Press/Photos/Video restrictions

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I had an internal debate many times about how to cover costs of Mystery Challenge, and if we should charge an entrance fee. On principle I never did, I didn't want to. It seemed wrong. I was putting a lot of personal funding into the contest, because I loved it. That spirit is evident in all the contests that survive, the fact that those running them care. It's what makes them great. Most contests have a shelf life of three years. Only those that care survive past that.

i agree. i don't like to talk about it... but in all previous years i was just going out of pocket for the beer at BCCC, the locks in Gringo Warrior, the prizes in everything. this year i'm in the red on the DEFCON Shoot. none of these years has been anything close to what LosT has poured into his contests (and i think that difference shows if you see his amazing creations) but i generally agree that it's in the right spirit of things for DEFCON and that this is what helps to naturally weed out the cool events from the poor ones.

not whose money it is and where it comes from... but often there is a correlation between people doing things out of pocket and doing things out of love for the fun and the lulz.

[theprez98]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

I have avoided this thread for the most part because my opinion hasn't changed one bit since last year when this came up and I spewed forth my opinion quite a bit.

That said, I do want to restate my opinion on one piece (which appears to have been echoed by at least a couple of other people).

I have no issue with the press and/or attendees being allowed to take pictures if that's the policy we are going with. I have a HUGE issue with CTF being exempt. I don't understand why every point that has been made about why CTF somehow gets special treatment doesn't apply to <insert other contest participants here> or <insert joe hacker here>. If we have made the conscious decision that we want the press to do stories with pictures and spread the gospel of DEF CON then why would CTF be exempt from that? Didn't make sense last year. Doesn't make sense this year. I find it quite frustrating to basically tell someone that has, for example, contributed their time, money, and effort to DEF CON for years that their opinion is invalid because they aren't the chosen ones that participate in CTF and can therefore have their identities and image protected while you should suck it up and realize we live in a world where everything is photographed.

I'll disagree with our press policy until this inequity is addressed.

+1 (and a few extra characters to pass the minimum)

[dead addict]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

CTF; it seems worth talking about a bit more.

About 20-40% of the CTF participants have been explicitly concerned about public photo's of them. If any other DC contest had as strong feelings about photography, similar policies might be applied to them.

The real rule is 'don't be a dick', and if we are convinced that any member of the press is being a dick, we'll eject them (and have in the past). But we don't want to look like arbitrary folks that will fuck with you if we don't like you. Hackers should encourage dissent and shun assholes [as should everyone else].

There is a lot of concern regarding press behavior. I would submit the largely reasonable DEFCON reaction to Michelle Madigan's presence (and covert behavior) at DEFCON has encouraged self-policing of the media to avoid hit-peices or other inappropriate behavior. The year after the Madigan incident the press were acutely aware of the incident and didn't want to behave grossly inappropriately.

Honestly though a group pic shows that 'you were there' is largely harmless, and if anyone thinks their presence in Vegas and Defcon won't be public knowledge, I submit your risk analysis skills are questionable.

Input in to, and discussion about the relationship with the press is welcome and good stuff. E.G: a rule about never taking a screenshot without permission would be a good one. That being said, the press staff hears about complaints via the goons, and we have ejected press in the past - and will in the future.

Since the press relationships were professionally handled (not by myself, although I have had a voice in press relations philosophy) for the past 7 or so years, I would be hard pressed to point to examples of hit-peices in the press directed towards DEF CON or it's attendees.

[kallahar]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Dead Addict - thanks for contributing, but I don't think you realize how the rules changed last year. Last year the security goons were explicitly told "there are no photography/video restrictions". If the press wanted to do an interview in the hallway, they were allowed to. The only time goons could intervene is if they were a fire hazard or being beligerant.

Kallahar

[not5150]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Having been press for several years, I never had a problem with the old rules. It's probably because I had attended DC for a couple years as a regular guy before becoming a reporter.

I think the print/online press folks handle themselves fairly well... it's the broadcast TV cameramen that you have to worry about. They are used to crowd panning and getting lots of b-roll footage for their shots.

I'm not defending the TV guys, but here's how they think (I work with them a lot)

1. If you don't want to be filmed, don't stand in front of the lens.
2. More broll = more money.. after finishing the regular shot, the cameramen will film EVERYTHING for their own collection. They will then try to sell this as stock footage. It's a second source of income for them.
3. Every cameraman/reporter is gunning for a Pulitzer.... they won't give a damn about privacy if there is something juicy to film.

