Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

Well to be honest the people mocking it are the people least likely to participate. From what I have read it is muy popular at anime cons.. don't ask me why, anime never seemed like the most logical medium to learn debate through.. but in order to work you would need:

- 10? 20? experienced debaters?
- Space for how many hours?
- How much space to host it? Two tables, a podium, and chars for XXX audience members?

Could it be done as a special presentation, or does it have to run all day?

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

This could be fun, I think.

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

noid, reading the thread again I do see interest, right along-side the usual mockery from our crowd, some skepticism and one troll.

Question is, is this going to be given a chance? Mockery aside, it will be a success for the following reasons:

1. It's an interactive session, discussing the very religious and very fun matters which our community loves to fight about.

2. We are building it for audience participation as an alcohol game (think TCP/IP game).

3. While a "mature" activity, it is a very adversarial contest. People love fighting (think Hacker Jeopardy).

4. Much like any other event, it is new and therefore interesting.

5. Both Dan Kaminsky and myself, good speakers with a following of people who come to our lectures at defcon, are working on this.
While it seems snobish and unrelated to content, it's only practical--it means that crowds who always come to see either of us "perform" will show up here as well, and the room will be crowded.

6. Even if we do somehow fail, it will indeed be a very fun experience for everyone involved to watch us do so.

We believe in it to try it out, and that it's worth our time to organize. We are willing to commit--that alone shows how serious we are as you guys understand what it is to be busy (except for the troll).

I won't lie to you, there is a possibility this won't work out much like anything else, but give it a chance, if you will. Aren't hackers about not being set in our ways and trying out new things?

How do we move forward in the decision process? Do we just contact one of the people mentioned, or is there something else we should do?

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

DT:
Thanks for your message.

The event can be constructed around any resources you give us.

We believe that for a first event, we should probably limit the tournament to 8 teams.

10? 20? experienced debaters?

We don't believe "experienced debaters" are required. While previous experience certainly is nice, anyone can debate and Steve Llano will create quick-and-dirty training material for hackers toward the event.

- Space for how many hours?

We could do a one hour event, but that is far from optimal.
What we'd like to do, is have 4 hours total distributed throughout defcon (in one day, two, or all three).

- How much space to host it? Two tables, a podium, and chars for XXX audience members?

1. Table for 4 people on either side of a podium (total 8). A podium.
2. One Microphone on podium and one for judges who can sit at another table.
3. If we indeed take it that way, some beer.

Could it be done as a special presentation, or does it have to run all day?

Running the sessions like a defcon lecture is probably the best idea.

Thanks
Gadi.

[LosT]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

Depending on the topic I would be interested in this.

Depending.

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

So, what am I missing? What's the next step?

[TheCotMan]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

So, what am I missing? What's the next step?

Asked and answered:

Just like any other contest or event.

Do you plan on having this happen at Defcon? If you want to have this on the contest floor, then you need to get approval From Russ, and request the resources you might need. Skybox? They might be filled up, or might not. That might require approval from Grifter unless someone else is doing that this year.

If you plan to have the event take place away from Defcon, you will still need approval from DT as either an official or unofficial event.

Once you have approval for space at Defcon, or as an official or unofficial event, then a new forum can be added for the contest/event. Forums are not created unless your contests/event is approved in some way by one of those 3 people mentioned above.

Remember: Just because you get an OK from DT doesn't mean you have space on the contest floor, or a SkyBox! Each domain is controlled by a different person, and they may not have space. It is up to you t follow each thread to completion to get all of the resources you need.

Also, once you have a forum for this contest/event, then you will also need to provide information to Neil (or someone else) if you want your contest/event to be in the program.

If you are following DT's consideration/comments then it might be a candidate for consideration as a "talk" or "presentation" and would then have to contend with all of the other talks as something that people will want to see.

Unless DT say otherwise, then this would suggest that by going this route you would probably go through the same application as the "CFP" (Call for Papers) so you can try to gain approval and access to the resources you need, (like a place to have this happen.) This is a good suggestion to follow while waiting for an official answer from DT himself.

If this were a contest/event on the contest floor, then your direction would be to talk to Russ and get approval from him, Skyboxes through Grifter (assuming he is still the coordinator for them) and of course Neil for main site linkage and probably the DC17 booklet.

Is there enough interest to fill one of the presentation rooms that the talks use? That will probably play a role in whatever decision would be made about approving this as a presentation which will be mutually exclusive to other presentations that would use the same location at the same time.

Good luck.

[HighWiz]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

Is there enough interest to fill one of the presentation rooms that the talks use? That will probably play a role in whatever decision would be made about approving this as a presentation which will be mutually exclusive to other presentations that would use the same location at the same time.

Good luck.

Of course there will be enough interest... Both he and Dan K. are good speakers and they have a following. Didn't you read his [non-snobbish] post CotMan?

I mean it always stands to reason that good speakers are just as good at running contests.

And it's a good thing they're good sports, cause jeez, it would be bad if gadi was a little bitch.

I suppose if I'm going to be accused of being a troll than I better start acting like one. So, fear not! I will make it a point now to troll this topic.

[valkyrie]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

noid, reading the thread again I do see interest, right along-side the usual mockery from our crowd, some skepticism and one troll.

Question is, is this going to be given a chance? Mockery aside, it will be a success for the following reasons:

1. It's an interactive session, discussing the very religious and very fun matters which our community loves to fight about.

2. We are building it for audience participation as an alcohol game (think TCP/IP game).

3. While a "mature" activity, it is a very adversarial contest. People love fighting (think Hacker Jeopardy).

4. Much like any other event, it is new and therefore interesting.

5. Both Dan Kaminsky and myself, good speakers with a following of people who come to our lectures at defcon, are working on this.
While it seems snobish and unrelated to content, it's only practical--it means that crowds who always come to see either of us "perform" will show up here as well, and the room will be crowded.

