Press/Photos/Video restrictions

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I miss the old days as well, but we don't do much if any DEF CON promotion, relying on word of mouth and the news articles people write about it to spread the word. We don't have sponsors who would try to promote it on our behalf to increase the value of their sponsorship, mailing lists to spam, and I don't even post to usenet or mailing lists much at all.

Short of going to a pre-registration with limited tickets nightmare it is not clear to me how we get people to stop attending short of raising the price too much, selecting dull sounding talks, no real contests. These moves would alter the experience and not be what the core attendees want I am guessing.

I would love to hear so thoughts on how we would get from wherever we are to where the "A" or "B" camp wants us.

Well, I take back the "B" camp part. I know how we could promote more, get sponsors like other hacker cons, pass out flyers at other events, etc, to mainstream even more. For this discussion I'm not interested in that. Talk to me more about what "A" envisions.

[LosT]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

You forgot camp D: I'd just like to see some of con besides the contest area ;)

[Tacitus]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

1. "Let's have it more 'underground' again. Let's stop it expanding and drawing in thousands and thousands of attendees. Let's have the con be more like it was at the AP, let's focus more on the closer knit social aspect of things and the people".
   
2. "Let's expand things more and more. Let's make the con more "mainstream" and bring in as many attendees as possible."

Using a few of the recent threads¹ on the forums as examples: In as far as strong advocates for certain perspective I would generally put Kallahar & Tacitus in Group A and Nikita and Bbox in Group B.

Camp C - people who miss the older days, don't like to see more "mainstreaming" of the con, but don't expect us to downsize and wind up back at the Alexis Park. folk like this don't realistically expect DEFCON to revert, but they don't see strong reasons for policy changes that encourage more change away from the past.

I don't know if I'd put myself fully in group A. Maybe Deviant offers a option of C that is more appealing.

I miss the "old" days, whatever that is, But I have no problem with Defcon growing if people want it to grow. I just think it is "different" than the Defcon that I first went to (DC10) but then again, I know people would say DC10 is a lot different than DC5 was.

Stuff changes, I get that... Every Defcon I've been to I have had a fun time, and each time it has been different. There are things I liked and didn't like about Defcon at the AP, at the Riv, and i'm sure ill think the same about the Rio, but I like Defcon enough to be vocal about it. Am I wrong? Maybe. Do I know the answers? No... but that's why I'm posting. Maybe I hope something can grow out of this discussion, maybe not. Maybe all this growth is a good thing, maybe Defcon gets so big to the point where it takes over 100% of the Rio rooms and we have room parties like at the AP (according to wikipedia 2,522 rooms at the Rio.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

i think HighWiz is terrific for bringing light to this topic that underlies a lot of the recent discussions. naturally, we're too close to DEFCON for anything major to shift this year, but i think it's good to have this in mind and i look forward to seeing how the talks continue after this summer.

that said, i think there is a third camp... or at least a third line of direction the con could take:

Camp C - people who miss the older days, don't like to see more "mainstreaming" of the con, but don't expect us to downsize and wind up back at the Alexis Park. folk like this don't realistically expect DEFCON to revert, but they don't see strong reasons for policy changes that encourage more change away from the past.

i am surely philosophically aligned with a lot of the Camp A crowd, but i am sympathetic to Camp C and think it's likely the course of action with the most potential to realistically please the most folk.

[HighWiz]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I think these lines of questions/thoughts are probably better served in their own space [since it's kinda off-topic (to photo policy)], but a lot of the divergent points of view I see being expressed now (in multiple threads/topics) are where is DefCon headed and where should it be [headed]?

In this post, I'm not trying to single anyone out, but rather show the divergent points of view. I'm also not trying to put any words in anyone's mouth, so if I missed your POV entirely, let me know.


I think (possibly) DT wants DefCon to end up being everything to everyone involved and making all parties "happy". He has to walk the tight rope of not pissing off either camp; while still making sure he doesn't lose money on DefCon. Even within those camps you have the people who have their opinions, but will ultimately go with the flow and then you have the hardliners. So I don't envy him, in those regards. Especially since the hardliners on both sides of aisle have the ability to influence their own respective groups.


So to define the camps, you have the:

1. "Let's have it more 'underground' again. Let's stop it expanding and drawing in thousands and thousands of attendees. Let's have the con be more like it was at the AP, let's focus more on the closer knit social aspect of things and the people".
   
