Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Agreed. I made this point in post 18 of this thread as well.

https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=18

Ah yes, I missed that one! But yeah, the point remains. They don't give a shit about our rules.

[Chris]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I think that lost in all the discussion over these new TSA rules (special screenings for people from certain countries, etc.) is that we're asking other people in these countries to carry them out for us. Sure, we have some supposed leverage over them ("Follow our rules or you won't be able to fly into our country!"), but this isn't even the TSA doing the pat-downs, the supplementary screenings, the millimeter wave radar scans, etc., it's the security staffs of these foreign airlines and airports. What sort of training do they have? What do we know about their backgrounds and such? Do they even have a millimeter wave radar scanner (some do, courtesy of the U.S. State Department) and even more importantly, do they know how do use it? For example, Nigeria has four such scanners given by the U.S. State Department, but apparently either doesn't use them or doesn't have the expertise to use them.

The latest news is that some foreign airports are simply ignoring the TSA rules.

Agreed. I made this point in post 18 of this thread as well.

https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=18

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I think that lost in all the discussion over these new TSA rules (special screenings for people from certain countries, etc.) is that we're asking other people in these countries to carry them out for us. Sure, we have some supposed leverage over them ("Follow our rules or you won't be able to fly into our country!"), but this isn't even the TSA doing the pat-downs, the supplementary screenings, the millimeter wave radar scans, etc., it's the security staffs of these foreign airlines and airports. What sort of training do they have? What do we know about their backgrounds and such? Do they even have a millimeter wave radar scanner (some do, courtesy of the U.S. State Department) and even more importantly, do they know how do use it? For example, Nigeria has four such scanners given by the U.S. State Department, but apparently either doesn't use them or doesn't have the expertise to use them.

The latest news is that some foreign airports are simply ignoring the TSA rules.

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I'm glad to see that the TSA is so vigilant that they couldn't even stop a man from walking through an exit on the public side to the secure side.

You know that one TSA person sitting at the exit, probably reading a book or newspaper; what is it that they do other than ensure that the exit is a one way valve for passengers?!

And of course, they never found the guy; but not for taking passengers off of flights that had already been boarded and forced them to go through screening again.

AQ must be laughing at the perception/reality of our incompetence.

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I thought your idea was a good one, but I had no idea this was already being implemented. I found this article today http://www.nationalterroralert.com/u...e-on-airports/

I'm glad to see articles like this coming out. I think the regular populace and sees 'profiling' and immediately assumes it's entirely about race or religion. The general populace needs to be more educated that profiling looks at a wide variety of factors.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

5. Behavioral Profiling

I thought your idea was a good one, but I had no idea this was already being implemented. I found this article today http://www.nationalterroralert.com/u...e-on-airports/

[Lowie]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.

Sorry Streaker, I didn't mean to imply you hadn't realised that. I was just saying it's unfortunately not possible, due mainly to security not being paramount in the design of new passenger aircraft.

Really, it should be safety first, security second, and keeping passengers amused well down the list from there. But alas, marketing rules the day.

If I had it my way, the only windows on passenger aircraft would be for the flight deck... but that's another tract altogether.

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

the fact that the press doesn't say that with each and every story is only a cunt hair short of criminal, in my view, because they are contributing to national panic and a rise in the sheeple population.

People's perception of reality is not only formed by what the news says, but it's also formed by what they see in movies and TV. We've all seen it with the average person that doesn't understand technology that thinks everything they see CTU do on 24 is actually possible, and don't even get me started on last seasons incident with the chemical plant.

Look at all the movies that have been out over the years where a small firearm was fired through a window and the entire side of the plane blew out. I agree, Mythbusters did a good job of showing it just doesn't happen. But the average person isn't watching Mythbusters. People will continue to argue their test was invalid because they didn't do it at altitude and at speed therefore there's some other factors that come into play.

What's really quite funny (peculiar, not ha-ha) is that none of this non-profiling measures aren't new, it goes at least back to the early 80's and probably even further back. Everyone remember the scene in the first Airplane! movie when they frisked granny while guys when through with all kinds of weapons? If it wasn't happening back then, chances are, it wouldn't have made it into the movie.

(yes, I see the irony in using a movie scene to point out something after saying people's perception is based upon what they see in a movie, but I think my point in this case is valid.)

