Press/Photos/Video restrictions

[Bbox]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

And this, actually, proves the point that I was making. Your kid learned all of this and had all of these experiences without the need for an organized and promoted DEF CON Kids area. I am 100% in favor of responsible parents bringing their kids. I'm just not in favor of a dedicated DEF CON Kids.

Fair enough. I appreciate your honesty and will let this thread get back to photos!

[russ]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Wow. /facepalm

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Chris,

If you have had all these concerns it would be great to bring them up to me when you had them, or heard a rumor and you wanted to find out the facts, not here a few weeks before the con and after it has been festering for months.

I don't like commercial contests as a form of self promotion and if some snuck in this year then next year we will make sure there are none and it will be very clear.

[Chris]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Chris,

If you have had all these concerns it would be great to bring them up to me when you had them, or heard a rumor and you wanted to find out the facts, not here a few weeks before the con and after it has been festering for months.

I don't like commercial contests as a form of self promotion and if some snuck in this year then next year we will make sure there are none and it will be very clear.

That's a fair point and the blame for that lies squarely on me.
I do hope that the poor nature of how I delivered my concerns doesn't overshadow the points that I made though. I will do a better job of communicating this type of thing directly in the future.

[renderman]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

DT: Re: Chris's comments, I think alot of this stuff caught those of us outside of the orginizers off guard because alot of it we did not know about till it was announced (i.e. Defcon Kids), or was outside of someones responsibility and attention (i.e. Chris)

As noted, complaining here and now will not change anything for this year. New hotel, some new events, lets see how it goes as a baseline. Who knows, it could all go very well.

I'm definatly in the camp with Chris if that was'nt clear.

Like I think I mentioend before, setting up a forum after con (which is usually done anyways) to discuss this further and not letting it die immediatly after con is a definate must. We've identified a problem that deserves discussion to find resolution or at least suggestions on improvements.

To what has been discussed and mentioned before, the tie in with the 'free' pass to Defcon with the Blackhat admission has been the source of some of the attendee shift mentioned. Dropping that, I'm certain that some percentage of people would not stick around for the weekend. If they are'nt willing to put up the (low) enterance fee otherwise, did they really want to be there in the first place?

The corporate sponsorship/contest thing. I think that some new guidelines for selection/approval should be drawn up where preference is given to non-corporate contests and those doing it for the fun of it (i.e. L0st). Anything that there is the expectation of being able to put up a company banner should be suspect. If a company truely wants to run a contest for the fun of it, they should be able to leave their company name out of it.

I am well known for contest participation. I got into them because they were a chance to do the things I could'nt do normally (usually logistical or legal reasons) and helped me find the gaps in my knowledge. I had more fun in the preperation and thinking up new ways to creativly interprete the rules in the months before hand than anything else. I am very indebted to Chris and everyone who ran the wireless contests and the other contests I participated in.

Rather than trying to be all things to all people and being more inclusive, or attempting to be more exclusive, we (mostly DT) should figure out what we are want to be, and leave it at that. Make it a 'here we are, take it or leave it'.

One issue that I think is in the back of the minds of alot of people but has been articulated has been one of money. Kind of a touchy thing but without knowing the cons finances, costs, etc, we have no idea what motives there may be for sponsorship, attendance growth, attendance fee's, etc. It's alot to ask and certainly not right away, but is it possible to get some of these numbers so we can have some context of whats possible. The 'own the con' talks that Bruce Potter does for Shmoocon are enlightening and something similar for Defcon may help this debate along.

On a final note;

DT: Thanks for listening to our issues and participating in the discussion. It would be alot easier to just take your ball and go home, but instead you are listening to us bitch. Thanks for letting us have a voice in things.

[astcell]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Everyone has gripes and concerns. I do not hold a cabinet office in DEF CON but I know that the entire experience is only as good as those in attendance. If I have a gripe I'll do what I can to improve the situation or at least make it painless. I'm sure the majority of us are that way. We WANT it to work. We WANT everyone to go home glad they had come. Whining to a Goon can get you ejected or worse. Besides, it's not even in our blood. We're here because we find ways to do what needs to be done. We're not going to stop now.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Like I think I mentioend before, setting up a forum after con (which is usually done anyways) to discuss this further and not letting it die immediatly after con is a definate must. We've identified a problem that deserves discussion to find resolution or at least suggestions on improvements.

We can do that. Also, when I make the new "Defcon 19 and Beyond" forum (for content during Defcon 19 and beyond) I copy recently active threads forward to the new forum, and ask if any other threads should be copied forward before the "Defcon 19 Planning" forum is closed. I'll also sometimes add a post at the end of the old thread to point to the new thread to continue conversation/discussion.

