Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

[sk00t]

Okay, I'm biased, admittedly.

I've spent too many years scrambling to get something resembling coherent content together a month (A MONTH!) before con for the DefCon CD, and it annoys me. It sticks in my craw. It makes me all twitchy. It makes my piles act up, makes me curse more than usual, and I feel an out-cycle cold sore coming on. At this point, DefCon is pretty much the only con I can think of that actually puts out a physical CD, and the various logistical headaches with meatspace media mean that DC staff needs that data by July 1, every year, much to both speaker's and minion's chagrin.

So, lemme ask you people for an honest answer: do you actually read talk content off the CD, or do you do what I do and wait till a few days after con and read the talk content off of the usual sources - speaker's blogs, defcon.org, Vimeo, torrent sites, the internal NSA Sharepoint, and whatnot?

This is not to say that the DefCon CD is a bad thing - I can see some other nifty useful content, DJ tracks, puzzles, recipes, contest-related data, etc, going there, but for those of us giving talks, a month is long time ahead of the game to get content, and the truth is that most of us just paste Loren Ipsum in and maybe some semi-random noise that faintly resembles what we actually say at con.

So what say you, DefCon peoples? Do you want a CD in your con materials or not?

[hexjunkie]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

The CD isn't required if the data was put in one location on the web I'd think. If an ISO was put up on the site here... perhaps this would prevent the creation and time frame because you can put the ISO up the day of con... It is just very hard to collect the data from "all the usual sources" without taking a ton of notes while at the con. Not to mention that since a very large chunk of the speaker content is on the cd I can read it after the con for the talks that I couldn't make it too.

Just an idea.

[sintax_error]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

As for speaker content, yes it's nice to have. That being said, all the other data that goes in there is very nice to have. And if all the speaker content were to be moved off the CD, and hosted as an ISO, perhaps available as a torrent, if for no other reason than to avoid turning whatever server it's on into a molten puddle of goo, I for one would be all for it.

As long as it's essentially the same content that has previously been put on disc, so it's all in one location, the masses would likely be happy. And as hex said, it could be put up relatively late in the game, I'd say day or night prior to con officially kicking off, giving speakers time to add in more up to date slides, and be closer to a final draft.

[shrdlu]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

First off, I want to say that I recognize the ENORMOUS amount of effort that goes into preparing the conference CD, and getting all the speaker information of other items together. It's not just herding cats; it's tending to rabid and feral beasts that are all intent on making the lives of staff miserable. My sympathy and respect to the behind the scenes people who make it come off every year.

I've spent too many years scrambling to get something resembling coherent content together a month (A MONTH!) before con for the DefCon CD, and it annoys me...At this point, DefCon is pretty much the only con I can think of that actually puts out a physical CD, and the various logistical headaches with meatspace media mean that DC staff needs that data by July 1, every year, much to both speaker's and minion's chagrin.

Well, speaking as someone who remembers when they started adding CDs, and who has (to my knowledge) a full collection of same, I'd say that the short answer is that it gives the staff a warm and fuzzy feeling that there's actually some chance you'll be prepared for your talk. I'd say July 1 is plenty of lead time for you, and considering the preparations that go into making a successful professional conference, it's more than generous.

So, lemme ask you people for an honest answer: do you actually read talk content off the CD, or do you do what I do and wait till a few days after con and read the talk content off of the usual sources - speaker's blogs, defcon.org, Vimeo, torrent sites, the internal NSA Sharepoint, and whatnot?

I *only* read talk content from the CD. In those rare instances where I'm willing to put up with standing in line to wait for a talk, I'm going to have looked at the potential discussion to have questions ready ahead of time, or to decide whether or not an interesting description is going to lead to something good. Often I've commiserated with friends who'd attended something that turned out to be less useful than they'd hoped, and my own avoidance of said disaster was due to the CD.

Now I admit that I won't be there this year (perhaps not ever again), but as a long time attendee, I want to state up front that it's a very valuable resource, especially for those that are actually interested in attending the talks.

This is not to say that the DefCon CD is a bad thing - I can see some other nifty useful content, DJ tracks, puzzles, recipes, contest-related data, etc, going there, but for those of us giving talks, a month is long time ahead of the game to get content, and the truth is that most of us just paste Loren Ipsum in and maybe some semi-random noise that faintly resembles what we actually say at con.

