! Or at least this situation improves.

To be honest, although I've defended the riv as a hotel choice even after our punishment, even going back to the AP would be an improvement. Yeah I know, attendance numbers wouldn't permit but I can dream...

Adam

[barkode]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

1. imagine flyers/tickets/something that say "send an SMS to this number for pre-ninja-party alcohol delivery to your room"
2. in the one or two hours leading up to the ninja party, a squad of volunteers blasts out to the first like 200+ rooms to send a text
3. the alcohol volunteers verify that the person who answers the room door is over 21, and they dispense with a bottle of something purchased from maybe a $2000 booze supply
4. they also give the room a ninja party ticket (follow me on this)
5. any people will be allowed in at the door if they are over 21 and the room isn't too packed... but those who actually bring a ticket down with them will get a KILLER swag item that everyone will want... maybe some sort of drop-leg bag holster with the Ninja Logo on it. this would be used as a booze holster in the party... the people who brought down a bottle (which was delivered by volunteers earlier) would holster said bottle in their leg bag, then just mix drinks all night for anyone they wished.

i picture a bar with 100% non-alcoholic beverages and cups and ice (the hotel can't get in a twist about that) and then the Riv just has to deal with the fact that everyone is having a good time on their own and they priced themselves right out of the equation.

We actually had thought about this, we'd even gone one step further and contemplated literally just giving out camelbaks pre-loaded with a drink to -every single guest-. This is actually cheaper to do than to pay the hotel what they wanted.

We'd also toyed around with the idea of just having a few people wear huge camelbaks and be mobile bartenders. There would be ice and cups for everybody, then just flag down someone with a camelbak and have them pour you a drink.

The problem is really simple - the hotel is hyper-aware of these events at this point and is going to keep an eye on them. Sooner or later, they're going to figure out that there's a lot of booze going around that people did not purchase from the hotel, and as soon as they find out where it's coming from, two things will happen.

First everyone involved on our side gets kicked off the property. Specifically myself, because the hotel knows I run the event. I can live with that.

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules. If I/we refuse to pay it, I guarantee you they're going to try to pass it on to DEFCON.

If I thought for certain that:

A. DEFCON would not get screwed
B. This was our last year on the property for sure

...then I might consider doing something like this, and let them 86 us if it came to that. But that also means that they're probably going to crash down hard on everyone else, and we have to think about that as well. If it was the last year here, perhaps the collateral damage wouldn't be relevant, as by the time it's rippled out, the con is over and we can just collectively give them the finger. But if we might be here another year, we can't be selfish and screw it up for everyone else.

On a side note, there's also simply the disenchantment factor. We put all this work in, and our only remaining obstacle is the hotel, and even with Charel negotiating for us, terms couldn't be reached. If the hotel is going to go out of their way to interfere with the event and make it more and more difficult and just throw up roadblock after roadblock, and even with Charel on board we don't have the support we need to get the hotel out of the way, then fuck it. Why even bother? We're just going to get screwed with non-stop the entire time, the hotel will just come up with reasons to take money from us and everyone else. I'm just not going to play the game at all.

I mean it's just a -private party- in a skybox that would otherwise generate zero revenue, it's not even a bar. We offered to pay corkage at hotel rates. They declined because they -know- we've got money because we paid last year and like any good business, they're not going to take less than they got last time. This is exactly what I'm talking about with setting precedents. Last year we set a bad precedent, and this year we got fucked for it. Can you imagine if we paid them what they want this year?

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

First everyone involved on our side gets kicked off the property. Specifically myself, because the hotel knows I run the event. I can live with that.

you are very noble, but we can't all live with that coming down on you. that's part of the reason i liked the "Gatorade bottles" idea... it's decentralized and involves no stockpile of hooch being dispensed from a skybox-related venue. heh, think peer-to-peer in the torrent style. the Camelback idea (which i LOVED by the way) is too close to Napster... centralized resources that can be targeted and brought down.

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules.

this is the way my poor, libertarian brain over-simplifies matters... but i immediately just come up with the question "what happens when people just tell the hotel to get fucked?"

we paid last year and like any good business, they're not going to take less than they got last time.

i didn't want to ask so bluntly... but i am curious... the donation jars (which the bartenders treated like "tip jars" last year) exactly how were they "confiscated"? i mean... why not just refuse to hand them over and call some red shirts if the bartenders themselves tried to take them from you?

[barkode]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

i didn't want to ask so bluntly... but i am curious... the donation jars (which the bartenders treated like "tip jars" last year) exactly how were they "confiscated"? i mean... why not just refuse to hand them over and call some red shirts if the bartenders themselves tried to take them from you?

