Ninja party is canceled this year

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

xor


In the end it sounds like every person for themselves is going to be the best way to handle it this year thus protecting future cons.

[jedi]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Wait. You took over an elevator, put furniture in it, and are unhappy that the hotel took issue with it? Heck, you probably werent just violating their policy but maybe even a few fire codes too. Pick your battles..

And comparing that to what the ninjas have had to deal with..jeeze..

You absolutely right that we were likely violating fire codes and that it was just as much about safety as it was inconvenience. We saw that almost immediately after the situation was resolved. But you miss my point.

I'm not comparing this in any way, shape or form to the issue currently being discussed in this thread regarding what the ninjas are dealing. In fact, the situation I point out was a random set of events and not an established gathering that has a history. I was only using it as an example to illustrate that I wouldn't want to cross the hotel (and by extension, hotel security) by telling the hotel staff to "get fucked".

If I left you with any other impression, my mistake. I'll chose my words even more carefully next time.

[jedi]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

I believe there was a policy established via the hotel that deliveries were not to made to attendees of the con from outside vendors. Which is why the folks in my room ponied up the cash for a taxi to Costco for some supplies before the con started.

[barkode]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

Catering in a hotel goes through that hotel's food and beverage department, with rare exception. Unfortunately, this is the exact department at the Riv that is screwing us.

[noid]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I believe there was a policy established via the hotel that deliveries were not to made to attendees of the con from outside vendors. Which is why the folks in my room ponied up the cash for a taxi to Costco for some supplies before the con started.

You are correct. A fine upstanding hacker out of NYC bought a few kegs for us security goons. Hotel told him initially that it was OK since they were going to us and not for a party or for resale. When they showed up, they turned them away. When it comes to food and beverage, the hotel doesn't like others peeing in their pool. That, however, will be the case just about anywhere though, its not just the Riv being cocks. We even deal with that at the Pasadena Hilton for LayerOne

[icetre]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

The rates for their catering department to deliver you a bottle of booze are in the order of 50-75 a *quart*


$2000 would disappear very quickly with those kinds of prices.


Adam

What about getting the event catered? Or an alcohol delivery service. I imagine events get catered all the time in Vegas. Just a thought and can be done on short notice,

xor


In the end it sounds like every person for themselves is going to be the best way to handle it this year thus protecting future cons.

[DJ Jackalope]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

*is watching, open-mouthed, and more than slightly horrified*

[winn]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

I know... the facts get in the way of reality... or some shit like that... I posted before I heard DT will look for new venue...

I know many of us miss the freedom of the AP... and it seems just such as damn shame... and OK... I'll shut up untl and unless I get a brainstorm. Or, count me in in a counter-con-party (not against DC, you know ... )

Thinking hard... AND SEND ME FRICKING QUESTIONS!!!! :-)))

Winn

Winn,

Generally speaking, I couldn't agree more. Ingenuity is a virtue, after all.

The issue here isn't that we couldn't come up with alternative plans. There's a lot of alternative plans that sound good on the surface, until you start to think about them logistically.

Most alternative plans involve a change of venue, and this is a really big problem. Besides the simple fact that hackers are notoriously difficult to get from one place to another, getting people safely and expeditiously to and from the location becomes an additional expense.

On a more intangible level - just having the event offsite makes it less convenient to just wander up to casually. It makes it a "thing" that requires forethought and dominates your time, and on top of that, it takes people away from DEFCON, which is counterproductive.

Then there's the art installations, the access control, the SMS wall, the video games, the band, the sound system, the other cool tech stuff, etc, etc, etc. We'd need to get it to and from the other venue, and some of it is designed specifically for the Riviera room.

Could we make something work if we REALLY wanted to? Absolutely. But it wouldn't be the same. It would be spending a lot of money, it would be settling. Could we totally pull some hacker shit? Absolutely. But there's other factors to consider...

If we wanted to overtly break the rules, or just pay the hotel, or lower our expectations, or totally social engineer some crazy shit, or if I wanted to throw a gigantic fit about it and make a huge terrible political mess, we could figure out a way to throw an event at the Riviera. But out of respect for DEFCON we did not want to break the rules to such an extent, and out of respect for ourselves and everyone else, we didn't want to throw a half-ass event.

Throwing the event off-site - that's just a really different thing altogether. We could do it, but we really don't want to. It's just not the same thing.