See, all of the other stuff on the CD is just random noise to me. My tastes in music make it unlikely that I would EVER listen to any of the DJ tracks (I'm an outlier in this, and I acknowledge that).

While "most" of you may just paste in random noise, I have more respect for those that make the effort to be professional in this. I also believe that it isn't most, since I've seen some very professional presentations on the CD, and those were followed up by the actual speaker. If you're working on what you have to say until the last minute, you're doing it wrong.

As an aside, I truly miss the closed circuit TV. I just dislike hanging out with several thousand of my closest friends, and it was so nice to be able to attend virtually.

[noid]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

I like the *content* on the CD, but having a physical CD in my hand isnt a requirement. If there were torrents being seeded and a location on the website with an .ISO, I'd be fine.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

... preparing the conference CD, and getting all the speaker information of other items together. It's not just herding cats; it's tending to rabid and feral beasts that are all intent on making the lives of staff miserable.

Not all would-be speakers at Defcon are equally organized. The CD becomes an excuse to force people to get organized enough to collect their thoughts a month before the conference, so they can have at least one month of time to prepare the presentation for that content. Submitting content for the CD is kind of like a commitment to actually present the content that speaker provide. It seemed to me that once the CD became routine, the schedule of speakers really started to settle, with fewer substitutions, cancellations and schedule rearrangements. At a tool to increase the chances that more speakers will be prepared to speak, I like the CD.

As for the CD itself:

The first year it was handed out, the people in my group thought it was a prank not affiliated with Defcon so much as an opportunity for a "hah-hah" moment at the end of con, where someone comes on stage as asks how many people put the CD into their windows computer, and then went on to ask about autorun for CD and more on a practical joke. That didn't happen. We used a Linux laptop anyway and mounted it manually, only to find documents about Defcon. Cool.

I like the CD as a reference. I attend the presentations I want to hear so that I can ask questions. Usually, I don't need to consult the CD as a reference, but it is certainly nice to have it if I should happen to need it. I also like the fancy artwork on the CD and have kept the Defcon CDs like I have kept the Defcon badges; they are reminders of the new things I learned or fun I had while I Defcon.

[sk00t]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

Well, sounds like the people have spoken.

Shrdlu, I think your points are valid, and I don't want to make excuses for slacking, by any means, and I certainly perceive talks that have fully-formed content on the CD in a positive light as well.

Keep in mind, though, that in the case of the final round of acceptances, some folks literally have had a week to get something together. For most of us, this isn't anything like a full-time job, and we're doing things in whatever resembles spare time that we have.

I personally don't know if giving folks up to the day of the talk to finish content necessarily would mean weaker talks, but maybe it would. Certainly for some folks not having a deadline to get something together ahead of time might mean they wouldn't plan ahead at all.

[shrdlu]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

I like the *content* on the CD, but having a physical CD in my hand isnt a requirement. If there were torrents being seeded and a location on the website with an .ISO, I'd be fine.

Oh, my friend, that's a case of bandwidth gone wrong. The CD is a many to one sort of thing, and once it's created, there's no worry about network access, or corruptions in the stream... With the CD, everyone starts off on the same footing. Nothing wrong with having the ISO/Torrent in addition to the CD, but it's one of those things that I appreciate the most.

[Ne0nRa1n]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

My embarrassing confession is that I don't think I have ever even looked at the conference CD in all the years that I have gotten one.

And in these last few years were I have chosen to idiotically work on projects that take a year to do, I always feel as if I should be apologizing for the slide deck that I submit for the CD since I never really know how the project is going to turn out till the last minute so there is huge sections of my slides that I can't fill in till direction before I present it.

[Thorn]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

Personally, I love the and want the content, but a CD is so... 20th Century. Kind of like Latin; occasionally it's useful to know it once existed, but otherwise the damned thing's dead. Hell, my latest laptop doesn't even have a CD/DVD drive. It isn't missed. I don't even bother to keep a portable CD drive in my bag anymore, and can't think of the last time I needed it. It's interesting to note that the health care conferences by wife attends haven't had their presentation content on CD in at least four or five years. It's all been on USB drives.