Are you boys tired of attempting to come up with new and interesting content for DefCon to propose this?

First, I am not a detractor of something of this ilk. Lord knows how many times I have thoroughly enjoyed things like moot court competitions, speakers corners, etc. What I find troublesome about your proposal is:

While at least you are honest, you seem to propose this primarily because you and Dan K. happen to have personal followings which you believe will help pad attendance at your paticular endeavor;

You give a backhand to "teaching" or "demonstrating" proper reasoning and debating skills, which quite frankly cannot be learned only by observing but by doing;

In addition, I have yet in my life to find that teaching or demonstrating proper and efficacious reasoning and debating skills appropriately fueled by alcohol;

6. Even if we do somehow fail, it will indeed be a very fun experience for everyone involved to watch us do so.

We believe in it to try it out, and that it's worth our time to organize. We are willing to commit--that alone shows how serious we are as you guys understand what it is to be busy (except for the troll).

I won't lie to you, there is a possibility this won't work out much like anything else, but give it a chance, if you will. Aren't hackers about not being set in our ways and trying out new things?

to call out Hacker Jeopardy as an example is lame. Hacker Jeopardy is a Q&A game designed to disable the reasoning and rationality skills of participants through the applied use of alchohol. It's funny. Personally, I don't see how watching progressively disabled individuals attempt to debate a topic funny. Nor instructive. Unless one is attempting to demonstrate how the progressive use of alcohol muddies one's reasoning skills. If that is the case, I find Hacker Jeopardy currently fits the requirement.

While just my opinion, perhaps the community would be better served if you three put together a hacker jeopardy team for this year and exercised your mental and muddled foo to win, and came back with another attempt at this idea next year. The concept is intriguing. However I find your stated reasons for it are less than savory, amusing or in any way educational.

Regards,

valkyrie
__________________________________________
sapere aude

[xor]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

So, what am I missing? What's the next step?

Lots of alcohol....

xor

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

Thank you all for your feedback.

Valkyrie, the post you mention is a reply to noid, which shows reasons why we think this event will be good and a success.

You also comment about a couple of my secondary and last points regarding who would organize this proposed idea. After showing the event proposal and clarifying our vision for it which I obviously did a poor job presenting, I answer to his worry that it won't work out that this is not just about the idea.

Adding to the original proposal (days after the original), I am presenting that there is also a team behind it. I am sorry you took this as snobbish and appreciate you calling me out on it.

The point was that people who have shown themselves to be serious are willing to put their time into it, is not a detractor. We recognize we did not in the past run a defcon event and therefore lack experience, but we also mention that we do have a history of doing good at defcon and willing to put our time into it.

The fact that the people involved will also possibly bring a crowd is a positive thing which I did not use in the original proposal and was almost last in my points... so that the proposal would not swing on who suggested the idea, but on its merit.

As to my final note on watching Dan and me fail, well... it's a joke. But it's also true. That's the worst that can happen and while acknowledging it, I assure you we have no intention of failing--even if that that could be quite fun for the crowd because of who we are.

Thanks for your time,

Gadi.

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

TheCotMan, sorry for being slow, but are you saying my next step is to submit a defcon CFP with this idea?

[valkyrie]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

A s you chose to not answer my questions or assertions based upon your posts, I am just going to assume that you don't care for my questions nor do you care to answer my assertions.

I wish you all much luck in your endeavors.

Regards,

valkyrie
_______________________________
saprere aude

[TheCotMan]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

TheCotMan, sorry for being slow, but are you saying my next step is to submit a defcon CFP with this idea?

No. I'm saying that you have a dialog with DT, where he has asked some questions and you answered them, and this discussion strongly suggests use of a presentation area used by speakers. If you are looking to follow the discussed venue, then while you wait for DT to respond to the answers you provided, it would be *wise* to submit this as a CFP.

I don't run anything at defcon, and I am not a goon. I help with the forums, and sometimes talk with the people that do the real work at Defcon (Roamer, Noid, Neil, DT, Russ, and more of the same people that volunteer at con.) The only thing I am providing you with, is the suggestion based on experience, and observation of what has failed in the past, and what as worked in the past.

If you get DT to say your event is allowed to happen (in the speaker rooms, or otherwise) then my path is clear for making a contest/event forum for this, and moving this thread into it. Neil's path is also clear for updating a link to it on the main defcon page for DC17, too. However, your path will need to continue to contact the next groups of defcon people to get the resources you need. Additionally, if this doesn't take place in a speaker room, you may also need to request space from the person or people organizing the space you desire at Defcon.

I'll emphasize this next part again:

It is your responsibility to follow each thread to completion. At this moment, you have a dialog with DT (above.) You should finish that, before moving on to claiming this event/contest is a go. While you wait for a response, it would be wise to submit this as a CFP, because that might be what is expected, as you are looking for space in a speaking room where approved CFP will also be taking place.

Good luck.


(I've seen one or two cases where One person okayed a contest, but another person didn't know about it, so the contest was squeezed out of Defcon because by the time the problem was found, there wasn't any more space to allocate. Track down all the people that can get you the resources you want to use, because failure to do this may mean failure for the event/contest to happen.)

[gadi]

Re: Suggesting a new defcon event: Hackers Parliamentary Debate or HPD

A s you chose to not answer my questions or assertions based upon your posts, I am just going to assume that you don't care for my questions nor do you care to answer my assertions.

I wish you all much luck in your endeavors.

valkyrie, what have I not answered?