Goon Bribe Cards

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

This is fact. I was sitting right next to DT when he said no cards next year. Specifically he said "We aren't ever doing this again. Period"

Yeah... even I got that memo.

So... back to the compromise position. 'Someone' will make them roughly gender neutral with no overt violent requests or sexual references. Ideas?

[Chris]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

The desicion was made by DT. No boobs on cards. No violence. What I think he said according to reports was NO goon cards next year. What I'm trying to express and add my opinion to is that they should come back, slightly modified as a compromise. I'm hoping that DT is cool with that becase overwhelmingly everyone agrees they are a kicking idea and THOUSANDS of people enjoyed them.

This is fact. I was sitting right next to DT when he said no cards next year. Specifically he said "We aren't ever doing this again. Period"

[kallahar]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

You are also not DT's mouthpiece. Have him tell us, or have him contact our security leads. We still haven't seen any evidence of your so called complainers.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Great noodly shiznit, people.
Goons represent Defcon. That's a given.
People like boobs(either boy or girl type.) Thats a given.
Goons want to see boob? Fine.
.

Since I cant pull up and provide anyone with a novel regarding the sexism talks that happened on twitter before and during con, can you tell everyone what happened on bash Nikita day ( precon sexism and boob discussion) ? In your own words and be honest about your perspective, what I tried to do, what i said to you, and what the outcome was?

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Indeed. So...Let's say a contest issues the cards... ie Scav hunt could 'issue' the cards and include something like 'naughty' - that way it is gender neutral and not officially issued...plus it would be associated with an even already known for the hijinx.

Ideas?

I think Naughty is a good idea. The options are endless there.
I think to sub for Violent act, you should use PWN or something to that effect.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Note that the cards did not use the defcon logo, nor did they use any trademarked terms. It says "DEFCON SECURITY" and "Defcon 19, Las Vegas, August 2011". There's nothing that makes the card "officially sanctioned by DEF CON company". It was handed out and stamped by volunteers who fly themselves to vegas, wake their asses up at 7am, walk 60 miles in the weekend, and stand in a hallway for hours on end in exchange for a few nights in a hotel room, two red shirts, and a badge.

Being able to see a few boobs by ladies who want to flaunt it is a great perk. If we were all paid employees then maybe the situation would be different.

Nikita does NOT represent my defcon. I want more stuff like this, not less.

Kallahar

GOON implies it did, The fact that they were stamping them did, the fact that they were wearing them did.

You think I haven't worked as hard as you? Walked those same 60 miles, shit last year I did it very pregnant, On top of that I work for months on end with no sleep, pulling 72 hour shifts to see things accomplished for the better of the con, It really pisses me off when the COLOR of the shirt you wear implies you are the only martyrs for the cause and we other goons all have it easy in comparison.

You sir, don't represent MY DEF CON Either. Congrats, a veiled insult has been thrown, I shall now go get my dueling gloves and meet you at the monkey bars at 3.

Everyone is missing the point and all you want to do is rant and rant. Some of you seriously fail reading comprehension and the lovely Sarcastic post now makes a few complaints into an implied THOUSANDS. Way to go dude, throw bullshit in to confuse people, you win.

The desicion was made by DT. No boobs on cards. No violence. What I think he said according to reports was NO goon cards next year. What I'm trying to express and add my opinion to is that they should come back, slightly modified as a compromise. I'm hoping that DT is cool with that becase overwhelmingly everyone agrees they are a kicking idea and THOUSANDS of people enjoyed them.

Those who can't accept a gesture of understanding and compromise, are very immature. I can understand times when you stand your ground and not budge, but this honestly seems like a really crappy battle to pick. You're gonna see boobs every year regardless, to imply that changing a word on a punch card is going to make it into a sterile environment is the most delusional thing I have heard all week.

[phreck]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

internet high five sir.