2. "Let's expand things more and more. Let's make the con more "mainstream" and bring in as many attendees as possible."

Using a few of the recent threads¹ on the forums as examples: In as far as strong advocates for certain perspective I would generally put Kallahar & Tacitus in Group A and Nikita and Bbox in Group B.

Somewhere below the "Strong Advocates" but still in the specific groupings I would say that Deviant, Roamer, many (but not all) of the goons, and generally a large amount of people who were around/involved Pre-Rivieria would be Camp A. Whereas Countless (non forum using) attendees (5000+!?!?) are in Camp B.


It's seems there's a hard blow back in regards to many Events/Policies this year. So really, this is the topic I believe is lurking in the background.

Someone will surely get pissed off at me, for saying the above. But I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about the real underlying issue that keeps cropping up in multiple threads.

I'm not saying one view is correct or better than the other, but it's the real issue (as far as I see it).


¹ I used various threads in the following sub-forums to draw my conclusion on stances : Forum Meet, DefCon Kids, Pre-DefCon, DefCon Workshops and this one.

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

If there's one thing that these pictures made absolutely clear for me it's that I really miss the AP.

BTW, I have no issue with the pic of me. I've never had a problem with being photographed at Con and usually pose if someone asks (sure...it's a pose with a middle finger but a pose nonetheless).

Lots of shit...

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Just as kind of an academic self-study, i decided to go through all of my galleries from past DEFCON events where i took photos, in order to see how well i adhered to the standards i would hope to see imposed on others.

At first, i started to worry that i was being a hypocrite... as there are a few times that i took crowd shots. Then i started seeing that it was when i was very new to the scene and that i learned the community standards rather quickly. Still, i think that my galleries can serve up some rather useful example images, "what if" questions, and devil's advocate arguments...

DC9
i clearly took three photos of crowds at this first DEFCON where i had my camera...

1. i liked this shirt and snapped a pic. there are folk in the background, however. they're kind of distant and not clear... still, i wouldn't do that nowadays.

2. i think i accidentally took this shot while drunk. but i left it in the gallery. perhaps i should have just dropped it.

3. here's a typical example of a pool shot. the rest of the scene was empty, but easily others could have been behind on chairs or in the water. what then?

DC10
a notion to consider...

4. when simple nomad and renderman or simple nomad and i were in these photos, it was in the chillout area. the folk behind us aren't clear really... but should we have put our backs to a wall? nowadays, i would likely do that.

DC11
a few pretty good examples here...

5. contests being set up (by a very young KaiGoth and Doc!) with people standing around.

6. what about the vendor room? we haven't talked about that here.

7. an old forum meet photo, when Gasden had long hair! i don't know if i got permission or not, seemed like a spontaneous shot.

8. highly controversial... shot of that year's hot tub orgy. i did not actually take this photo, but later copied the file from another DEFCON gallery when i was attempting to show some people the "unbridled" atmosphere from the earlier cons at the Alexis Park.

DC12
pool push example...

9. ashley schwartau after a pool push... didn't ask, just kind of snapped it. what about her right to privacy? what about the others around her? are outdoor areas to be considered "general chillout" areas?

DC13
by now i knew plenty of people and had a much better notion of how to photo or not photo at DEFCON. almost all of my shots came from the Beer Cooling event, etc.

10. DC702 team, other folk in background

11. noid pouring Liquid N2 into a pool, other folk in background

12. security showing up, heh.

DC14
basically all of my photos that year were at beer cooling, a designated event...

13. renderman, with other folk in the background

14. roamer in a photo, not a contestant... just standing nearby

15. other folk in the background at Beer Cooling, pretty sure they weren't expecting to be photo'd

DC15
almost all just photos from the BBQ etc..

16. example of folk in the background of a shot

DC16
a number of hard calls...

17. a shot when folk were eating. did i ask everyone at the table? not easy to get up and walk away if you aren't into photos.

18. BBQ appearing again... surely i didn't ask all the folk you see scattered around behind Joia... not sure if i even asked her permission, either.

19. awesome crowd shot... example of what i hope would always be ok at DEFCON, at least at an event like the BBQ. anyone who didn't want their face in this long distance shot just held the bird up over their eyes.

