Schools Spy on Students

[shrdlu]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

Hangin's too good for her, burnin's too good for her, she should be cut into itsy bitsy pieces and buried alive.

I just wanted to point out that, while I agree with the sentiment, the buried alive part is not going to work if you employ the cut into itsy bitsy pieces first. I usually prefer the choice of pet food volunteer. They use perfectly good horses, after all, and they could just toss her into the grinder, as a small addition, without worrying about being humane.

[streaker69]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

I just wanted to point out that, while I agree with the sentiment, the buried alive part is not going to work if you employ the cut into itsy bitsy pieces first. I usually prefer the choice of pet food volunteer. They use perfectly good horses, after all, and they could just toss her into the grinder, as a small addition, without worrying about being humane.

You need to sit down and watch the movie "Heavy Metal". Pay particular attention to the part with Hanover Fisk. Then you'll get what I said.

[shrdlu]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

You need to sit down and watch the movie "Heavy Metal". Pay particular attention to the part with Hanover Fisk. Then you'll get what I said.

Actually, I caught the reference. I'm actually old enough to have seen that movie in a theatre. That's actually "Hanover Fist" (otherwise it isn't funny). God that was a LONG time ago. I used to read the magazine.

Anyway, the point still stands. Do it my way.

[Thorn]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

Actually, I caught the reference. I'm actually old enough to have seen that movie in a theatre. That's actually "Hanover Fist" (otherwise it isn't funny). God that was a LONG time ago. I used to read the magazine.

Damn. I was beginning to think I was the only left alive who'd seen Heavy Metal in the theater, and had actually read the magazine. It's nice to know there's at least one other person still around.

[theprez98]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

The school now admits they took ~56,000 photos.

[streaker69]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

The school now admits they took ~56,000 photos.

I believe what's really going to nail them is this:

And in about 15 activations, investigators have been unable to identify exactly why a student's laptop was being monitored.

And I realize that pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt, but it of course doesn't look good.

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2010/04/webcamscanda/

The lawsuit said the administrator, who has been placed on paid leave, “invokes the Fifth Amendment to every question asked of her, including a question asked as to whether she had ever downloading (sic) pictures to her own computer, including pictures of students who were naked while in their home.”

A comment on one article said that she has had her home computer scrubbed and so far has refused to turn it over to investigators all the time denying that she downloaded any images to it. That begs the question from the almighty google, if you didn't do anything wrong, you have nothing to hide.

[Thorn]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

And I realize that pleading the 5th is not an admission of guilt, but it of course doesn't look good.

This isn't about this case directly, but after working 20 years in police work, I can unequivocally state that anyone who doesn't immediately shut up and ask for a lawyer when questioned as a potential by law enforcement is a complete idiot.

Even if you are completely innocent and have absolutely nothing to hide, any and all statements you make will be viewed in the worst possible light. Period. "Lawyering up" may make you look like you have something to hide, but it protects your rights.

[streaker69]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

This isn't about this case directly, but after working 20 years in police work, I can unequivocally state that anyone who doesn't immediately shut up and ask for a lawyer when questioned as a potential by law enforcement is a complete idiot.

Even if you a completely innocent and have absolutely nothing to hide, any and all statements you make will be viewed in the worst possible light. Period. "Lawyering up" may make you look like you have something to hide, but it protects your rights.

I agree and understand that, but in this case it isn't a matter of her asking for a lawyer, because I believe she has one. It's about her pleading the 5th to protect herself from self incriminating. I'm sure her lawyer has advised her to do that until all the evidence is in and then ask for a plea deal.

[theprez98]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

It also doesn't look good when the school district's lawyer admits wrong-doing:

The district's attorney, Henry Hockeimer, declined to describe in detail any of the recovered Web cam photos, or identify the people in them or their surroundings. He said none appeared to show "salacious or inappropriate" images but said that in no way justified the use of the program.

"The taking of these pictures without student consent in their homes was obviously wrong," Hockeimer said.

[Thorn]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

I agree and understand that, but in this case it isn't a matter of her asking for a lawyer, because I believe she has one. It's about her pleading the 5th to protect herself from self incriminating. I'm sure her lawyer has advised her to do that until all the evidence is in and then ask for a plea deal.

