Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Remember when the British were testing blast resistant / vented luggage carriers for airplanes? The idea is that if a bomb went off these strong containers would vent the explosive gasses off over a longer period of time and reduce their effect.

Airplanes are fairly resistant to windows and doors blowing out. I remember a flight heading to Hawaii that had ten feet of the fuselage break free due to fatigue and they still landed alright.

That means you have to carry enough explosive to cause a big enough hole, which means on your person as the nitrogen would be detected on the hybrid x-ray scanners. As far as I know the only defenses here are the 'puffer' and the back-scatter scanner.Both expensive, and both still in testing. The back-scatter may even be unhealthy by un-zipping your DNA. http://tech.yahoo.com/blogs/null/154196

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Side note:

CBS news is reporting that restrictions are being eased and that it's up to the captain of the flight as to what you can and cannot have at the end of the flight. No word on the restriction to one carry-on though.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n6030609.shtml

So basically TSA is basically passing on "the bad guy" to the airlines.

[renderman]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Side note:

CBS news is reporting that restrictions are being eased and that it's up to the captain of the flight as to what you can and cannot have at the end of the flight. No word on the restriction to one carry-on though.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n6030609.shtml

[xor]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Actually putting a fire out on a plane is a fairly simple process, as long as it hasn't hit the fuel of course. De-pressurize the plane, no o2 to burn, no fire. It doesn't have to be rapid either, it can be done slowly. Most people can live without o2 for more than 5 minutes.

What you want is a hard, light material, that can withstand concussion. With most explosions it's the concussive forces that do that damage. That shock wave created by the explosion will do the most damage. Perhaps some type of force redirecting plates on the fuel tanks to safety channel the forces away.

xor

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Instead of the flight attendant being a nice girl in a pencil skirt asking you if you want a Sprite, she should be armed and trained to handle violent/terrorist scenarios - calmly asking people to return to their seats does nothing. In addition to the safety video shown prior to each flight, there should be a video about how the passengers are expected to behave and what will happen if they do not. Bathrooms on the plane should have blast-proof walls and doors that lock from the outside, and if a passenger ends up being armed or has explosives, the flight attendants (and some volunteers, if necessary) should try to throw the person in there and lock the door. True, this may make the bathroom unusable for the rest of the flight, but I think anyone who had to go would have already wet themselves at this point.

I do agree with most of your points, but I have some issues here. Blast-proof walls would add considerable weight to the plane, more weight means less capacity for luggage. I can see they'd have issues with this, but I do actually like the idea, but with one addition. They should also have the ability to pull a near vacuum once the person is locked inside. No oxygen, no combustion, plus it'll calm the person down, quickly.

I do think all planes should carry cuffs and shackles with the crew trained how to properly secure an unruly person on board. I've read too many reports where they have improvised tying someone to a chair. Maybe they have them, I don't know, but if they don't, they should.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

I basically like all the suggestions so far. Here's the version from my little world...

I like the idea of using some sort of identifier other than the person's name when booking a flight. Perhaps assigning each person a passenger ID the first time he/she flies (or first time after the rule was made) and keeping track of a few things would help weed out a lot of non-threats, such as businesspersons who fly often. Thorn's idea about using data and looking for patterns makes sense. Flight destinations, age, ethnicity, etc. ARE appropriate to use for screening, especially when that many lives could be at stake. I think the number of bags checked, any obvious display of nationalistic or religious loyalties, any prior problems/arguments with the flight crew or other passengers, other people they fly with, etc. should be logged as well.

When booking the flight, people should have to declare how many checked bags they plan to bring, and this should be locked in on their ticket so they are obligated to not exceed that number. When traveling with pets, one has to call and make special arrangements, so I think calling to make arrangements for firearms, large musical instruments, and other items that require special handling is also a good idea. This is not so much a safety thing but it is for the protection of the owner's property. Plus if the check-in desk knows that three guys with weapons and one with a tuba are going to be on the flight, they can have someone ready to handle and inspect those items so the owner does not have to waste time waiting and does not hold up the regular line. People checking NO bags should have to use the self-checkin kiosk.

I like Deviant Ollam's idea of behavioral profiling. I think this should be done as people are entering the airport as well as at the security check point at the gate. Additionally, the flight crew should be taught the basics of behavioral profiling. shrdlu is right that there are instances when being politically correct is not feasible. Which is more important - lives and security or the dignity of a few people who were wrongly scrutinized? We know that a handful of ethnicities, ideals, and nationalities have been behind the attacks that have happened so far, and we know that certain clothing, colors, sayings, and symbols represent those ideals or nationalities. The personnel conducting behavioral profiling should covertly keep a close eye on such persons, only making a scene if it seems necessary to do so. The profiler should also notice if the person seems to have any sort of connection or relationship with someone else who is present or if the person seems to be spending a lot of time nervously making calls, making lots of bathroom visits, etc.