[kallahar]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Note that the cards did not use the defcon logo, nor did they use any trademarked terms. It says "DEFCON SECURITY" and "Defcon 19, Las Vegas, August 2011". There's nothing that makes the card "officially sanctioned by DEF CON company". It was handed out and stamped by volunteers who fly themselves to vegas, wake their asses up at 7am, walk 60 miles in the weekend, and stand in a hallway for hours on end in exchange for a few nights in a hotel room, two red shirts, and a badge.

Being able to see a few boobs by ladies who want to flaunt it is a great perk. If we were all paid employees then maybe the situation would be different.

Nikita does NOT represent my defcon. I want more stuff like this, not less.

Kallahar

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

My bet is on a card that makes last years look weak but totally issued and unassociated with the goons and defcon (attendee issued).

Goons are a paramilitary force, volunteers or not. Militaries and other uniformed forces live in special social contract – they get to have a culture, customs, and do really cool special stuff in exchange for living to higher standard. That’s paid or not: I’m a volunteer (not paid) firefighter. I get to speed in a 55,000 lbs truck, wear a cool uniform, talk on the radio without license, all that, in exchange for following both the written and implied rules of my department.

I don’t know if there are any written “goon rules of conduct” but there sure are some implied. Like other military/paramilitary organizations, they get to “break the (normal) rules” and have a special culture in exchange for working for the common good and following those rules of conduct.

The goons already limit their speech; yeah, we can joke about it, but compare what an asshat “human” can mouth off about and to what goons do. Party time aside, goons don’t practice “free speech” on the populace. They limit their behavior for the common good. Compare “make a fucking hole” to going up to every female attendee they see and saying “fuck you bitch”. Attendees expect one, but not the other. One is "just defcon", the other would be crossing the line.

There is an implied social contract with this paramilitary, half naked full cussing defcon style or not. So I agree with the Cot’s questions, but I think his underlying “this” point is already decided:



I would argue they are already limited, even if only implied. Did “boobs” cross that limit? To me, no.

Unfortunately or not, I can see that this may be a turning point event for our favorite red-shirted army. My money is on goon cards next year, sans boobs.

[FirmWarez]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

...The items of complaint, and where we are now is still these:

Is it a good idea to limit "speech" and "express" of goons on duty?
Should goons hand out cards like this one at Defcon?
Should things like this need to be "approved" by some sort of manager before they are, "allowed" ?

All of these are *serious* issues. If you all want to actually resolve this, I would address these points.

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

...

Goons are a paramilitary force, volunteers or not. Militaries and other uniformed forces live in special social contract – they get to have a culture, customs, and do really cool special stuff in exchange for living to higher standard. That’s paid or not: I’m a volunteer (not paid) firefighter. I get to speed in a 55,000 lbs truck, wear a cool uniform, talk on the radio without license, all that, in exchange for following both the written and implied rules of my department.

I don’t know if there are any written “goon rules of conduct” but there sure are some implied. Like other military/paramilitary organizations, they get to “break the (normal) rules” and have a special culture in exchange for working for the common good and following those rules of conduct.

The goons already limit their speech; yeah, we can joke about it, but compare what an asshat “human” can mouth off about and to what goons do. Party time aside, goons don’t practice “free speech” on the populace. They limit their behavior for the common good. Compare “make a fucking hole” to going up to every female attendee they see and saying “fuck you bitch”. Attendees expect one, but not the other. One is "just defcon", the other would be crossing the line.

There is an implied social contract with this paramilitary, half naked full cussing defcon style or not. So I agree with the Cot’s questions, but I think his underlying “this” point is already decided:

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

I would argue they are already limited, even if only implied. Did “boobs” cross that limit? To me, no.

Unfortunately or not, I can see that this may be a turning point event for our favorite red-shirted army. My money is on goon cards next year, sans boobs.

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Indeed. So...Let's say a contest issues the cards... ie Scav hunt could 'issue' the cards and include something like 'naughty' - that way it is gender neutral and not officially issued...plus it would be associated with an even already known for the hijinx.

Ideas?

