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  • xor
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.
    I didn't want to be the first to say that, but I can't agree more. Google is a business, and it's it's a business decision, nothing more. The Chinese who seem to be all about business today, need to make up their minds whether they want free enterprise, or not.

    xor
    Last edited by xor; January 13, 2010, 20:32.

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  • TheCotMan
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Assuming the access violations were government sanctioned, and the government controls law enforcement, what other option would they have?

    It would be like fighting a war where the enemy owns all grounds of contention, employs better spies than you, and more experienced generals and troops. Additionally, they can fathom google and identify motivation, direction and action. It is pretty easy to understand motivation with China, but the actions they will take are not understood by anyone else.

    Just as appropriate here: "Who watches the watchmen?"

    Leave a comment:


  • theprez98
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by Dark Tangent View Post
    Check out this older article talking speculating about Google exiting the Chinese market.. adds a new twist:


    "Google's China Blues
    Published: 21 Dec 2009 17:32:13 PST
    Rumors have been flying about Google's future in China ever since the company's China head, Kai-Fu Lee, resigned in early September to start an incubator lab in Beijing. His departure seemed awfully abrupt. "

    http://news.alibaba.com/article/deta...ina-blues.html
    It sounds as if a combination of tough economics + difficult regulatory environment made it good business sense to start packing up and leaving. Perhaps the infrastructure attacks were just the last straw to break the camel's back.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Dark Tangent
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Check out this older article talking speculating about Google exiting the Chinese market.. adds a new twist:


    "Google's China Blues
    Published: 21 Dec 2009 17:32:13 PST
    Rumors have been flying about Google's future in China ever since the company's China head, Kai-Fu Lee, resigned in early September to start an incubator lab in Beijing. His departure seemed awfully abrupt. "

    http://news.alibaba.com/article/deta...ina-blues.html

    Leave a comment:


  • SalusaSecondus
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    From an economic perspective, all the motivation they need to pull out from China is if the cost of doing business there (Bad PR, Loss of IP, Security Response, etc.) is greater than their (expected) profits (which, from what I've heard, are low there). So, this could (to support shrdlu's cynicism) simply be a business decision + PR stunt. ("We're pulling out of China, how do we not make this look like a failure and retreat and possibly get some good will in the rest of the world ...?")

    That said, I don't (completely) buy that argument for one reason only: Their public announcement that they have been hacked and that IP has been exfiltrated. This doesn't make for good PR and reads much more like an attempt to strike back at the Chinese Government, even at the expense of their own reputation. I think that Google may be deciding that a physical presence in China poses an unacceptable risk to their infrastructure and that they want other companies to realize how bad the threat is.

    Personally, I'm hoping that more details become available both on what information was stolen (we already have guesses as to how, Adobe PDF 0-days) and on attack patterns on the email accounts. This problem might be far larger that anyone has realized yet because we don't yet have the information to correlate all of the potential incidents.

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  • theprez98
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by shrdlu View Post
    I'm just barely becoming caffeinated, so the cynicism's going to be a bit blunt, sorry. Considering how crippled Google has been in China, and that they are not the top search engine (or even close), partly due to that crippling, I might venture that it's as much to do with "not going to show a profit" as it is "do less evil." The infrastructure attacks are certainly a reason, but I doubt strongly the other two.

    It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.
    Market share numbers for China are difficult to come by, but I did find this:
    Baidu 64.4%
    Google.com 26.1%
    (July '08)
    This is clearly in line with your statement that they are not the top search engine (or even close), but it's not unsubstantial. Consider that 26% market share is more than both Yahoo and Bing combined in the United States (~24%).

    For sure, businesses exist for market share and profits, but profits and virtue aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

    Leave a comment:


  • shrdlu
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by Deviant Ollam View Post
    Personally, i'm glad we're seeing this shift, if it actually comes to pass. I am given to wonder if it has to do mostly with...

    * their infrastructure getting attacked
    * worries about public opinion in the face of China's actions
    * deciding to "Do Less Evil"

    ... and i don't rightly know which reason i'd like to think is the primary one. as i say... it mostly remains to be seen how they wind up pursuing this, but it's a very interesting development, nonetheless.
    I'm just barely becoming caffeinated, so the cynicism's going to be a bit blunt, sorry. Considering how crippled Google has been in China, and that they are not the top search engine (or even close), partly due to that crippling, I might venture that it's as much to do with "not going to show a profit" as it is "do less evil." The infrastructure attacks are certainly a reason, but I doubt strongly the other two.

    It's a business. It's about market share, and profits. I don't fault them for that, but I also think that the reasons for standing up to CN are pragmatic, not virtuous.

    Leave a comment:


  • g3k_
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by Thorn View Post
    Aren't "uncensored searches" and "complies with Chinese law" direct opposites?
    Yup, but that's from Google's mouth not mine :P

    Leave a comment:


  • prot
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Let's hope they go through with their intentions of withdrawing from China. Just to make a point to other companies being attacked by "the Chinese" or other similar countries and DON'T have the balls to do something about it.

    There has to come a point when someone says "Okay, this is it. We're done with getting screwed by you, we're gonna take actions now." And this may be that point and Google the one taking the actions.

    Leave a comment:


  • Thorn
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by g3k_ View Post
    Awesome! I turned that on a while ago in my settings, I'm glad it's default now.

    I've been catching up on all the RSS/Twitter buzz about this incident and like it was said earlier in the thread, it almost seems like it will come to a point where Google will pull out of China completely. I don't see them working with the Chinese government to allow uncensored searches that complies with Chinese law.
    Aren't "uncensored searches" and "complies with Chinese law" direct opposites?

    Leave a comment:


  • g3k_
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by theprez98 View Post
    HTTPS is now the default for gmail rather than just an option (the login page has long been https, of course, but this now encrypts the entire session).
    Awesome! I turned that on a while ago in my settings, I'm glad it's default now.

    I've been catching up on all the RSS/Twitter buzz about this incident and like it was said earlier in the thread, it almost seems like it will come to a point where Google will pull out of China completely. I don't see them working with the Chinese government to allow uncensored searches that complies with Chinese law.

    Leave a comment:


  • theprez98
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    HTTPS is now the default for gmail rather than just an option (the login page has long been https, of course, but this now encrypts the entire session).

    Leave a comment:


  • AgentDarkApple
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Originally posted by bascule View Post
    My only anticipated outcome is a withdrawal from China by Google. As I assume this will happen, mad props to Google for having the balls to pull out...
    Harsh but true. And other US-based entities need to follow suit.

    Leave a comment:


  • bascule
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    My only anticipated outcome is a withdrawal from China by Google. As I assume this will happen, mad props to Google for having the balls to pull out when the whore you're fucking turns out to be a bitch so stupid you want to slap her upside the face. She doesn't deserve your cum in her mouth. That is all.

    Leave a comment:


  • theprez98
    replied
    Re: Google and China

    Google appears to be growing some balls. Time will tell if they actually follow through on their threat.

    Leave a comment:

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