At the checkpoint, someone should check a person's ticket to make sure it is valid. If the person is carrying a carry-on item, the TSA official should stamp or punch the ticket once for each item. If the person has no carry-on item and did not check a bag, this should throw up a red flag for additional screening, especially if the ticket is one-way. They should be searched and asked why they were heading one-way with no bags, and a profiler should be present to gauge their reactions.

I am still not sure how I feel about everyone's bag being scanned. Personally, I hate for my bag to have to drag across those filthy little rollers. I think taking off shoes and outerwear is ridiculous. Unless someone is wearing a particularly out of season ensemble like a long trenchcoat or gangstawear puff jacket in the middle of August, then there should not be an issue. The people who DO dress like that year round should expect to undergo a more detailed screening. Rather than standard metal detectors, airports need to use ones that show WHERE the metal is that is registering with the detector. A 5" knife-shaped thing in someone's boot is a cause for concern. Heavy piercings and a metal studded belt are probably not. And some chick can hide a knife in her weave just as easily as she can in a purse, but nobody would expect that. Military-grade devices used for detecting explosives, detecting abnormalities on a person's body (such as a vest loaded with explosives), and detecting the density of metal objects should be used. These devices do exist, but it seems like only the military is making use of them at this point.

Instead of the flight attendant being a nice girl in a pencil skirt asking you if you want a Sprite, she should be armed and trained to handle violent/terrorist scenarios - calmly asking people to return to their seats does nothing. In addition to the safety video shown prior to each flight, there should be a video about how the passengers are expected to behave and what will happen if they do not. Bathrooms on the plane should have blast-proof walls and doors that lock from the outside, and if a passenger ends up being armed or has explosives, the flight attendants (and some volunteers, if necessary) should try to throw the person in there and lock the door. True, this may make the bathroom unusable for the rest of the flight, but I think anyone who had to go would have already wet themselves at this point.

[xor]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

These are some of the comments I heard on TV:

This is the sheep culture we're dealing with. I agree with others that profiling (behavioral and otherwise) is key.

I agree with theprez98 on this one, as non-pc as that makes me. On a lighter note, all uncircumcised men should be strip searched. I know terrible.

xor

[theprez98]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

These are some of the comments I heard on TV:

"If it makes us more safe, I'm all for it."

"If you have a problem with the new rules, you shouldn't fly."

This is the sheep culture we're dealing with. I agree with others that profiling (behavioral and otherwise) is key.

One of the many problems is that "the man" (well, in this case, the woman, Secretary Napolitano) is a politician...and (without getting into politics), the nature of the politician is to do something, anything, to reassure people. It's a pipe dream, but having a DHS Secretary, TSA Dir, etc., who aren't politicians, and don't give a damn about political correctness and playing politician, would be nice.

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Spot On Deviant! Lots of good ideas and I have two others for consideration.

How about Fed-Ex shipping and drop boxes at the security gate that can be purchased with a CC. That way, if security does happen to find something that you may have forgotten you can quickly throw it in a box and drop it for delivery back to your home so items don't get confiscated and then resold.

I think one of the other issues many people have is the inconsistency of how policies are applied many times in the same airport let alone across the entire transportation system. I think more training needs to be done with the staff to ensure that policies are being applied properly across the board.

I will say, I don't fly much. Last time was 8 years ago. I prefer my horse and buggy to big aluminum tubes that are always fighting gravity.

[Thorn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Not profiling based on available information and data is stupid. Data is data. To specially ignore certain valid pieces of data for fear of offending people is ridiculous.

Over twenty years ago, I knew of a an AI system that was used to profile passengers on international flights. It looked at several different factors, including passport/national origin, ethnicity, seating locations, age, and ticket purchase date in relation to flight date. (There were probably other additional factors that I don't recall today.) If certain patterns came up, it automatically put a hold on the flight until it was checked by people who knew what they were actually looking for and at as far as real dangers.

This system was put in place for testing. It worked. It worked well; in fact, it worked very, very well. It was killed almost immediately. I don't know for certain, but I strongly suspect it was for political reasons because it profiled based, in part, on things like ethnicity and country on origin.