[astcell]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

No Pulitzer dreams here, I feel a glow when my pages get blocked by Net Nanny.

[Dark Tangent]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

We are in the middle of an internal discussion about reverting the rules, changing, or keeping them based on all that has been said, so hang on! Decision in a day or two.

[renderman]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

not5150: Glad to have your input from that side of things. I would agree, you've been one of the good ones. Knowing the motivations helps explain alot.

If it's explained that such b-roll shooting will be curtailed or frowned may cut down on alot of the issue. A more likely solution is to setup a time/place for those wide shots they want where it can be announced that this will be happening and where the cameras are to give people fair warning to GTFO for 5 minutes if they dont want to be shown. I'm thinking contest area or some other area they can get up high so everyone looks like ants and are not distinguishable.

I still want to see them in Gitmo orange jumpsuits though.....

[kallahar]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

not5150 - we all know that when told "turn the camera off" many videographers leave it running and just point it at the ground. How can we ensure the camera isn't recording? Do they have red lights? Should we require them to remove the battery? Is it common for them to cover up the record light if they're trying to "catch" someone?

Thanks! - also great work in the war zone!

Kallahar

[astcell]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Carry a small but powerful flashlight and shine it into their lenses. And if they are close to you and talking, ask them to open the tape drawer. Also I'd threaten to have them banned if they lie.

[chs]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

It was really frustrating for the press to be unable to visually describe the scope of the event; crowd shots show you the magnitude of the gathering. Given involentary crowd shots are a reality, why not acknowledge it. While at one point in DEFCON's history attendees hid from the world that they attend (their bosses, etc), I'd really be surprised if this is really the case today. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

As a member of the Security Goon staff, I can attest that our team gets SCORES of complaints every single year from attendees who are, in fact, hiding the fact that they go to Defcon from their bosses. Many of these people are government employees. As a solitary Goon, I get at least one complaint a day on average. Multiply that by 50 goons, 3 days, with a little bit of margin of error and that's well over a hundred complaints specifically about press taking pictures of people who CANNOT be photographed. Please note that I'm choosing those words carefully. There is a difference between someone who CANT be photographed, and someone who doesn't WANT to be photographed.

There is a part of Defcon which is still very much "underground".

[not5150]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

not5150 - we all know that when told "turn the camera off" many videographers leave it running and just point it at the ground. How can we ensure the camera isn't recording? Do they have red lights? Should we require them to remove the battery? Is it common for them to cover up the record light if they're trying to "catch" someone?

Thanks! - also great work in the war zone!

Kallahar

This is actually a great point. Recording audio sometimes is just as powerful as recording video and it's very difficult to tell if a camera is recording. Most have red lights, but depending on the model the light may be on the front, back, side, etc. The light may be blinking or solid red. On the Canon DSLRs it's a red light on the back of the camera.

Most professional video guys will tape up the red light with electrical/duct tape.

Having the camera pointed at the ground while recording isn't necessarily a sneaky move... it could be there's nothing interesting and the camera is just getting too heavy to hold up to your chest/shoulder. Cameras also have a slight delay from the time you turn it on and push record to the time it actually starts recording. Myself I always hit the record button way before bringing the camera up to my eyes.

I wouldn't be adverse to wearing a orange safety vest or something as press... but the thing is so many people have cameras these days that aren't press.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Carry a small but powerful flashlight and shine it into their lenses. And if they are close to you and talking, ask them to open the tape drawer. Also I'd threaten to have them banned if they lie.

Tape drawer? what's that?

[priest]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Tape drawer? what's that?

Where they put the video tape/DVD they are recording onto.

All the paranoia aside for the most part the mainstream press are pretty good about filming and not filming. Its the indi assclowns who tend to be the problem. Point it out to a Sec Goon and let us handle it.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Press/Photos/Video restrictions

Where they put the video tape/DVD they are recording onto.

All the paranoia aside for the most part the mainstream press are pretty good about filming and not filming. Its the indi assclowns who tend to be the problem. Point it out to a Sec Goon and let us handle it.

I was being a bit sarcastic, most new video cameras I've seen these days are HDD only