Press/Photos/Video restrictions

[astcell]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Everyone has gripes and concerns. I do not hold a cabinet office in DEF CON but I know that the entire experience is only as good as those in attendance. If I have a gripe I'll do what I can to improve the situation or at least make it painless. I'm sure the majority of us are that way. We WANT it to work. We WANT everyone to go home glad they had come. Whining to a Goon can get you ejected or worse. Besides, it's not even in our blood. We're here because we find ways to do what needs to be done. We're not going to stop now.

[renderman]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

DT: Re: Chris's comments, I think alot of this stuff caught those of us outside of the orginizers off guard because alot of it we did not know about till it was announced (i.e. Defcon Kids), or was outside of someones responsibility and attention (i.e. Chris)

As noted, complaining here and now will not change anything for this year. New hotel, some new events, lets see how it goes as a baseline. Who knows, it could all go very well.

I'm definatly in the camp with Chris if that was'nt clear.

Like I think I mentioend before, setting up a forum after con (which is usually done anyways) to discuss this further and not letting it die immediatly after con is a definate must. We've identified a problem that deserves discussion to find resolution or at least suggestions on improvements.

To what has been discussed and mentioned before, the tie in with the 'free' pass to Defcon with the Blackhat admission has been the source of some of the attendee shift mentioned. Dropping that, I'm certain that some percentage of people would not stick around for the weekend. If they are'nt willing to put up the (low) enterance fee otherwise, did they really want to be there in the first place?

The corporate sponsorship/contest thing. I think that some new guidelines for selection/approval should be drawn up where preference is given to non-corporate contests and those doing it for the fun of it (i.e. L0st). Anything that there is the expectation of being able to put up a company banner should be suspect. If a company truely wants to run a contest for the fun of it, they should be able to leave their company name out of it.

I am well known for contest participation. I got into them because they were a chance to do the things I could'nt do normally (usually logistical or legal reasons) and helped me find the gaps in my knowledge. I had more fun in the preperation and thinking up new ways to creativly interprete the rules in the months before hand than anything else. I am very indebted to Chris and everyone who ran the wireless contests and the other contests I participated in.

Rather than trying to be all things to all people and being more inclusive, or attempting to be more exclusive, we (mostly DT) should figure out what we are want to be, and leave it at that. Make it a 'here we are, take it or leave it'.

One issue that I think is in the back of the minds of alot of people but has been articulated has been one of money. Kind of a touchy thing but without knowing the cons finances, costs, etc, we have no idea what motives there may be for sponsorship, attendance growth, attendance fee's, etc. It's alot to ask and certainly not right away, but is it possible to get some of these numbers so we can have some context of whats possible. The 'own the con' talks that Bruce Potter does for Shmoocon are enlightening and something similar for Defcon may help this debate along.

On a final note;

DT: Thanks for listening to our issues and participating in the discussion. It would be alot easier to just take your ball and go home, but instead you are listening to us bitch. Thanks for letting us have a voice in things.

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Chris,

If you have had all these concerns it would be great to bring them up to me when you had them, or heard a rumor and you wanted to find out the facts, not here a few weeks before the con and after it has been festering for months.

I don't like commercial contests as a form of self promotion and if some snuck in this year then next year we will make sure there are none and it will be very clear.

That's a fair point and the blame for that lies squarely on me.
I do hope that the poor nature of how I delivered my concerns doesn't overshadow the points that I made though. I will do a better job of communicating this type of thing directly in the future.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Chris,

If you have had all these concerns it would be great to bring them up to me when you had them, or heard a rumor and you wanted to find out the facts, not here a few weeks before the con and after it has been festering for months.

I don't like commercial contests as a form of self promotion and if some snuck in this year then next year we will make sure there are none and it will be very clear.

[russ]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Wow. /facepalm

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

And this, actually, proves the point that I was making. Your kid learned all of this and had all of these experiences without the need for an organized and promoted DEF CON Kids area. I am 100% in favor of responsible parents bringing their kids. I'm just not in favor of a dedicated DEF CON Kids.

Fair enough. I appreciate your honesty and will let this thread get back to photos!

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

teaching kids to think on their own doesn't take attending defcon or access to resources. It can be done anywhere and is free.

We are probably in violation as this is not the place to debate Kids at Defcon but I do not believe Defcon is the answer but I do believe it is a great resource.

All who have stated you can learn on your own" are correct however there is nothing wrong with getting a helping hand. There are many advantages to being an apprentice to a more skilled tradesman.

Some of us are not as well educated as others and as one of the less educated I greatly appreciate people who are willing to help my kids in areas I can not!

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Wow,

While I was writing and posting roamer posted a very passionate and well written explanation of his views. I totally respect and hear everything he said, however I am really sad to hear his views on Defcon Kids.