20. example of a photo where the background is dark... what about any people who are there? can't really see them, but they might object when they saw the flash.

21. another dark background example... who thinks this is ok to photograph like that?

22. some party, but people in background, though. who thinks this is ok?

DC17
let's see what we have here...

23. photo taken at a private party, but no one else is in the image. who thinks that is ok? who thinks it's bad form to take the camera out at all there?

24. another party shot, this time with some slight faces behind

25. this is how i try to do crowd shots, even at contests and events

DC18
rounding it out with some from last year...

26. DC Shoot - a shooter from behind. is this anonymous? i mean, if you know her, you clearly know who this is.

27. a few shooters from behind... seems more vague and anonymous to me, but others may disagree.

28. a large crowd shot at the Beer Cooling event. this is a"contest and event" happening, but in a semi-public place. maybe i should have been more careful.

29. a large crowded shot during Gringo Warrior. yes, it's the contest and event room... so, would everyone be ok if they wound up in a photo like this simply because they were in that room?


phew, ok... that's a lot of links. i hardly think folk will post about all of them... but maybe a few of these examples will generate some good chatter.

[kallahar]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

When I was running the robot contest yeah, everyone wanted photos and everyone expected their photos to be taken. So I'd be totally fine with the rule "Photos/Video/Audio allowed in contest area only - NOWHERE ELSE"

For attendees taking the occasional photo, if goons see them they can tell them to stop. If they're a dick, they get bounced. Same goes for press - they get a warning, if they ignore it then they get bounced out of con. The Goons can easily handle this responsibility because the "press" usually stand out like a sore thumb (they also demand to skip the lines that regular attendees have to stand in).

If an attendee takes a few photos for his facebook page, not a big deal. If the "press" takes photo/video/audio then they're often looking for an "angle", some press is good, some is bad. We have no idea if the press is trying to "out" someone or if they're just doing a fluff piece.

Also agree with Tacitus - a "bigger" defcon doesn't benefit me, I'd rather have us return to being "underground" rather than attracting anyone who thinks computers are cool.

Kallahar

[arahel_jazz]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

The first rule of being incognito is to hide in plain sight. Throwing a red sticker on to keep people from taking your picture just screams "I am trying to hide - take my picture please".

I don't recommend it. If you don't want to be photographed, you should be personally responsible for keeping yourself out of harms way. That includes people like me that are horribly self-conscious about their appearance. Why do you think I wear that riddiculous hat?

My $.02 would be as follows:
- Unrestricted (but be polite) in all public areas, (hallways, Chill out, contest area, vendor area, Vegas 2.0,)
- Unrestricted (but be polite) in all talks. No flash photography so it doesn't screw up the presenters and video.
- Restricted in CTF. Makes sense and keeps a bit of the "mystery/hot secret" vibe going.
- Highly Restricted in DefConKids area - I agree with the idea of not taking pictures of minors. However - we may want to orchestrate a controlled photo op because DCK is such a ground-breaking (and controversial in the mainstream) event.

The camel's nose is already in the tent and he's eating your ice cream folks. The Rio is a much larger facility for the Goons to cover. They are not going to be able to babysit camera crews. It is also a much more attractive place for the media to be (more mainstream than AP or Rio). The "good old days" of being totally anonymous are gone.

By the way - smile when you walk around the Rio - your image is being taken by the Rio security camera system anyway. It would be fun to find out if they are using facial recognition, but I doubt the Rio would disclose that to us.

It should be made clear during opening remarks that your picture may be taken at just about any time by anyone (including hotel security). The best defense would be to be aware and if someone points a camera directly at you, ask them nicely to not take/publish your image.

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I have avoided this thread for the most part because my opinion hasn't changed one bit since last year when this came up and I spewed forth my opinion quite a bit.

That said, I do want to restate my opinion on one piece (which appears to have been echoed by at least a couple of other people).

I have no issue with the press and/or attendees being allowed to take pictures if that's the policy we are going with. I have a HUGE issue with CTF being exempt. I don't understand why every point that has been made about why CTF somehow gets special treatment doesn't apply to <insert other contest participants here> or <insert joe hacker here>. If we have made the conscious decision that we want the press to do stories with pictures and spread the gospel of DEF CON then why would CTF be exempt from that? Didn't make sense last year. Doesn't make sense this year. I find it quite frustrating to basically tell someone that has, for example, contributed their time, money, and effort to DEF CON for years that their opinion is invalid because they aren't the chosen ones that participate in CTF and can therefore have their identities and image protected while you should suck it up and realize we live in a world where everything is photographed.

