Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

[erehwon]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

What about a open mic for stand up? This could happen during one of the nights in the Chillout Area. We could have nerf balls as you come in, so instead of people just booing people off - the could be nerfed off. Though the number of volunteers might be seem slim in these forums, considering out intoxicated people get, we will probably have a large number of volunteers that just show up.

We could also have them sign an agreement that says we get to post this instantly on the net.

Yes/No?

Oh neat, Defcon Gong Show?!?

Someone needs to bring the Popsicle Twins!

[big chopper]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

What about a open mic for stand up? This could happen during one of the nights in the Chillout Area. We could have nerf balls as you come in, so instead of people just booing people off - the could be nerfed off. Though the number of volunteers might be seem slim in these forums, considering out intoxicated people get, we will probably have a large number of volunteers that just show up.

We could also have them sign an agreement that says we get to post this instantly on the net.

Yes/No?

YES. I like this idea.
--BC,

[altNull]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

What about a open mic for stand up? This could happen during one of the nights in the Chillout Area. We could have nerf balls as you come in, so instead of people just booing people off - the could be nerfed off. Though the number of volunteers might be seem slim in these forums, considering out intoxicated people get, we will probably have a large number of volunteers that just show up.

We could also have them sign an agreement that says we get to post this instantly on the net.

Yes/No?

[p11aulastro]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

thanks/////////////////

[Chris]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

how about a poetry slam????

Worst.
First post.
EVER.

[p11aulastro]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

how about a poetry slam????

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

If we can get a wireless SME on board then I'm 99% sure we can send the video out over some kind of 802.11x mesh.

If the network weren't already so slammed, it would be really cute to design an application that transmits at full speed to fake wireless destinations as well as a companion application to intercept those transmissions and reconstruct playback. (It's something I've been thinking about for years, so I wouldn't be surprised if an IEEE search revealed an existing research project.)

Of course, asking people at Defcon to install an application that requires root privileges (although one could easily leverage off the existing PCAP service) is a hilariously bad idea.

[liberator]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

Check out Future of DCTV where we discussed this in the past.

Thanks Spike. There's some good stuff in there. But it's an old enough thread that I may violate the forum rules by replying to it. Yet we need to take the TV stuff out of this thread. I guess I'll start a new one and provide a link to the old one.

I can probably get my employer to let me borrow a MPEG transport stream multiplexer and QAM modulator and other gear. With this I could grab up to a dozen SD feeds and build them into a single ATSC transport stream. I'd be happy to lead that effort, just holler.

That ATSC stream could then at least be sent over a single video channel in the hotel, if the Riv will let us. If the room TVs are analog then the guests either need an ATSC converter for the TV (could be from the viewer's home TV) or just feed the coax into an ATSC USB dongle on the PC.

Of course, the low power ATSC transmitter is a slam dunk; it's trivial. In fact, RF retransmission is within the capabilities of many guests, all of whom would be getting the signal.

If we can get a wireless SME on board then I'm 99% sure we can send the video out over some kind of 802.11x mesh. As somebody in the other thread pointed out, associating with the AP is not required. I do know enough about networks to be reasonably sure that there's a way to make multicast work for us after all. I have not heard from an 802.11x SME any showstopper that has me convinced of its futility, at least not yet. That's not to say that my bliss can't be punctured by lifting my ignorance; it just hasn't happened yet from what I read on the other thread. I'm happy to work with the 802.11x team as well.

[Club81]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

[QUOTE=Rhenium;109392]

Not to spill too many beans, but there are some things in the works for next year (Yes we are back at the Riv - Contract signed through 2010).

Which weekend will this be?
I'm guessing the 30th July to the 1st August, but I just wanted to plan ahead.

Rhenium

Yep, right on the defcon.org home: DEFCON 18 will happen July 29th - August 1, 2010!

[Rhenium]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

[QUOTE=Dark Tangent;109361]Not to spill too many beans, but there are some things in the works for next year (Yes we are back at the Riv - Contract signed through 2010).

Which weekend will this be?
I'm guessing the 30th July to the 1st August, but I just wanted to plan ahead.

Rhenium

[Voltage Spike]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

5 - Wireless
I'm no 802.11 expert. But I am a digital video expert. I know for sure that you can get pretty good SD video at about 3 Mbps. Given that 802.11b is 11 Mbps, I would guess that 3 SD UDP multicasts @ 3 Mbps each would not be a problem for a single AP, no? Maybe there's more to it, but it seems straightforward enough. Use multiple APs or 802.11N and you have the bandwidth for all of the video feeds. As always, I'm willing and able to work with others on solving this. And I work with a lot of people who are experts in both digital video and wireless networks, so I can ask them about this if there is a desire to go down this path.

Check out Future of DCTV where we discussed this in the past. In short:

• Multicast doesn't help with anything except backbone distribution
• 802.11b isn't 11 Mbps, it is 7 Mbps
• 802.11b broadcast (and I don't believe that 802.11n changes this) gives you only 1 or 2 Mbps for broadcast (which would completely dominate the airwaves)

There is also talk of using ATSC...

[The Dark Tangent]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

Not to spill too many beans, but there are some things in the works for next year (Yes we are back at the Riv - Contract signed through 2010).