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

yeap, Aloha Air 243

A picture is worth a thousand words!

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

with this system [of individualized mini-cabins] an explosion will vent most of [its] pressure out a window.

see below for my feelings on this important matter.

Hawaii that had ten feet of the fuselage break free due to fatigue and they still landed alright.

yeap, Aloha Air 243 (actually an inter-island flight)

that flight incident should be referred to constantly in the press at times like this, but sadly it's not. i take the MythBusters approach to considering matters such as these. As Adam pointed out during the "explosive decompression" myth (in which Aloha 243 was actually referenced briefly) "seeing this sort of stuff serves to reinforce how safe i feel on planes... it takes a lot to bring one of these out of the sky."

recall, the Aloha 243 flight was made by a 19-year-old Boeing 737, which had gone nearly 20% beyond it's designed lifespan. this was 1988.

given the advances in airframe technology and plane manufacturing since then... not to mention tests that take place at the FAA center (a mere 45 minutes down the expressway from me!) with actual bombs in fuselages... how much explosive force is needed to actually blow one of these outta the sky is very significant nowadays.

the fact that the press doesn't say that with each and every story is only a cunt hair short of criminal, in my view, because they are contributing to national panic and a rise in the sheeple population.

the 'puffer' and the back-scatter scanner.Both expensive, and both still in testing.

i'm interested in seeing the puffer technology develop more. of course, all of this should be part of a system of additional potential checks, challenges, and inspection based around behavioral profiling.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

This image has been making the rounds, so you may have seen it... but for those who haven't yet...

... in most ways, this is totally understandable... given that most "snow globes" contain liquid, and all but the smallest ones would contain said liquid in volumes beyond what is permitted currently. this time of year, it's not surprising to have lots of people flying back home with snow globe gifts from the holidays. it's also not super-surprising for people to want to hand-carry them since they are sentimental and fragile and most people don't know how to pack things so they don't get broken.

still, it should be the passenger who anticipates this case since the liquids rule (stupid as it is) has been in place for ages now. the real shame is people having to turn back and either separate-check the snow globe (with what? a shitty little airline-supplied pouch with no padding?) or try to mail it home (at the few and far-between in-airport post offices that so often don't have the right supplies for fragile goods?)

where you really need this sign is down at the check-in counters so that someone can place a frantic phone call to their relative pulling away from the curb, saying "oh my god... make a loop and come back around so you can take this snow globe from me, i can't have it here!"

[barry99705]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.

I remember something on Beyond 2000 back in the late 80's that had individual "cabins" in each row. They all had their own roll up doors, and were bullet resistant. You couldn't put as many people on the airplane as you normally can, but with this system an explosion will vent most of it's pressure out a window.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

The latest news on this incident reeks of fail...

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-board-flight/

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Unfortunately not feasible. Aircraft interiors are optioned in many different configs dependant on Airline / flight route requirements. In addition to different configurations, interior fit-outs are available from multiple manufacturers. And during the lifespan of an aircraft it's not unusual for interior config to change four or five times.

I do realize that. I was more or less joking about the idea. The sheer cost of implementing such a plan would make it completely infeasible.

[Lowie]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I do agree with most of your points, but I have some issues here. Blast-proof walls would add considerable weight to the plane, more weight means less capacity for luggage. I can see they'd have issues with this, but I do actually like the idea, but with one addition. They should also have the ability to pull a near vacuum once the person is locked inside. No oxygen, no combustion, plus it'll calm the person down, quickly.

Unfortunately not feasible. Aircraft interiors are optioned in many different configs dependant on Airline / flight route requirements. In addition to different configurations, interior fit-outs are available from multiple manufacturers. And during the lifespan of an aircraft it's not unusual for interior config to change four or five times.

I do think all planes should carry cuffs and shackles with the crew trained how to properly secure an unruly person on board. I've read too many reports where they have improvised tying someone to a chair. Maybe they have them, I don't know, but if they don't, they should.

I can't speak for every airline of course, but until recently all of my airlines aircraft were fitted with handcuffs in the cockpit to restrain unruly passengers. More recently these have been replaced in favour of large zip ties. These are much easier to use and much harder to remove. And they do get used quite regularly, mainly for drunk, aggressive or drug affected individuals.