I'll disagree with our press policy until this inequity is addressed.

[Tacitus]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

So, I have to ask, why does Defcon want more publicity? Is it to get more attendees? Defcon seems to easily fill whatever hotel it is in, so does there need to be more? Nikita claims 10k+ (attendees) is the goal to have 15k? 20k? To what end? If it is spreading and increasing knowledge, I am all for that. If it is socializing with people you only talk to online the other 51 weeks a year, I am all for that

But at what point is Defcon too big? I know a lot of "old-timers" tend to bemoan shift in community since the move from the A.P. - Defcon is not so much a "wander around and hang out by pool 2 as you go between parties at night and socialize" and more of a "go to talks during the day, try to get invited to a private party at night" kind of thing.

I remember when Defcon called itself "underground"

Taking a look at the page <title> tags on Defcon's main page shows an evolution

DC19- The Hacker Community's Foremost Social Network.
DC18- Hacking Conference
DC17 - 17 Hacking Conference
DC16- Real Time Social Networking for Ninjas
DC15- the Largest Underground Hacking Convention in the World


The meta description is still: "Started in 1992 by the Dark Tangent, DEFCON is the world's longest running and largest underground hacking conference."


So I ask this... with these press rules- wanting the press to come and take pictures of us and write about us, with experimenting with things like Defcon Kids and separate pay events like the workshops, is Defcon still "underground"? Was it ever? Do the Defcon organizers want it to be? What does Defcon gain by being "underground" or not? How does not being "underground" affect the community?

[HighWiz]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

in short its policy is grandfathered in. Press was NEVER allowed to photograph in the CTF room and neither is anyone else. They people in CTF room are doing things...well...a little bit more devious in the eyes of narrowminded people. A photo of a guy hacking away in the game could make his boss mad. Also, it's distracting and the photos could ( well used to be you sent in spies) be used to give another team an advantage, or ruin something, some sort of planning, etc. Not to say that is entirely the reason, but CTF has always been given more seclusion from prying eyes, loiters, photographers, etc.

Also, they are an invite only game. Its participants are in a private game and the teams want privacy, it's a little bit expected as part of the game.

<snip>

What other compromises could we come up with? How can we work it so that those who want photos in public can and those who want privacy can, without removing either rights, but enforcing a written rule we can go to. If we had a creative way to balance the two, or a compromise from you guys it could work out theoretically. So....ideas? Instead of banning it, how do we do it responsibly?

Looking over my posts, one of the things I believe I wasn't clear on is this:

As far as the photos goes, I believe that whatever policy you apply to the "media/press" should be applied to the attendees as well and vice versa. If you're going to let someone take pictures of contests XYZ as a normal attendee, then the press should have the same right. In essence, there should be one single photo policy. Not one policy for attendees and one policy for press.

Further, I will say that Nikita does have a very valid point in as far as the contests/events/speaking goes. If you're participating in anything on that level, then you should be aware that your photo will be taking. End of story. I mean, shit... What happens if you win? You may go up on stage at the closing ceremonies (where everyone will take your picture). The only thing I will disagree with, is that the same should go for CTF (but, we'll probably have to agree to disagree on that point).

Perhaps the happy medium is/will be location based. e.g. (Contests Room: fair game. Chill out space: not fair game, or something akin to that.) It's not the ideal solution for either party (Free for all/No Photos), but it's a possible middle ground. Give the press certain space in the contest area where they can do their stories/give their interviews and clearly designate that place (then people are aware that if they walk HERE, they are in direct shot of the camera and may be in the background). Will everybody like it? No. But it may be the best compromise.

As for still photography, if you're going to let ZeroCool take a photo AcidBurn in the chillout space or a corridor, then you need to let wired magazine do that same.

Green ok to photograph, Red do not ever photograph and Yellow please ask first.

Even if everyone used a yellow tag at the very least it would make others aware of the importance of asking a user first. It would also let reporters identify people to keep away from (RED) and people to approach (Green).