It's an extension of the same right. While I understand what you're saying -it makes her look guilty to the average person- that's an incorrect, but common, layman's interpretation of how the Fifth Amendment is applied. Invoking the Fifth Amendment is legal shorthand for saying "I don't know what statements that the investigators and prosecutors might see as harmful to me, therefore I choose to say nothing." Since ANY statement made by an individual about their alleged involvement in a crime can be seen as self-incriminating, therefore the refusal to make any statement or answer any question falls under the Fifth Amendment.

There are only two legal exceptions to that:

1) Invoking you rights under the Fifth Amendment (In other words, invoking the rights can't be seen as casting you in a guilty light)
2) Direct statements that say in effect "I didn't do (whatever the accusation might be)."

However, in many jurisdictions, lying to investigators is in itself a crime, and even denying knowledge of an indirect involvement -e.g. accessory after the fact-, might be seen as lying to the investigators. The fact that someone is being questioned in the first place is because the have some potential knowledge of a crime. Therefore, the legally safe option open to most people is to invoke their right to not self-incriminate.

In the specifics of this case, especially since no criminal charges have yet been filed, the individuals involved should be invoking their Fifth Amendment rights. They'd be crazy not to, since the LMSD's lawyer is throwing them to the wolves and essentially blaming them.

[streaker69]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

In the specifics of this case, especially since no criminal charges have yet been filed, the individuals involved should be invoking their Fifth Amendment rights. They'd be crazy not to, since the LMSD's lawyer is throwing them to the wolves and essentially blaming them.

Ok, well that makes sense then. Thanks for clearing it up. I'm wondering if the Schools counsel is throwing them under the bus because he wasn't consulted when the system was installed.

I just found this article, and it says something a little different.

The depositions taken to date have provided contradictory testimony about the reasons for tracking Robbins' laptop. One of the two people authorized to activate the program, technology coordinator Carol Cafiero, invoked her Fifth Amendment right not to answer questions at the deposition, Haltzman said.

Isn't it a little different pleading the 5th at a deposition than doing it while being questioned in the little room with two way mirrors? Plus, is there any difference in the way works between a civil and criminal trial? At this point, no criminal charges have been filed, and I believe the deposition has been all for the civil lawsuit.

[Thorn]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

Ok, well that makes sense then. Thanks for clearing it up. I'm wondering if the Schools counsel is throwing them under the bus because he wasn't consulted when the system was installed.

Could be. It could also be because they're guilt as hell.

As counsel to the district, his job is to protect the district, and probably the board and a few key administrators. No matter what, he isn't there to protect the employees. That goes double if they really are guilty, or even if the circumstances are merely legally questionable, and he can distance his client (the district) from the actions of the employees.

[streaker69]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

This could get them in even more trouble:

"Not only was Blake Robbins being spied upon, but every one of the people he was IM chatting with were spied upon," said Haltzman, whose lawsuit alleges wiretap and privacy violations. "They captured pictures of people that have nothing to do with Harriton. It could be his cousin from Connecticut."

IF the school actually had a written policy that the students signed and agreed to the potential of being monitored, third parties most certainly could not have been included in that agreement. So tapping into private conversations via IM with third parties not associated with the school would probably violate federal wiretap laws, and taking pictures of people that were not members of the school is probably illegal in some way.

The other question here is, what other organizations are using this same software? I doubt that LMSD is the only client of whatever company wrote it.

[shrdlu]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

I just remain so disturbed by all this. The evil that permeates all this is incredible. Yes, I did indeed use the word "evil" and I meant it. I cannot fathom a person who would participate in this, and feel that it was justified. I would object to this if it had been imposed upon adults. To think that people took advantage of their position which should have been the protector of our children, and used that position instead to exploit them, enrages me.

That someone could do this, without hesitation, shows a profound and gaping hole where one's moral compass should reside. There can be no amount of prosecution, no lengthy jail term, that will ever make up for any of this. If any of them attempt to use the I was just doing what I was told defense, I hope they're the first to meet cousin Bubba when they go to the prison term that they so richly deserve.

Yes, I've had coffee. You should have seen the first response that I wanted to make.

[facon12]

Re: Schools Spy on Students

According to http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/201...amprobe-judge/ the feds seem pretty interested in this. I'm really curious who they would go after on a criminal level if they did find something they think they can prosecute with. Right now it seems like all roads are running to the IT admin. I don't fully understand how they expect to pull that off in the civil case because my understanding is that a school administrator confronted a student with one of the photos, which to me would show that they were ok with at least some of the pictures being taken of the students.