They took them and walked out. Someone said something to me, and by the time I was out of my chair, the two guys were long gone.

[jedi]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Secondly, someone is going to going to be paying the hotel a huge sum of money for violating the booze rules.

The hotel has booze rules? I didn't realize that there were rules being enforced outside of their food/drink establishments.

this is the way my poor, libertarian brain over-simplifies matters... but i immediately just come up with the question "what happens when people just tell the hotel to get fucked?"

As for telling the hotel to fuck themselves, I'd say this is a very bad idea. First, Vegas is a pretty small town and it make the proposed hotel shopping DT mentioned harder. Second, I don't they'd have any problem forcing us to leave if provoked. I'll give you an example.

Sunday night last year, I was heading down from my room to meet some friends and happened upon a couple of folks sitting in chairs in one of the elevators. They were passing the time lounging in there, so I struck up a conversation. Eventually, I decided to join them. We grabbed more chairs and stopped back at my floor for a case of New Castle that I had lying round in the room. We eventually had two other guys join us and enjoyed some good conversation all the while the elevator continued in normal service.

Well, apparently someone didn't like the fact that we had occupied one of the elevators and let the hotel security staff know. We eventually stopped at one floor and a security officer in a suit walked in the door. While holding the door open, he told us forcefully that we had to exit the elevator and remove all furniture and beer from the car. Behind him were two security guards in uniforms ready to get physical. We cooperated and did not present them with any reason to make the encounter more serious. As we were removing the chairs, 4 more guards in uniform came running out of the stairwell and stopped next to the other uniforms.

While we were not physically touched nor 86'd, we were treated pretty poorly and told to disperse. I got the impression that if we had given them even the slightest of reasons, they would have escalated the situation and physically 86'd us. I will be more cautious this year around hotel security.

[Dallas]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

The Penthouse party has been broken up every year. How is this going to effect the EFF fundraiser where we are trying to raise funds for a good cause?

Finally..

I typically carry my booze in my backpack and share with anyone, can we not modify that to get around most of the requirements? I spend a lot of last year giving free shots to everyone in the hall.

- Dallas

DT,

I hate to say it, but I said something about this when the penthouse got kicked square in the nuts. I was told (not by you but by others) that I was "over-reacting" and that I was just a doom sayer.

Honestly This is the best thing we could hear from you! I'm very happy we're hotel shopping again. The riv was good in many ways, but in all too many it didn't meet our needs. Yeah the space was great, and they're responsive on the planning end, but their mob tactics and relentless control of our actions are just retarded. That's not to even mention absence of a proper poolcon, or lack of centralized areas to confer with our peers

Hopefully even if we don't get a new hotel, I hope a new contract is negotiated and these things are defined with proper caps on corkage fees, etc.

Ive said before that I'd be totally willing to buy booze directly from the hotel, provided they would sell it to me at $20 a quart, rather than the $50-75 the catering department charges. (considering I know for a *fact* they're paying $11 a quart for JB for instance.)

Anyways not to get off track but thank you! Hopefully we find something better! Or at least this situation improves.

To be honest, although I've defended the riv as a hotel choice even after our punishment, even going back to the AP would be an improvement. Yeah I know, attendance numbers wouldn't permit but I can dream...

Adam

[noid]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

T

Sunday night last year, I was heading down from my room to meet some friends and happened upon a couple of folks sitting in chairs in one of the elevators. They were passing the time lounging in there, so I struck up a conversation. Eventually, I decided to join them. We grabbed more chairs and stopped back at my floor for a case of New Castle that I had lying round in the room. We eventually had two other guys join us and enjoyed some good conversation all the while the elevator continued in normal service.

Well, apparently someone didn't like the fact that we had occupied one of the elevators and let the hotel security staff know. We eventually stopped at one floor and a security officer in a suit walked in the door. While holding the door open, he told us forcefully that we had to exit the elevator and remove all furniture and beer from the car. Behind him were two security guards in uniforms ready to get physical. We cooperated and did not present them with any reason to make the encounter more serious. As we were removing the chairs, 4 more guards in uniform came running out of the stairwell and stopped next to the other uniforms.

While we were not physically touched nor 86'd, we were treated pretty poorly and told to disperse. I got the impression that if we had given them even the slightest of reasons, they would have escalated the situation and physically 86'd us. I will be more cautious this year around hotel security.

Wait. You took over an elevator, put furniture in it, and are unhappy that the hotel took issue with it? Heck, you probably werent just violating their policy but maybe even a few fire codes too. Pick your battles..

And comparing that to what the ninjas have had to deal with..jeeze..