I can only say that I believe my own kid has benefited greatly because of Defcon and he has learned things I could have never helped him with and because of the kindness of people like Major Malfunction talking to him and telling him to learn python, Riverside and the wall of sheep staff taking the time to show him how to sniff packets and total strangers taking the time to help him he has gained abilities and skills I could never have offered him.

As a parent I am so thankful that Defcon was there to help him where I could not!

And this, actually, proves the point that I was making. Your kid learned all of this and had all of these experiences without the need for an organized and promoted DEF CON Kids area. I am 100% in favor of responsible parents bringing their kids. I'm just not in favor of a dedicated DEF CON Kids.

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Wow,

While I was writing and posting roamer posted a very passionate and well written explanation of his views. I totally respect and hear everything he said, however I am really sad to hear his views on Defcon Kids.

I can only say that I believe my own kid has benefited greatly because of Defcon and he has learned things I could have never helped him with and because of the kindness of people like Major Malfunction talking to him and telling him to learn python, Riverside and the wall of sheep staff taking the time to show him how to sniff packets and total strangers taking the time to help him he has gained abilities and skills I could never have offered him.

As a parent I am so thankful that Defcon was there to help him where I could not!

[Anch]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

As an example, Many of you that have incredible technology skills yourself, may never realize how valuable Defcon for kids will be to that one kid that has the ability in technology but has parents who do not have the skills, knowledge and resources to help them succeed in this area.

My Dad was interested in computers when I was a kid, but didn't really know what he was doing. I learned from a desire and curiosity to understand how they worked. He didn't bring me to DefCon... he did encourage me to learn on my own, explore, tinker, take things apart etc. *THIS* curiosity and a desire to learn is what makes us hackers.

As roamer stated, there are classes at local hacker spaces, places that are much more kid friendly than vegas. Instead of exposing your kids to the hacker scene teach them to learn on their own, ask questions, be curious... Hacking isn't always about technology, it's really a way of thinking... teaching kids to think on their own doesn't take attending defcon or access to resources. It can be done anywhere and is free.

[astcell]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

It's not the photos. It's what they DO with the photos. You can take a simple photo that means nothing and caption it to scare the world about hackers. Show Mitnick at the hotel ATM machine and write a caption saying he is reprogramming the computers at Cheyenne Mountain and we will have new federal laws before Defcon is over.

I've taken tons of pics. I'd love to shoot CTF but even passing through the place with a camera gets stares and even a security escort now and then. One year I managed a photo that told it all, it was a bag of chips, some Red Bulls and a laptop. You do not necessarily need faces to tell a story.

Sometimes I raise my camera, just to prepare, and folks nearby freak out. They have no idea what I am about to shoot but they feel they need to defend what ever it may be. I do ask many times, offer a business card and let folks either have a copy of the pic for free or ask me to delete it once they see it. I've never been asked to delete for than four or fie images at a con, showing that most folks are cool once you are honest and up front with them. Sneakiness and subversiveness for the sake of a few photos does more harm than good. Over the years I have come to be trusted with my camera, I do not take pics when asked not to like in a party, and I provide free copies to folks who wish to remember the event.

The rules posted above are really easy. Don't be a jerk. If you do plan to be a jerk, here are then limits of your jerkiness. But if you are not an asshat to begin with, then you never really need to read the fine print.

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

As an example, Many of you that have incredible technology skills yourself, may never realize how valuable Defcon for kids will be to that one kid that has the ability in technology but has parents who do not have the skills, knowledge and resources to help them succeed in this area.

Wait, these parents don't have the resources to drive their kids to the local hackerspace for a class or two but they have the resources for a family vacation to Vegas, at least 2 badges, and hotel cost? That argument makes no sense. Also, as has been pointed out over and over and over again NO ONE is saying kids shouldn't be allowed to come to and go to as many talks as they want. But that isn't the same as providing and promoting a kids only area that many, myself included, think will end up turning into DEF CON daycare.

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I know DT said he did not want to hear from the so called B-side, however in defense of a B point of view I would just like to say.

(Stepping up on soap Box)

First I do not believe any of the comments about change was for the endless promotion of driving masses of asses through the Def Con (Defcon) doors. I believe we want people that have a passionate desire (for whatever reason, phones, computers, locks, social engineering, etc..) in the Hacker philosophy to be welcome and have access to the incredible resources Def Con (Defcon) makes available.

Second my reason and desire to see Defcon evolve and be more accessible to newbies and younger kids is because I see such a great value and resource in Def Con (Defcon) that I think it should be accessible to many more people.

As an example, Many of you that have incredible technology skills yourself, may never realize how valuable Defcon for kids will be to that one kid that has the ability in technology but has parents who do not have the skills, knowledge and resources to help them succeed in this area.