The easy solution would be a corporate sponsor, right? Well, that is actually on the table. But one thing we had to take into consideration was that we don't want to set a precedent for those that come after us, or for other similar events at DEFCON. If we pony up this kind of cash, the hotel is going to want that from others as well. It's going to set a precedent that you have to seriously pay to play, and that's just not the DEFCON spirit. Reasonable expenses are one thing. Borderline extortion is another. We don't want to screw things up for everyone else later. As soon as the hotel knows they can get this kind of money for unofficial events, they're going to continue to tighten the belt and squeeze money out of everyone they think will pay up.

So yes, we could start pulling cards out of our sleeves and "get away" with something, but there's some intangible factors to consider.

[icetre]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

You are correct. A fine upstanding hacker out of NYC bought a few kegs for us security goons. Hotel told him initially that it was OK since they were going to us and not for a party or for resale. When they showed up, they turned them away. When it comes to food and beverage, the hotel doesn't like others peeing in their pool. That, however, will be the case just about anywhere though, its not just the Riv being cocks. We even deal with that at the Pasadena Hilton for LayerOne

Where they *are* being cocks is, the extortion they're calling 'Hospitality Violations' .
Where they *are* being cocks is, the fact they've been caught *lying* several times, by several individuals.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the hostile and over-reaction of their security department to any 'issue'.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the outright *theft* of money from the ninjas.

I could go on forever, but the fact remains, that even if the convention stays at the hotel, off-sites will become more prevalent and as such more of their money walks out the door, where as if they would have played ball with us they could have had *all* of our money instead they'll get as little as I can give them and get away with it.

Instead of extorting money from the ninjas, why not upsell them into a ballroom for 8k or something?

It's this kind of horrible decision making and mismanagement that has lead to one of the last remaining vestiges of 'Old Vegas' becoming a hangout for N. LV Trailer trash and the Wal-Mart set.

Just to give some perspective on this:

They wanted 12k from the ninjas?

Here's what you get for 8k more...

http://www.palms.com/suites_villas_5.php

And I'm sure they'd kiss your fucking ass as well..

For fuck's sake, they're the Riviera! How long have the rumors of imminent demolition been lingering?

Bah!

Adam

[icetre]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Actually, I'm mistaken; This suite as of 8/08/08 is available for 10k and for many other days at 5k a night.

Where they *are* being cocks is, the extortion they're calling 'Hospitality Violations' .
Where they *are* being cocks is, the fact they've been caught *lying* several times, by several individuals.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the hostile and over-reaction of their security department to any 'issue'.
Where they *are* being cocks is, the outright *theft* of money from the ninjas.

I could go on forever, but the fact remains, that even if the convention stays at the hotel, off-sites will become more prevalent and as such more of their money walks out the door, where as if they would have played ball with us they could have had *all* of our money instead they'll get as little as I can give them and get away with it.

Instead of extorting money from the ninjas, why not upsell them into a ballroom for 8k or something?

It's this kind of horrible decision making and mismanagement that has lead to one of the last remaining vestiges of 'Old Vegas' becoming a hangout for N. LV Trailer trash and the Wal-Mart set.

Just to give some perspective on this:

They wanted 12k from the ninjas?

Here's what you get for 8k more...

http://www.palms.com/suites_villas_5.php

And I'm sure they'd kiss your fucking ass as well..

For fuck's sake, they're the Riviera! How long have the rumors of imminent demolition been lingering?

Bah!

Adam

[Dallas]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

So - What is the status, are all parties in trouble? Do we need to setup a network of hopping from room to room?

Move it across the street?

-Dallas

Actually, I'm mistaken; This suite as of 8/08/08 is available for 10k and for many other days at 5k a night.

[icetre]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Being that defcon is canceled; I don't think it matters. :)

I've already called. Circus Circus has a SWANK suite that's perfect for the needs of a party like the Ninja's or ours. $1600 a night, the room can handle 150 people and it's got a dancefloor type area with a balcony. Not one but two bathrooms and up to 6 bedrooms.

Take a look at this page, and look at the last floorplan the 'executive suite'

Problem is, It's got the exact same issue; house food and booze only.

This is going to be a real problem as long as we stay in Vegas (I know, I know) Other cities have similar rules, but it seems to be much easier to make people turn a blind eye elsewhere.

So - What is the status, are all parties in trouble? Do we need to setup a network of hopping from room to room?

Move it across the street?

-Dallas

[barkode]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

Being that defcon is canceled; I don't think it matters. :)

I've already called. Circus Circus has a SWANK suite that's perfect for the needs of a party like the Ninja's or ours. $1600 a night, the room can handle 150 people and it's got a dancefloor type area with a balcony. Not one but two bathrooms and up to 6 bedrooms.