If I don't remember, you or anyone else should please remind me so this conversation and thread can be copied forward.

Thanks!

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

That's a fair point and the blame for that lies squarely on me.
I do hope that the poor nature of how I delivered my concerns doesn't overshadow the points that I made though. I will do a better job of communicating this type of thing directly in the future.

I am right there with you on your concerns, they are many of mine as well. The problem is if you are encouraging community participation it gets hard to say no to things the community wants to do. Want to do a kid con? Ok, we have some space, but it is not an official event. If it fails we will try something else with the space.

Last year we tried something new with the picture policy, and now weeks before the event almost a year later it is bubbling up to be a problem. We still have time to get a croup consensus on any changes we want to make, but the reasons need to be well thought out.

On the no pictures in the CTF area I believe it is mostly to prevent teams watching other teams, but maybe that would be a nice new dynamic to introduce. I'll ask DDTEK about it.

[HighWiz]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I Preemptively apologize since this posts jumps around (maybe out of order) and tries to touch on a bunch of points/subjects/posts.

that said, i think there is a third camp... or at least a third line of direction the con could take:

Camp C - people who miss the older days, don't like to see more "mainstreaming" of the con, but don't expect us to downsize and wind up back at the Alexis Park. folk like this don't realistically expect DEFCON to revert, but they don't see strong reasons for policy changes that encourage more change away from the past.

i am surely philosophically aligned with a lot of the Camp A crowd, but i am sympathetic to Camp C and think it's likely the course of action with the most potential to realistically please the most folk.

You're absolutely correct, there are probably like 15-20 actual camps or groupings of people. But for some reason I had the "cold war" stuck in my head as I was crafting the post and was specifically thinking about the USSR and the USA... I'm a weird guy, what can I say?

I am right there with you on your concerns, they are many of mine as well. The problem is if you are encouraging community participation it gets hard to say no to things the community wants to do. Want to do a kid con? Ok, we have some space, but it is not an official event. If it fails we will try something else with the space.

Well, really, that's all you can do. As long as there is understanding in your own mind that some people aren't going to like it... You can't please everybody.

Last year we tried something new with the picture policy, and now weeks before the event almost a year later it is bubbling up to be a problem. We still have time to get a croup consensus on any changes we want to make, but the reasons need to be well thought out.

On the no pictures in the CTF area I believe it is mostly to prevent teams watching other teams, but maybe that would be a nice new dynamic to introduce. I'll ask DDTEK about it.

There really wasn't any discussion about the policy change last year. Good or bad, most people didn't know until they were on site. I read the forums daily, and I didn't know about the change till I got on site at con last year. I think that's the reason the discussion is happening now.

As for the "reasoning", I think it needs to happen both ways. If the policy is changed for "equality for all", then there needs to be a firm reasoning behind that. Originally someone said "The same is for DEF CON Kids, As it's being run more like a private event, it is an event for minors and minors are not allowed to be photographed without parents permission, except in public ( by law)." The problem is "except in public (by law)" is not entirely accurate... If you're talking about "for commercial purposes", maybe. But if some creepy person snaps a photo of some kid in the hall way at DefCon and you are saying that there are no restriction on photography, it's not illegal for their own personal purposes, since there is no expectation of privacy.

I miss the old days as well, but we don't do much if any DEF CON promotion, relying on word of mouth and the news articles people write about it to spread the word. We don't have sponsors who would try to promote it on our behalf to increase the value of their sponsorship, mailing lists to spam, and I don't even post to usenet or mailing lists much at all.

Short of going to a pre-registration with limited tickets nightmare it is not clear to me how we get people to stop attending short of raising the price too much, selecting dull sounding talks, no real contests. These moves would alter the experience and not be what the core attendees want I am guessing.

I would love to hear so thoughts on how we would get from wherever we are to where the "A" or "B" camp wants us.

Well, I take back the "B" camp part. I know how we could promote more, get sponsors like other hacker cons, pass out flyers at other events, etc, to mainstream even more. For this discussion I'm not interested in that. Talk to me more about what "A" envisions.

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't think promoting DefCon is the worst thing in the world. Done correctly, it could be the best thing in the world (though that's a totally separate discussion).

Wow. /facepalm

Thanks for that valuable insight on the discussion, buddy.

100% agree. If there were a poll option for "roamer is right" I'd vote for that one. Lose the workshops, kidcon, excess press, and corporate sponsorship. Get back to the volunteer roots. More people != "better" defcon. The people that are part of our community already know about defcon and don't need advertisements (ie, every hacker group asks its members "are you going to defcon?")