For the technically minded: As I mentioned this was over 20 years ago. The application was running on a 386, at something like 10 or 12MHz, using running dBase III and some custom modules written in C. It makes you wonder what could be done today, if we had the political will to proceed and actually use the data we have in front of our noses.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Well, since it seems like we're doing this here in the current thread, i suppose i'll lay down my own thoughts on the process. Heh, while i'm not as TSA-averse as shrdlu, i do think they are a big part of the problem and cannot be the "core" component of any new solution we roll out... the public simply has too much distrust and contempt for them.

So, how would it work if i were in charge? Well...

1. Airport Arrival

I am an absolute fascist about how people should behave curbside at airports. I have all my gear in the truck absolutely ready to roll and whichever family member or girlfriend is dropping me off knows to have all all the chit-chat and emotional whatnot out of the way before we stop at the curb. I am out the door like a shot and seize a cart as fast as i can. All the gear gets moved outta the truck (often it's Daisy or whomever else is with me unloading the gear as i am coming back with the cart) and i'm headed into the main doors in under 60 seconds. That's the right way to do things... and it has a security implication. Not letting unattended or otherwise idle vehicles just sit at the curb is a good thing, and i appreciate the officers at PHL who get in people's faces about it all the time. The same rule would apply to the "picking up arrived passengers" side of things... if your passenger is not standing outside right where you pull up your car then you have no business stopping at the curb. even toddlers and hobos have cel phones nowadays. you have one, too... use it. until the party you're coming to pick up calls you and says "i'm at the curb under sign number 66" then you shouldn't be coming to the curb.

How to improve this phase of the process? - Free bag carts everywhere. Let the airports lose a few bucks, maybe reimburse them with a fraction of what the TSA spends on shit all the time, and call it a "security enhancing measure" ... anything that gets people's gear in order and gets vehicles outta the way faster is a good thing.

2. Airport Check-In

I don't really care if there are humans or not when i'm signing in to the kiosk and so forth. As long as a human is available somewhere so i can "declare my firearms as soon as i arrive at the airport" and it keeps me in compliance with the law.

How to improve this process? - I'd love all reservations and ticketing to be handled with a ticket number and booking code, not my name. Showing ID should only happen if you've lost all of your forms and information and have booked your ticket using a real name as a last-resort "reset my password" kind of measure.

It would also be really nice if there were scales in random public places out in the check-in hall where people could weigh their luggage before approaching the counter, thus we wouldn't have people fucking about with it right there and acting all flustered about the weight. People acting flustered or worried about their luggage at the counter should be a sign of something totally different, which we'll cover later.

3. Baggage Check-in and Screening

Here's where life gets very different. Whenever i fly nowadays, my luggage doesn't go immediately back to the bowels of the airport at check-in. Because of my firearms, i always have to accompany my bags to a screening area. Sometimes it's right in front of me, sometimes it's behind a small partition or in an adjacent room. Either way... my bags are locked and remain secure during the screening.

If and only if they alert, do i calmly unlock the bags and step back for a hand-scan to be performed. With that completed to their satisfaction (and with my belongings re-packed to my satisfaction) the bag is re-locked and sent on its way. This is ABSOLUTELY the right way to do things. (for reasons we'll get to in a bit)

How to improve this process? - In my view, all travelers should have baggage scanning handled this way... where the passengers themselves are present for the process and then can lock their bags up upon its conclusion. Having locked bags traveling through the airport system should be the norm, since it prevents any surreptitious meddling with the luggage or insertion of foreign objects by a threat actor who may have gained employment in the baggage handling department.

4. Passenger Screening

Here's where we have to start to address the heart of the issue about most airlines safety... don't try to frame matters in terms of what items you want to keep out of the cabin in-flight, but rather what actions or outcomes you wish to prevent during the journey.

Objects with sharp edges or blades or any other "tools" can potentially be scary (yes, someone could hold them in a menacing or threatening manner) but they are no longer a threat to the plane. You can't get into the cockpit or disable the engines or electronics of a plane with blades or tools. The cockpit doors should be super-reinforced and only opened in-flight when the co-pilot is armed and one member of the flight crew is standing facing the passengers should the pilot need to use the head. Meals can be delivered under the same circumstances. Otherwise, that door should be locked at all times.