There are many things that suck about getting old, but one great thing we elders get is experience from our short sightedness of years past and another is we lose our egos and fears about saying things because others will think less of us or because it may sound silly to some or be easy prey for nasty remarks.

I'm telling you do not be short sighted. Look forward not back!

(Stepping away from soap Box)

[kallahar]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

100% agree. If there were a poll option for "roamer is right" I'd vote for that one. Lose the workshops, kidcon, excess press, and corporate sponsorship. Get back to the volunteer roots. More people != "better" defcon. The people that are part of our community already know about defcon and don't need advertisements (ie, every hacker group asks its members "are you going to defcon?")

Kallahar

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

DT,

I don't think it's realistic to get "back" to an attendee base small enough to fit in a place like the Alexis Park. People may not remember, but our last year at the AP when you announced that we were moving to the Riv the cheers in that room were deafening. We had grown out of the AP by the second year there I think. People forget the frustrations of being turned away from talks on a regular basis, sitting (or speaking) in that hot ass tent on the roof or in the parking lot.

Also, the two options you mentioned (as not wanting to do) wouldn't fix the problem. Raising the price significantly wouldn't get the core attendee base to be the only people at DC, it would probably mean there were fewer people, yes, but the people that came wouldn't be the ones "Group A" wants there either. Similar problem with pre-reg. Although I am not against Pre-Reg per se I have had this discussion quite a bit with the Shmoo guys because I hate their system...but I don't know a better one so that really wouldn't solve the problem.

What might help though is to stop mainstreaming events. By that I mean why in the world are we trying DEF CON Kids? I would call this event polarizing, except it isn't. There is a very small group of people that think it's a good idea and a GIANT group of folks that think it's the single worst idea we've come up with at DEF CON. I won't speak for others, but I will say that *I* personally fall into that giant group that hates the idea.

Further evidence of "mainstreaming" the Con that frustrates some of us that have been attending forever (or in my case working/organizing) is the contests this year. I don't mean to ambush the contest staff because I haven't talked to them about this personally so I feel a bit bad about that, but what is the deal with the Corporate contests? I don't mean sponsors, we've had those for a long time with contests so that people could give good prizes. Whether that's good or bad is a different discussion I think. But CORE is running at least 2 contests this year, I have heard that SANS has their hands in the Forensics contest (that may or may not be true, but it's what I've heard) and that whoever is running that one has some ridiculous intellectual property shit going on with it basically assigning all the rights on shit you do to them (Again, take all that with a grain of salt because I haven't investigated the truthfulness, but it's rumor. If I've heard it, attendees have heard it).

Dial back the charity shit. I'm all for helping out a good cause but is there ANYTHING you can do at DEF CON anymore without EFF getting a piece of it. I am not the person that came up with the nickname EFF CON, but I certainly agree with the sentiment. Dunk tank was a cool idea. EVERYTHING going to charity starts to grate on nerves. (Ok, that last one probably wasn't the best example of how to make Group A happier but I figured I'd say it while I had your attention )

What's the deal with the workshops. Renderman characterized it best. Those of us that have been doing impromptu classes, shelling out our/their own cash to run contests, villages, parties, etc do take those workshops as a slap in the face. Some folks feel suckered and I think with good reason. It's not right. The villages are a great example. We have basically let them give away info for free, running classes and events all day long to make DEF CON better and not only have we not paid them but we've CHARGED them to sell stuff (that the people attending their villages want/need to participate). I'd be pissed too.

Unlike some folks who don't have the opportunity to communicate with you as regularly as I do, I KNOW that you want to do what's best for DEF CON. I know that you care. I know you aren't asking for our feedback as just lip service and that's why I have been brutally honest in this post about my feelings on some of these issues whereas I've been pretty silent, especially on the forums, about my disagreement with the direction some things have taken, especially this year. I'm glad you asked though. I think most of us that have been coming to DEF CON forever and remember "the old days" don't expect it to go back to the way it was. But we don't want it to turn into Black Hat either and from our perspective it's headed that way.

Thanks for listening.

Chris

I miss the old days as well, but we don't do much if any DEF CON promotion, relying on word of mouth and the news articles people write about it to spread the word. We don't have sponsors who would try to promote it on our behalf to increase the value of their sponsorship, mailing lists to spam, and I don't even post to usenet or mailing lists much at all.

Short of going to a pre-registration with limited tickets nightmare it is not clear to me how we get people to stop attending short of raising the price too much, selecting dull sounding talks, no real contests. These moves would alter the experience and not be what the core attendees want I am guessing.

I would love to hear so thoughts on how we would get from wherever we are to where the "A" or "B" camp wants us.

Well, I take back the "B" camp part. I know how we could promote more, get sponsors like other hacker cons, pass out flyers at other events, etc, to mainstream even more. For this discussion I'm not interested in that. Talk to me more about what "A" envisions.