Now I know people are thinking how much everyone hates to be classified but come on, most people I come in contact classify themselves by wearing a specific Marker (think religious symbols, Tattoos, a specific style of dress, Organizational badges like Masonic rings or Military branch affiliations)

So if all it would take is a small color tag somewhere on the badge (Lost [Boy] can probably make this into part of the Badge fun) it could show the thousands of attendees that Defcon is concerned about privacy but allows its community to choose how to be photographed.

It may be silly, but everyone has a chance to get what they want and it would not be all that invasive.

Eh, while an interesting idea. I don't really see that working out. But hey, maybe Nikita/DT/Senior Staff will love it.

https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html


When I asked about use in private, I was told the preference was "DEF CON" then DEFCON" then "Defcon" but of all the things to worry about, it wasn't something to enforce on the forums.

DEF CON is the trademark. DefCon (for example) is my preferred usage.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

P.S. Could someone explain to me is it DEFCON or DEF CON? I see a lot of my swag from the con is DEFCON but Nikita and DT often refer in writing to it as DEF CON. Thanks

https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-faq/dc-faq.html

Where did the name come from?

The short answer is a combination of places. There as a SummerCon in the summer, a HoHoCon in the winter, a PumpCon during Halloween, etc. I didn't want any association with a time of year. If you are a Phreak, or just use your phone a lot you'll notes "DEF" is #3 on the phone. If you are into military lingo DEF CON is short for "Defense Condition." Now being a fan of the movie War Games I took note that the main character, David Lightman, lived in Seattle, as I do, and chose to nuke Las Vegas with W.O.P.R. when given the chance. Well I knew I was doing a con in Vegas, so it all just sort of worked out.

When I asked about use in private, I was told the preference was "DEF CON" then DEFCON" then "Defcon" but of all the things to worry about, it wasn't something to enforce on the forums.

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I see 2 issues, first the crowd shots. How about a compromise, why not have the (Example) main hallways and rooms no crowd shots but designate the corridor marked Lambada, Conga and Tango that is outside the press room anyway open for crowd shots and activity interviews. In this example at most people entering track 3 & 4 will be affected and it is a short enough area if people are concerned to keep their heads down.

Now the 2nd issue are the private shots. I have seen a few really bad situations that could have been easily avoided if the picture taker would have just asked the person first. All ill feelings would have been avoided. Now I know people are going to laugh and make silly comments about my next statement but...

Why not have some small designator to wear in a specific spot that gives people an understanding on where you stand on being photographed. For the Defcon Forum Meet this year I have silly stick-on tags that say things like "Talk to me", "Go Away", and varies combinations. The stickers of People willing to talk with anyone are green in color, the ones wanting not to talk with anyone they do not know are red and I have every combination in between. Now with the forum meet sticker I made them a bit larger and have some funky sayings for a fun silly icebreaker type effect but for being photographed or not you could have 3 very small markers, Green ok to photograph, Red do not ever photograph and Yellow please ask first.

Even if everyone used a yellow tag at the very least it would make others aware of the importance of asking a user first. It would also let reporters identify people to keep away from (RED) and people to approach (Green).

Now I know people are thinking how much everyone hates to be classified but come on, most people I come in contact classify themselves by wearing a specific Marker (think religious symbols, Tattoos, a specific style of dress, Organizational badges like Masonic rings or Military branch affiliations)

So if all it would take is a small color tag somewhere on the badge (Lost [Boy] can probably make this into part of the Badge fun) it could show the thousands of attendees that Defcon is concerned about privacy but allows its community to choose how to be photographed.

It may be silly, but everyone has a chance to get what they want and it would not be all that invasive.

P.S. Could someone explain to me is it DEFCON or DEF CON? I see a lot of my swag from the con is DEFCON but Nikita and DT often refer in writing to it as DEF CON. Thanks

[Nikita]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Summary:

Why is (?was?) the CTF room an exception? Will it be an exception this year?

The reason I ask, is for all of the reasons listed as arguments in favor of allowing photography everywhere at Defcon, if the reasons are meaningful and justify the decision everywhere else where attendee privacy is concerned, why don't these same reasons hold as much merit in the CTF room? And then the question becomes, "why are the counter-arguments for 'no photography' in the CTF room more meaningful for CTF Defcon people than for all other Defcon people?" This becomes an item of contention, with favorable treatment to some, but not others. (I don't expect you to answer this one. For all I know, we inherited this constraint/requirement, or it was imposed from another agreement, or grandfather-clause.)