The DC content on USB drives would be more convenient, in my opinion. A USB drive integrated into the badges, containing the speaker content, would be the cat's ass. (Hint, hint, Joe. Get cracking'! )

As a speaker in the past, my feeling is that having the content in a month in advance was a minor inconvenience, but hardly insurmountable.

[Nikita]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

I'm enjoying reading your responses. I'd like to offer my perspective. From the person who: is the Speaker Liaison, Builds the DEF CON schedule, and collects the material, converts it, tags it, scans it for maliciousness and masters the CD. I think I can offer my opinion to the collective.

Every year we give the speakers a deadline to get those materials in. I'm going to explain how it went this year, just so you can get a peak into the inner workings. A large chunk of speakers were accepted before the close of the CFP, but a GOOD sizable portion was excepted the week before the deadline to submit presentation materials. Most of them submitted on the close of the CFP, June 1st, about 150 talks approx.

That meant the final round was delayed, they were accepted the 23-26, the deadline for con cd material was the 30th. They were give an extension, to the 4th, however we can't extend the production deadline, this year it is the 5th. Meaning I will get at least 50 slide decks the night before I have to have them mastered to the CD and shipped. This couldn't be helped, and despite deadlines and planning, circumstances do happen, but seems like it happens about every year. And yes, every year I see all the other goons and friends having a party during 4th of July while I master a CD filled with outdated slide decks. Most of the slides I get are usually rushed, the speakers are nervous about them, they are going to be updated later, and it causes undue stress. Honestly, except for a few exceptions I get sub par results turned in, I have to correct many spelling errors, fix the slide formatting, etc. They are outdated to say the least about the slides I get, to the speakers they are last minute slides hurried along a month before they were ready for them.

I say they are outdated because they are, they are outdated by the time they reach my inbox. EVERY speaker, ( i can't find a single one otherwise) says "this isn't our final version", we have new material we are making, etc etc. The slides are ON our website every year are updated versions, the slides on the conference CD, Never ever ever match the slides the speakers are actually using. It would be wrong on us and for the attendees benefit, if we were to require Locked slides. Locked slides, some conferences do this, means you submit your slides a month early and you can't change it, at all, you can't change your material. This defeats the purpose of having speakers deliver the most researched, developed, current, accurate, materials to the attendees. The outdated slides on the CD continue to circulate and go on forever. I am fond of seeing the info from our con live and in the wild, but I much more prefer that info to be complete and accurate. Not to be egotistical or full ourselves over here at Defcon, but it'd be nice if the slides came from us and re-propagated in the wild as the final versions.

As for insuring the speakers will have prepared materials and won't flake on us, cancel, etc. It has 200% nothing to do with the conference CD. The reason we have less turnover rate, better schedule consistency and better prepared speakers is we : Don't take any BS. Background check our speakers. Follow up with speakers. Keep an eye on the possible "trouble makers". Have policies. We know what to expect and what to look for now. Dead Addict, Black Beetle and myself worked to make it better. We just grew up, making the speakers submit a slide deck didn't have anything to do with it.

Yes, embarrassing confession......a lot of people don't look at the con CD unless they are looking for a *hint* or to see if there is anything "Cool" on there. I've asked.

Now, to speak for the speakers. ....Here are their major complaints. ( I hear them EVERY year)

1. I don't want people looking at the slides BEFORE I talk, I don't want to give "it" away.
   
2. This isn't accurate, it seems a waste of time.
   
3. I won't have enough time to get this approved by my or X company before I publish.
   
4. There is still research being done and I think I will have ___0day/Exploit/Major Bug/Etc______ I don't want to publish in case we are wrong/right.
   