I don't think going back to the "Grass Roots" of DefCon is a viable option. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.

Hacking/InfoSec and the community that surrounds it has changed so much and I think DefCon is trying to change right along with it. The fact that DefCon is changing is not necessarily a bad thing.

Rather than trying to be all things to all people and being more inclusive, or attempting to be more exclusive, we (mostly DT) should figure out what we are want to be, and leave it at that. Make it a 'here we are, take it or leave it'.

But what if "What we want to be" is constantly changing? "What we want to be" may be different this year, than what it was last year? And you said "we (mostly DT)". Who are "we"? Are "we" the people on this thread? Maybe "we" are the 20,000 people who subscribe to DefCon on Facebook? The 18,000 who are twitter followers? The 10,000+ DefCon attendees? Who is "we"?

Dial back the charity shit. I'm all for helping out a good cause but is there ANYTHING you can do at DEF CON anymore without EFF getting a piece of it. I am not the person that came up with the nickname EFF CON, but I certainly agree with the sentiment. Dunk tank was a cool idea. EVERYTHING going to charity starts to grate on nerves. (Ok, that last one probably wasn't the best example of how to make Group A happier but I figured I'd say it while I had your attention )

I may have been the person who came up with the nickname EFFCon (maybe not though?). I don't so much mind stuff going to charity, but holy shit, why in gods name must everything go to EFF. eff this, eff that, eff EFFCon (eff pronounced as F in the first three).



Kidcon

I think Roamer & Anch (and everybody else) have some very valid points when it comes to KidCon. However, I don't believe it's the worst idea in the world. Prior to StealHead explaining the point "KidCon", I was fixed firmly against it (Shit, I don't like children in general, so why would I want to see more of them at con?). But once he explained that it was primarily for kids of DefCon attendees, that changed my opinion on it... Whether that's true or not, I don't know. He may have just been paying us all lip service (but I don't think so). The only thing I don't like about KidCon at this point is it domination of the media related to DefCon...

At the very least, I think it will be a very interesting experiment.


Socialization

The Alexis Park spoiled us all from the perspective of creating a great social/partying atmosphere. To me, when people "came to DefCon" helps a lot in explaining where they "fit" (as far as camps go). If someone was involved/attended Pre-Riv then they are more likely than not to be in the camp that "longs" for that type of atmosphere again. For many of the others, they can't miss what they never had.

Going back even further, there was a time at DefCon when people would call out someone on bullshit during a talk.

Tacitus made an interesting point when he said:

Maybe all this growth is a good thing, maybe DefCon gets so big to the point where it takes over 100% of the Rio rooms and we have room parties like at the AP

. And there's always that possibility. Though, I don't think you'll be able to have room parties exactly like you did at the AP... You could have Room parties at the the Riv. I know, because I did. Were they as "wild" as the parties at the AP? No. But you have to know your environment, if you're going to throw a party. They also probably won't ever be "Open Door" like at the AP (where you could bounce from Room to Room), and if we had an entire hotel I don't think it would be because of the hotel itself, but because of the amount of people that would want to go... It sucks that parties have to be invite only now, but it's a fact of the way things are with attendance numbers (with the good, comes the bad).



Work Shops

What's the deal with the workshops. Renderman characterized it best. Those of us that have been doing impromptu classes, shelling out our/their own cash to run contests, villages, parties, etc do take those workshops as a slap in the face. Some folks feel suckered and I think with good reason. It's not right. The villages are a great example. We have basically let them give away info for free, running classes and events all day long to make DEF CON better and not only have we not paid them but we've

CHARGED them to sell stuff (that the people attending their villages want/need to participate). I'd be pissed too.

I think Roamer makes great points with what he said. But maybe it's more along the lines of "how" workshops were chosen, rather than having workshops at all. As someone who drops a bunch of his own money to do 101, I totally understand where some people are coming from. I don't view the workshops as much of a slap in the face as I do some people charging extra admission for their own contest and then using the excuse that they don't want to "lose money" on it. If you're doing it, because you love it, then you're not "losing money".

Maybe it's the "free flow" of information that certain people are looking for, making them averse to the idea of workshops.

One of the discussion on the workshops thread was about "wasting a full day (or two)" in doing the workshops. But I think that draws more down to the fact that DefCon is different for just about every person who attends it. Some people see the workshops as a waste of time at DC and some see it as the greatest idea since slice bread.