- One day training classes on Thursday are being considered, it's something I've always wanted to do. I can't announce the cost, class size, or topics yet, but would love to hear people talk about what they would want.
- Live streaming of all the speaking tracks and possibly some other areas as well. It would have to be a pay service to cover the costs and investments, but I _really_ like the idea of people from other countries who can't afford to fly to Vegas to still be able to participate in a limited manner. We're looking into providers that can manage the registration and video streams / chat rooms / etc. Waiting to learn more about costs, as you pay per stream and I have no idea how popular (or not) it might be.
- As most of you guys know I always am looking at possible venues to better DEF CON. I'll be in Vegas next weekend looking at a possibility.
- And YES we are already working on badge ideas. I was paying attention to the tread about it, but then it died down.

Keep up the good conversation everyone, I want to thank the people who take the time to provide honest feedback and ideas.

[liberator]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

Thanks to everybody for posting your feedback, ideas, etc. I agree with much of what has been said.

Here is my $0.02. This is just my opinion; I have no way of knowing how representative it may be.

1 - Overcrowding
Almost all of the problems with hall crowding, delays, seating, etc. trace back to the venue just being too small. Rooms, hallways, restrooms, number of grannies throttling throughput into the buffet, everything is about 50% undersized. Sure, there are ways to manage traffic, etc. in such a constrained environment. I thought about many ways to improve this and will be happy to share if anybody is interested (i.e. goons, planners). But really, it all gets solved when the space increases by 50% or so. Trying to cram another 10 pounds into the already overloaded sack is not productive IMHO. At best it makes it slightly safer and more tolerable provided we don't ever grow. Not terribly useful compared to just getting the right sized venue.

2 - Venue
Given the potential problems with getting a different venue in Las Vegas for this increased size, I say move it to another US airline hub city. Denver, Chicago, Atlanta, MSP, LA, whatever. If it's reasonably central then that's probably good. Having cheap airfares available is better. Not being in the convention business I don't know which city would have the appropriate facilities, etc., but I'm happy to volunteer to do some research in this regard if it is desired.

3 - Badge issues
I'm in the camp of "the electronic badge is more of a hassle than it's worth." Make it optional. Personally I liked the DC15 badge the best, but that's not important. I design and build things similar to the badge for a living, so an electronic DC badge is not a turn-on for me personally. I understand the coolness factor for many people, fine, just have a separate track for those of use who are happy without it.

4 - Pre-registration
This is a wonderful idea because it makes planning easier. It can be done anonymously as easily as taking payment via prepaid debit cards that you can buy at the drugstore for cash. People who don't care about anonymity have more choices here. I think it would be an option that would make things go smoother for everyone and reduce risk for DT and staff (e.g. estimating attendance, # of badges and CDs needed, etc.)

4 - Video
Personally I'd be happiest to be able to get the video feed and not travel. Defcon costs me about $1K all up to attend, which is the bargain of the century. Unfortunately it also costs me almost a day of travel each way. I'd gladly pay $1K to just get the video and skip the travel. Seriously.

I work for a pay TV company (MSO - Multi-System Operator, think Cox, Comcast, Time Warner, etc.). My guess is that we could put the Defcon feeds up on something like Hulu or even standard MSO PPV (like a sporting event) and everybody would be happy. The MSOs and Hulu are already in the business of selling live PPV TV by subscription so it fits neatly into their business model. Instantly it becomes available to pretty much everybody in the world. Again, I'm happy to talk with people about this, do some research, etc.

5 - Wireless
I'm no 802.11 expert. But I am a digital video expert. I know for sure that you can get pretty good SD video at about 3 Mbps. Given that 802.11b is 11 Mbps, I would guess that 3 SD UDP multicasts @ 3 Mbps each would not be a problem for a single AP, no? Maybe there's more to it, but it seems straightforward enough. Use multiple APs or 802.11N and you have the bandwidth for all of the video feeds. As always, I'm willing and able to work with others on solving this. And I work with a lot of people who are experts in both digital video and wireless networks, so I can ask them about this if there is a desire to go down this path.

Another option may be to simply broadcast the stuff over low power ATSC feeds. If you have a $50 ATSC USB dongle then you can get it on your laptop, but you only get 1 at a time.

A single QAM256 modulator that is 6 MHz wide supplies 38.8 Mbps. It typically carries 12 SD video feeds on a cable TV plant. Thus we can easily fit everything we need onto a single ATSC feed that is only 6 MHz wide, and every modern TV or USB dongle can tune it.

SUMMARY
Next year I'll likely skip Defcon if it's still at the Riv; I just don't need the hassle. I will gladly buy the video in whatever form and be very happy to give DT, EFF, etc. the money rather than the Riv, the airlines, etc.

[Rosemaker]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

When it comes to channels, is there anyway to tie into their PPV system to watch the talks? Mayhaps you could convince them to add a channel available for a $5 per day room charge; this would discourage the masses but be easily affordable by today's hacker-on-the-go (read unemployed college student).

[krux]

Re: Post DEFCON 17: thoughts, ideas, suggestions -- make Defcon 18 better!

Jeez, thanks for the constructive criticism. It really warms my heart.

I thought the badge was pretty awesome this year. Very hackable, and the through hole proto-space was a very nice touch. I haven't had much time to actually hack at it, other than some simple things with the I2C bus. But I like what you did with the badge and look forward to playing around with the two badges I ended up picking up. (yes, if you didn't get a badge this year, it was because I specifically stood in line Thursday morning and bought two because I knew I'd want to hack them)

As far as badges go, DC15 is still my favorite badge to date. I converted the power supply over to a usb charged lithium ion battery using a MAX1555, and added the accelerometer. I'm curious if anyone managed to get the Zigbee stuff working.