Take a look at this page, and look at the last floorplan the 'executive suite'

Problem is, It's got the exact same issue; house food and booze only.

This is going to be a real problem as long as we stay in Vegas (I know, I know) Other cities have similar rules, but it seems to be much easier to make people turn a blind eye elsewhere.

The only secret sauce here is just finding a hotel that's willing to cut a reasonable deal for sub-events when it comes to food and beverage, taking into consideration that the sub-event in question is affiliated with DEFCON. That's really all there is to it.

If the Riviera more intelligently weighed the overall value of DEFCON into their decisions in extending discounts to sub-events such as ours, we'd be good to go.

Also to clarify things a bit, I think some people are wondering why it seems that we "gave up so easily" with the Riv event and didn't really go balls-out trying to force/con/social engineer them into an alternative arrangement. Even some of my Ninja compatriots are giving me a bit of the evil eye.

Where's the lateral thinking, eh?

The long and short of it is that cnelson and myself (we're primarily the pre-planners) felt the hotel was going to be a constant barrier between us and the event no matter what deal we arranged with them, plain and simple. Even if we got a more amicable financial arrangement, we just weren't feeling comfortable with relying on them to not screw us somehow on-site, or generally make our lives difficult. We just realized that the hotel was going to be between us and the event the whole time, and when you're hauling truckloads of metal art and a bunch of plasma screens and various other shit out from California, you don't want to have a shaky relationship with the hotel. If we had to cancel the event once we were already on-site, well... man. It takes a lot these days to ruffle my feathers, but that would certainly do it.

Of course we could have thrown a big fit and got a whole bunch of people involved and probably even ended up getting a complete waiver for the thing, but again, the tradeoff to get to that arrangement would have involved pulling favors and just turning it into a real negative thing, caused a bunch of unnecessary tension between DEFCON and hotel, etc.

Hope that clears that up a bit.

[xor]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

The only secret sauce here is just finding a hotel that's willing to cut a reasonable deal for sub-events when it comes to food and beverage, taking into consideration that the sub-event in question is affiliated with DEFCON. That's really all there is to it.

If the Riviera more intelligently weighed the overall value of DEFCON into their decisions in extending discounts to sub-events such as ours, we'd be good to go.

Also to clarify things a bit, I think some people are wondering why it seems that we "gave up so easily" with the Riv event and didn't really go balls-out trying to force/con/social engineer them into an alternative arrangement. Even some of my Ninja compatriots are giving me a bit of the evil eye.

Where's the lateral thinking, eh?

The long and short of it is that cnelson and myself (we're primarily the pre-planners) felt the hotel was going to be a constant barrier between us and the event no matter what deal we arranged with them, plain and simple. Even if we got a more amicable financial arrangement, we just weren't feeling comfortable with relying on them to not screw us somehow on-site, or generally make our lives difficult. We just realized that the hotel was going to be between us and the event the whole time, and when you're hauling truckloads of metal art and a bunch of plasma screens and various other shit out from California, you don't want to have a shaky relationship with the hotel. If we had to cancel the event once we were already on-site, well... man. It takes a lot these days to ruffle my feathers, but that would certainly do it.

Of course we could have thrown a big fit and got a whole bunch of people involved and probably even ended up getting a complete waiver for the thing, but again, the tradeoff to get to that arrangement would have involved pulling favors and just turning it into a real negative thing, caused a bunch of unnecessary tension between DEFCON and hotel, etc.

Hope that clears that up a bit.

Barkode, that's good enough for me. The initial shock and disappointment got the best of me; sorry I understand that you are dealing with the U word here and they can be a difficult group to deal with in any/all arenas.

So what ever happens we will all still make it a Defcon to be remembered. :-)

xor

It's been a crappy couple of weeks for news. The shit stream is really on and I think we are all really feeling it. From jobs, politics, the wars, the economy, gas, 600 Star Bucks being closed, MS Windows XP not being sold anymore, plus life's ups and downs and now no party, & no Star Trek experience we are all feeling the pain. OUCHY!!!!


I think the music in my sig ironically saids it all.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Ninja party is canceled this year

It's been a crappy couple of weeks for news... 600 Star Bucks being closed, MS Windows XP not being sold anymore... we are all feeling the pain.

heh, i fear it's going to be a while before you live that quote down, my good chum. if we were on IRC right now that would so become a channel topic for a few hours.