Generally I like the IDEA of workshops at DefCon. Was/Is there space for the idea of "mini-workshops". Charge 10 or 20 bucks and learn how to do XYZ in a two hour session. Run them out of/in conjunction with the villages? Maybe not the worst idea in the world (maybe it is?)... Shit, doing something like that may help fund the villages. One of the discussion about the wireless village I had with people at one point was about the cost of doing some of the new stuff (then).. Stuff with "wireless tech" (Satellite TV, Bluetooth, zigbee, Ham, Mobile/Smart Phones, etc..)


n00bs

I think there could be more stuff done for the n00bs. I know there was a "n00b track" in the past, and it didn't work out well... This probably will sound very douchie, but I think it was poorly executed/done. When 101 gets near 1000 people at it, and I have countless people talk to me afterwards about "wanting to learn" but a lot of the talks being "over their head", I realize it's so desperately needed.


New Idea's

People are going to buck at most any "new idea's" introduce to DefCon. Hell, when we were originally discussing doing DefCon 101 we caught a lot of flak from a lot of people.

For a lot of people they didn't understand what we were doing or the purpose of 101. Some people still don't like the idea of it, which is fine, but most of the original detractors have come around to understanding it. And I think that the issue with any new idea presented to take place at DefCon. For many of the new "events" and such, a sub-forum is "created" and then the people that are directly making XYZ happen, don't post in it. They don't explain to people what's going on, and tell them the purpose of it all.

It's why I give the "DefCon kids" organizers a lot of credit, since they have tried to answer everyone's questions and take the feedback constructively. People may not like the answer they received, but the organizers have put forth the effort.

I think new idea's being introduced to DefCon are a great thing. Some are better than others, but you never know unless you try it/someone brings it up. Like the "secured wireless" or "DefCon Mobile".

[renderman]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Highwiz: When I said 'we' I was refering to those who cared enough to speak up an make thier views known and want to participate in the future of Defcon. Ultimatly it's DT's choice, but to my mind it makes more sense to listen to those who can articulate thier requests as opposed to guessing what people want.

I'm not against new things. As said I'm willing to give these new events a shot and see how they go, but I dont like seeing situations where they are the new de-facto thing and cannot be pulled.

On another note: wearing a Defcon 13 shirt today, part of the quote on the back was "We only teach the teachable" which made me think about what that meant. It may mean other things to others, but to me, part of it means that the depth of ones wallet should not be a metric to how teachable or un teachable they are.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

two small points:

1. i think it would be awesome if the photo policy became a little more restricted and remained that way through all of our growth in the coming years. it's a sort of awesome statement about the community and its values if DEFCON winds up being 20,000 attendees totally filling all rooms at the Rio and yet still the "don't be a douche with a camera" policy exists... it would show the strength of our values being able to remain resilient in the face of expansion, and would show that people will keep coming even with it in place.

2. i think that DEFCON Kids may be a big attention-getter this year that garners good press and turns heads that otherwise wouldn't be turned, but that in the future maybe we'll see that it can just be rolled into the "whole overall" DEFCON experience. i'm willing to bet that more than 50% of the folk who participate in the Kids area this year do not remain there the whole con. They'll go home and say how cool all of DEFCON was. And perhaps at DC 20 we'll just have a fully-opened up area again... with some of the contest and villages and whatnot being a little more accepting of kids just generally being around.

[Pyr0]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

In response to this comment:
Rumors that some contests/events are corporate backs, not just a simple case of a regular attendee wanting to run something and getting sponsors.

Sponsorships ARE allowed and companies can create and/or support any Official Contests or Events. However, there are strict rules about what you can and can't do - see below

NOT ALLOWED:
displaying company swag, logos, banners, etc. DEF CON is not a corporate sales show - if you want to have a booth and push product, hold a recruiting event, etc. Buy a booth at Blackhat or sign up for a vendor table at DEF CON.

ALLOWED:
You can donate money to support the community, conference, or private events and parties.
If the event or contest is not a formal DEF CON Contest or Event you may display company sponsors gear tastefully.
(Example: Facebook sponsored Ninja Networks and in turn they had a small logo on the ninja badges)

For the record - if you have been planning to push product / company at DEF CON I hope you have reached out the the Vendor Goons and paid your fees.

If somebody tries to push product, marketing, or business related shit in the contest area they will be warned and asked to remove / take down whatever has been deemed inappropriate. If they want to bitch and whine, throw a fit, or refuse I WILL PULL THIER BADGE AND THEY WILL BE ASKED TO LEAVE THE CONFERENCE

If you have any questions about what is appropriate and what isn't - email me at Pyr0 (AT) Defcon (DOT) org

[Anch]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

It's why I give the "DefCon kids" organizers a lot of credit, since they have tried to answer everyone's questions and take the feedback constructively. People may not like the answer they received, but the organizers have put forth the effort.