5. I'm going to need an extension or can it wait till the weekend is over?
   
6. I'm just going to tell them to go here and download the right slides.
   
7. What if I get a C&D & it becomes a "Cisco thing"?

If it was up to me, I would ask that they had the slides done one week before the con, and we put up the slide decks & white papers online the day of con. It's not hard to create the materials page for materials and have them up. By then the speakers should have their final slides done, fixed any last minute tweeks, etc. As for bandwidth.....we have PLENTY at con. Go to https://Defcon.org. Regardless I wish you would all get OFF your laptops at con and interact, but i digress. The material is online after the con, that's when the majority of people look at the slides, that's what I hear anyway. I get requests for slides for certain talks the next Monday after con, mostly because people want to show it at work. So why have them use the OUTDATED slides from the CD? I don't know. We could put so much cooler material on the CD other than slides. Every year It seems I have to tell Joe Grand to cut his extra info down in size on the CD because it wont fit, because I have 150 PDF's which have the priority. Wouldn't you rather Joe Grand, L0sT's hints, CTF, oCTF, Contest & Event extras on the CD than a PDF about Cyber war & kittens? Just sayin...

My vote, although may not be popular with my boss, is to do something new and to not waste the money on the con CD, which has proven itself to me to be unsatisfactory as a record keeping/documentation tool. It was fine back in the day when we could get these printed last second, or for example, when I burned 400-500 cds myself for Black Hat, cause we could wait till later to do it. But we can't now.

That's my opinion, and as I sat here typing it to you ~5 speakers sent in their slide decks. All with the notice, that these slides are barebones and effectively outdated. I know some are going to offer advice, maybe you are going to say, well it's your fault, you could give the speakers more time, you could wait longer to have the CD made, you could pick your speakers faster, etc, etc. until you are doing the job of one of a SMALL handful of people who sit at a desk all day, stress about the products arriving, the content being cool enough, the website awesome, and the myriad of other responsibilities think to yourself, "I don't know the half of it, I should just enjoy the outcome".

And Skoot is right....You won't believe how many LOL cat slides, This slide intentionally left blank, and jibber jabber nonsense that crosses my desk from time to time. We have the CD's up, you can watch & listen to the talks, we are talking about the possibility of streaming one day, I think that he has point. I do want to hear more from you guys on this subject, and I hope the other powers that be are listening, maybe we can change it for the better in the future.

Nice topic, A+++ will Troll again. :-)

[hydruh]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

I just want to toss in one more real person's experience.

I have only been to two DefCons, but I have been around the community for 20 years.

I am glad to have the CD because I can use it to get access to things AT THE CON, where I have little access to the internet. I won't hook my crappy Ubuntu 10.4 box to that net. I'll be pwned in 30 seconds. If I want to hack the badge an am not uberelite, I'll need an SDK. The CD has it.

When I get home, I hit the net, no big. At the con, the CD is really useful.

S

[HighWiz]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

I won't hook my crappy Ubuntu 10.4 box to that net. I'll be pwned in 30 seconds.

They are doing something about that this year, so you can feel a bit more confident in connecting to the net from Con.

http://www.defconnetworking.org/index.php?itemid=37

[Nikita]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

If I want to hack the badge an am not uberelite, I'll need an SDK. The CD has it.

When I get home, I hit the net, no big. At the con, the CD is really useful.

S

Yeah, but do you care about the presentations? I think that was the real question being asked here despite the question asked. I don't think anyone wants to get rid of the "Cool" stuff: Source, contest stuff, hints, music, past con audio, etc.

[sk00t]

Re: Does anybody REALLY want a DefCon CD anymore?

Yeah, let me clarify, the point isn't necessarily that the CD itself should go away. There are tons of neat things that can and should go on the CD, and if people enjoy a meaty piece of polycarbonate with the little smiley skeleton guy silkscreened on it, hey, so be it. In fact, if preso content were say, optional, that would clear some room for other cool stuff without forcing DCHQ to move to more-expensive DVD media.

My point, rather, is that a lot of folks spend a lot of time scrambling to either put together content or to assemble all of that content for what is rapidly becoming a redonkulous number of talks, and that I'm not sure how many people really look at it beforehand. I also like the idea of making the ISO public right around con time - it might even be possible to publish content on the DC WLAN, though I understand that's another can of worms.

Despite those who've weighed in on this thread, I'm still not sure I'm convinced that a high volume of con attendees really and truly read talk content off the CD. Personally, I rely on abstracts for the most part to decide what talks to attend....

I'm thinking I might stick a little easter egg in my submission, maybe with a little freebie, just to see how many responses I get. I'll be good and not do anything crafty with the PDF itself. =)