How to improve this process? - Again, we should stop thinking about preventing "bad" people or "dangerous" items from being on the plane and just focus on bad events taking place. Some ass with a knife may act in a threatening way... but he or she is going to get their ass beat and not have a chance of bringing down the plane. I don't give a fuck about knives or blades of any kind being in the passenger cabin with me, really... i'd like to stop having to surrender mine every time i check-in for my flights.

As far as liquids... i actually do think there should be some sort of limit on what can come through, simply because enough of a dangerous liquid can bring about serious distress to an aircraft. If i had to draw a line in the sand, i'd say 1 quart or 1 liter is the max size of a liquid one can bring... and all liquids would be susceptible to additional inspection. (more on that later)

No more surrendering shoes or taking laptops out of the bag... all the money we piss away should be invested in better x-ray scanner technologies, possibly including back-scatter devices that would reveal if you're carrying anything under your clothes.

Bottom line... passing through passenger screening by dropping a bag on the belt, emptying pockets into a small tray, and not having to remove shoes or any outerwear is the best we should shoot for.

5. Behavioral Profiling

This is the big enchilada and it should be the key part, in my view, of any decent security system (for airports or anywhere, really).

This shouldn't be implemented through the TSA... i feel that too much corporate culture and groupthink has infected and corrupted that agency and i don't want them near this new, elite division nor do i want TSA people failing upwards and being promoted from within to positions of behavioral screeners.

From the time anyone enters the airport, they should be visible to highly-trained, well-educated persons who evaluate things like posture, gait, clothing, facial expressions, attitude, and many other factors. These screeners wouldn't interact ever with the public... they would communicate recommendations to the staff on the ground level regarding what treatment persons should receive in terms of scanning and inspection.

How to implement this process? - As one can see by re-reading my above comments, my whole system makes the behavioral screening more feasible. Having passengers present with their bags during check-in and bag inspection makes them observable. I envision covert commands into a radio like, "Station #43, be aware of the white male in the red shirt... he appears to be focusing inordinately on the blue suitcase allegedly owned by his female travel companion. Perform an explosive residue swab test while i gauge his reaction."

I imagine a small panel of lights on the metal detector through which we proceed, sometimes illuminated by a behavioral screener and sometimes popping randomly... one color indicates "give this person an additional pat-down" and another color indicates "ask to look in their bag" etc etc.

I know there's a whole lot more to this process than i'm saying here... but there you have the core of how i'd implement airport and air travel security...

1. keep people moving along with free carts
2. no ID needed to fly domestically
3. passengers with their bags during screening, bags stay locked afterwards
4. small blades, small tools, and up to 1 Liter/Quart of liquid is ok *
5. keep your shoes and outerwear on during screening *
6. behavioral profiling, by a body separate from the TSA, is the key to improving our security

* but subject to additional screening if it is deemed to be necessary

[streaker69]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Be careful what you wish for.

I would fire all the TSA folk. Every damned one of them. Even the ones that have been nice, and helpful... Gone. X-Ray machines? Gone. Stupid rules about tickets must have your name on them, and you can't sell someone your seat, and so on? Gone. You get the idea.

Back in the day of planes being hijacked to Cuba, and of travelers with poor health buying insurance policies, and then blowing up the plane mid-air (it happened a couple of times, at least, that I recall), there were none of the crazy security theater measures that we have now, and yet very few (if any) people worried about being blown out of the sky. I admit that the collective IQ in the world seems to have dropped 20 points in the past 20 years, but I think there's still time to return to less stupid, more thinking.

So? What do we do about the crotch cretin and his ilk? It's pretty simple, and I know, for sure, that I'll be preaching to the choir, but here it is. Lose the political correctness that has beset us in this. Focus on those people who really seem to have a chip on their shoulder, and who really mean to do us harm, and quit pretending that Ray Charles needs to be singled out for special screening (I was there, before you think that's an exaggeration.

The father of this boy did his damndest to tell us, and somebody's head will roll over this (but never the right somebody, as we know). The crazy shooter in TX was a known problem. Same story. Enough with the PC. There are plenty of good decent folk in this country that just happen to be muslim, and a few crazies that should stand out like sore thumbs, if we weren't so busy bending backwards on the "don't want to offend" rule.

Actually, what I've just said can be construed as political, but it's the only solution that's really going to work. I used to like flying. I'd like to like it again.

I couldn't agree with you more on this. So far this is what I heard:

• He was allowed on the flight without a passport
• He had a one way ticket
• The ticket was paid for in cash
• He had no luggage
• He had no carry on

Even with all those issues, he was not pulled aside for secondary screening, he was allowed to board. WTF!?! How is one allowed to board an international flight without a friggen passport?