You know me well enough to know I am not blaming you for this, or even assuming that you set these policies; don't kill the messenger. You are the first person to reply with a good list of reasons why a decision was made, so I say Thanks for that! Volunteering such information on, "why things are the way they are," should be supported.


.

in short its policy is grandfathered in. Press was NEVER allowed to photograph in the CTF room and neither is anyone else. They people in CTF room are doing things...well...a little bit more devious in the eyes of narrowminded people. A photo of a guy hacking away in the game could make his boss mad. Also, it's distracting and the photos could ( well used to be you sent in spies) be used to give another team an advantage, or ruin something, some sort of planning, etc. Not to say that is entirely the reason, but CTF has always been given more seclusion from prying eyes, loiters, photographers, etc.

Also, they are an invite only game. Its participants are in a private game and the teams want privacy, it's a little bit expected as part of the game.

The same is for DEF CON Kids, As it's being run more like a private event, it is an event for minors and minors are not allowed to be photographed without parents permission, except in public ( by law) however the rules are laid out that state not to be a menace, not to take someone's photo when they ask you not to, and that we reserve the right to discretion and to revoke it at any point. If you're being a jerk about it, then GTFO. Basically, I would consider that to be a private event and the organizers have the right to let in who they want ( minors ) and refuse entry to those they dont. It would be considered outside the badged areas and honestly the goons around, or any goon around for that matter would possess the skills to determine if you were being a jerk or perv and tell you stop and enforce the rules.

Hey thanks for the support, that is the rules we all came together and decided on but I'm not the one who made them and approved them to start using.

The main argument was why is it ok for attendees to go around filming and taking pictures ( and personally I have told many attendee to stop and been told to f-myself) and we tell the press who if we were a little more open with we might get some good press and put a good image on hackers to go piss off. We got a lot of complaints actually, and also..it was hard for DEF CON to get any good photos too.

I'll be honest here, we ( DEF CON ) would like to get more photos of cool things happening and people doing stuff. We figured, ( a collective we) That if you were participating in a public contest or game that put you on display, then your expectation of not being in the spotlight and having privacy is gone. So therefore if I jump up and play a game or enter gringo warrior, i don't have the right to expect people not to photograph me, despite the fact that i would HATE to have my photo taken.

I don't want my picture taken. I'm extremely self conscious, shy and I do not like how I look in photos. Since the baby this is even more so, in fact I almost didn't want to come to the show this year because I'd feel shameful if someone took my picture with the extra baby weight. So, if anyone would like photography BANNED at defcon, it would be me. But I feel that is completely unfair and isolates us. There are a lot of cool things happening that we should document and have cool pictures off. Things that don't involve drinking and strippers. Rather robots, locks,arduinos, neon lights and the occasional codpeice.


Also, I meant the 5% of you on the forums out of the 10k of attendees. I know most of you want to ban public photos based on the voting. Jeff is a fair person, I'm sure he will do what he can to find a balance.

I liked the idea someone mentioned about press having a buffer between public expressway and people who don't want to be in a crowd shot. Perhaps we tell them that if they want to do a public report we put up cones that basically would have it be like a caution reporter filming barrier. It's just an idea, but it could definitely prevent people from walking in front of the camera by accident. The problem with the interview room is they want cool things going on behind them. Stories with a beige wall and no interesting people and cool blinkie lights, well, those stories don't make the evening news sorry to say. The reporter don't bother and all we really get are written articles. It's not like we NEED more people or NEED more advertisement, but it doesn't hurt. It wouldn't hurt to have a fun positive image, it wouldnt hurt to show that we have a lot more going on than hacking computers and cell phones, I'd like to get some more people from other groups into our little defcon clique, but that's just me. I'd love some more makers and gamers.

What other compromises could we come up with? How can we work it so that those who want photos in public can and those who want privacy can, without removing either rights, but enforcing a written rule we can go to. If we had a creative way to balance the two, or a compromise from you guys it could work out theoretically. So....ideas? Instead of banning it, how do we do it responsibly?

Really really really tired, so i'm sorry for the mess and typos.