I agree with you HighWiz, I have to give them credit for taking all the criticism and questions with a degree of grace and respect that in turn deserves respect and recognition.

I don't agree with having a dedicated kids area at con, but I must say the organizers have done everything in their power to answer peoples questions and address their concerns, and for that I have to give them huge props.

[dead addict]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

As I was part of the decision regarding the changing of the rules, so it seemed appropriate that I pipe in.

Motivations of the participation of the press:

There seems to be the impression that DEFCON invites the press with the intention of growing the conference, or attracting more people to DEFCON. This really isn't the case.

There are a few reasons DEFCON accommodates and invites the press;
* it allows speakers to highlight their specific contributions in a forum that is larger than DEFCON
* it lets the hacker community directly influence the media's coverage of computer crime and 'hacking' in general
* They can shed light on issues where a media spotlight can help influence justice (eg: Dmitri Sklyarov) for events that surround DEFCON.

As press coverage is generally clustered after and during the event (with some coverage before DEFCON, in anticipation of some talks), I don't think the press DEFCON gets really influences it's growth much. I talk to a lot of attendees (and first time ones) about what brought them to con, and 'I read a media report about it' has only been a factor for a few local vegas attendee's presence.

Motivation on changing the rules for photography:

The reality is that crowd shots were being taken regularly by attendees; policing the camera use of 10,000+ attendees is a difficult task that at the end of the day seems rather fruitless. Ironically the only folks that were prohibited from taking these shots were professional photographers (although I'm sure some non-press are professionals as well).

It was really frustrating for the press to be unable to visually describe the scope of the event; crowd shots show you the magnitude of the gathering. Given involentary crowd shots are a reality, why not acknowledge it. While at one point in DEFCON's history attendees hid from the world that they attend (their bosses, etc), I'd really be surprised if this is really the case today. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The 'blurring' of traditional media and bloggers/citizen reporters was also one of the motivations; the random hacker that just took your photo's may have a million twitters followers that see the photo - it may get more press than the reporter from the italian TV show who has press credentials does from their story.

Those who are truly paranoid simply don't show up to DEFCON; it's a crowded event filled with feds, corporate security types, international spooks, and media of every type.

Despite the change in policy, we haven't changed in regards to our comfort in ejecting press for behaving inappropriately (including their inappropriate use of a camera).

In regards to CTF; every year there is more than one team that explicately does not want it's pictures taken (often times these teams are not from America, which may impact their reasons for requesting this). Despite the wording of the rules, there still is photography every year in the CTF room, including group photographs (of teams that give their consent).

[LosT]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but it's like 4:30 am and for some strange reason now seems like a good time to post-

Let me preface this by saying like many, many of those who have posted here I donate incredibly large amounts of personal time and money to Defcon. Some people have NO CLUE what a time commitment many in this community make. I would HOPE that those who do donate of themselves that their motivation is a love of what they do. I get frustrated when I see some people who work only 3 days out of the year bitching to those who work for weeks/months preparing stuff to 'give to the community'.

As it stands, DEFCON does not advertise. DEFCON grows because people come, have a good time, and word spreads. Growth is a sign of success to a certain point. There is nothing wrong with that.

I think it speaks VOLUMES that DT is here, reading and posting. I mean that alone shows the effort to make things the best they can be. All too often I see people bitch in public forums about things before ever approaching through avenues (even just a PM or an email?) but instead feel they need to charge to the public forums (sorry just a pet peeve).

Pyro has posted here in response to the contest, and what is/isn't allowed corporate wise- I believe that contests and events will rise to the level of their quality- The good ones survive- if you don't like or agree with a contest or event, don't participate in it. It will go away.

As far as the workshops go, I don't have a problem with people trying to recover their operational costs. The call for workshops was open to everyone. I see charging for stuff like that as a means of covering costs (not a 'get mad money' opportunity). i would hope that it would be evident if that was the case and that people simply wouldn't have signed up if it seemed the latter.

I had an internal debate many times about how to cover costs of Mystery Challenge, and if we should charge an entrance fee. On principle I never did, I didn't want to. It seemed wrong. I was putting a lot of personal funding into the contest, because I loved it. That spirit is evident in all the contests that survive, the fact that those running them care. It's what makes them great. Most contests have a shelf life of three years. Only those that care survive past that.