I think I posted this before, but when we were in Hawaii we were waiting for an inter-island flight from Maui to Oahu and ended up talking to the people sitting with us in line. She worked for an airline and always purchased 1 way tickets, so they said they always got pulled aside for secondary screening. Sure enough, when it came time to board, they were, and they almost didn't get a seat on the plane since inter-island flights are about the same as a city bus, once it's full they close the plane.

How did this mutt even get on the plane? Nothing is going to change if the people doing the job aren't doing it. PC crap be damned.

[shrdlu]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

Maybe it's time (either in this thread or a new thread... which is best?) for folk to have something i encourage once in a while... a "if i were in charge it would be this way" session....

How should it all work, in your ideal world?

Be careful what you wish for.

I would fire all the TSA folk. Every damned one of them. Even the ones that have been nice, and helpful... Gone. X-Ray machines? Gone. Stupid rules about tickets must have your name on them, and you can't sell someone your seat, and so on? Gone. You get the idea.

Back in the day of planes being hijacked to Cuba, and of travelers with poor health buying insurance policies, and then blowing up the plane mid-air (it happened a couple of times, at least, that I recall), there were none of the crazy security theater measures that we have now, and yet very few (if any) people worried about being blown out of the sky. I admit that the collective IQ in the world seems to have dropped 20 points in the past 20 years, but I think there's still time to return to less stupid, more thinking.

So? What do we do about the crotch cretin and his ilk? It's pretty simple, and I know, for sure, that I'll be preaching to the choir, but here it is. Lose the political correctness that has beset us in this. Focus on those people who really seem to have a chip on their shoulder, and who really mean to do us harm, and quit pretending that Ray Charles needs to be singled out for special screening (I was there, before you think that's an exaggeration.

The father of this boy did his damndest to tell us, and somebody's head will roll over this (but never the right somebody, as we know). The crazy shooter in TX was a known problem. Same story. Enough with the PC. There are plenty of good decent folk in this country that just happen to be muslim, and a few crazies that should stand out like sore thumbs, if we weren't so busy bending backwards on the "don't want to offend" rule.

Actually, what I've just said can be construed as political, but it's the only solution that's really going to work. I used to like flying. I'd like to like it again.

[AgentDarkApple]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

imagine yourself with little modular "people" and "technologies" that you could spread out on the kitchen table, and arrange a path for the little Playmobil traveler to get through to his or her plane. How does the Playmobil terrorist get stopped? How should it all work, in your ideal world?

I like this idea, and I will probably come back with suggestions once I analyze it a bit.

BUT...even if we were able to eradicate the presence of weapons and explosives on an airplane, what would keep the terrorists or other mischievous individuals from finding a loophole and using some form of martial arts or improvising by using something else as a weapon? I have seen and heard about instances in which terrorists or gang members jacked up their adrenaline by taking drugs and were able to keep fighting even when they were being shot up. The other option is that the terrorists will give up on blowing up planes and find an alternative means of attack. After all, attacking planes might be the current M.O., but even some serial killers have had to change their M.O. to avoid capture. I assume most of you are well-read enough to know that terrorist strategy generally involves "the biggest bang for the buck" in that they want to kill or destroy as much as they can without having to spend a lot of money on the attack and while using the least number of people possible to carry out the attack directly. Why wait to get on the plane and kill 70ish people when someone can walk right into the airport with a case full of explosives and set it off inside the airport, killing hundreds of people without ever having to pass through a checkpoint. I would not be surprised if they turn to massacring people in crowded shopping malls, working as janitors or lunch ladies at a school then killing massive amounts of innocent children, etc.

[Thorn]

Re: Recent Events - Airplane Bathroom Cameras

...
There's also the issue of cargo pants ...

... what's to stop the next bunghole from sneaking something on board in as Deviant mentioned in a coat, cargo pants, purse, etc? ...

I routinely wear black BDU cargo pants, mainly because I like the extra pockets and find jeans uncomfortable. Back in August I was patted down by the TSA merely because I was wearing them. The TSA supervisor pointed at me (specifically at my thigh pocket) as I was unloading the pocket for the X-ray machine, and had me pulled aside.

Edit: By the way, and professionally speaking, it was a lousy frisk. I could have had sizable weapons in at least four areas of my body, and the guy who patted me down would have missed them. He concentrated on my pockets and the sides of my waist. He skipped my crotch, the inside of my thighs, ankles, butt, and back. It was strictly theater, and it was piss-poor acting on his part.