I honestly think that the bribe cards are a great idea, and I applaud the security team for making the effort to be more fun and interactive and less surly and bossy. I have heard a lot of good things about the security team this year. It enhances the con experience for the goon and human attendee, and I am all for that. I know for a fact that my lovely wife (Nikita if you don't know that) feels the same way, and that she is indeed a fellow fan of boobs.

All she is really trying to point out, in her own verbose, usually hilarious, and sometimes abrasive manner, is that DEF CON is an entity that can receive backlash from the wrong thing associated with it's name. It's not boobs that are the issue, it's that boobs (generally speaking) are specifically a female body part, and a few people took issue with that. And the Goons represent DEF CON, so it reflects upon the larger entity.

I don't know, maybe *flash* would be a better term, as it is gender neutral and could be any body part, and allows for the same kind of lulz and hijinks that we all love about DEF CON.

I would state that in reality, this vocal minority has a lot of power, because they are in fact, vocal, when most aren't. In our social media laden daily lives, the complainers have the loudest voices because they get heard, and anyone who is like minded or on the fence can ride that dissent. If consequences do arise from the small amount of dissenters, it is DEF CON who gets to deal with them, not the goons.

Do I think consequences will arise from the bribe cards? No.

Whether it was one person or 1000, all it takes is one gray incident, and someone with too much time on their hands to cause problems. So I guess all I'm saying is, be careful. I am not a fan of political correctness by any means, I think it takes the passion out of interaction, but it is a part of the world we live in, and can't really be ignored.

[neil]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I honestly think that the bribe cards are a great idea, and I applaud the security team for making the effort to be more fun and interactive and less surly and bossy. I have heard a lot of good things about the security team this year. It enhances the con experience for the goon and human attendee, and I am all for that. I know for a fact that my lovely wife (Nikita if you don't know that) feels the same way, and that she is indeed a fellow fan of boobs.

All she is really trying to point out, in her own verbose, usually hilarious, and sometimes abrasive manner, is that DEF CON is an entity that can receive backlash from the wrong thing associated with it's name. It's not boobs that are the issue, it's that boobs (generally speaking) are specifically a female body part, and a few people took issue with that. And the Goons represent DEF CON, so it reflects upon the larger entity.

I don't know, maybe *flash* would be a better term, as it is gender neutral and could be any body part, and allows for the same kind of lulz and hijinks that we all love about DEF CON.

I would state that in reality, this vocal minority has a lot of power, because they are in fact, vocal, when most aren't. In our social media laden daily lives, the complainers have the loudest voices because they get heard, and anyone who is like minded or on the fence can ride that dissent. If consequences do arise from the small amount of dissenters, it is DEF CON who gets to deal with them, not the goons.

Do I think consequences will arise from the bribe cards? No.

Whether it was one person or 1000, all it takes is one gray incident, and someone with too much time on their hands to cause problems. So I guess all I'm saying is, be careful. I am not a fan of political correctness by any means, I think it takes the passion out of interaction, but it is a part of the world we live in, and can't really be ignored.

[badkobold]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I too call bullshit on the huge rash of complaints about the Goon Bribe Cards.

I spoke to a ton of peeps and never once did I hear a bitch about the Bribe Cards. In fact, there were quite a few positive conversations on how-to get them all punched.

Please don't tell me DefCon is moving to the politically correct center, because that would be bullshit.

-BK-

[kallahar]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I call bullshit on there being thousands of complaints. I was on the defcon floor or at parties from 7:30am until 2am all four days. I didn't get a single complaint, and the best Boobs punch was the guy who hacked the barbie to pull her top down with string. At no time were goons ever harassing any of the ladies to see their tits. Plenty of women chose to keep their clothes on, and we respect them just as much as we respect the ones who show skin.

Nor did anyone "need" to get their card punched. There was no prize, there were no special favors.

What people DID get was a lot of fun. There were 2500 cards printed, I saw hundreds of cards that got punched, and some people had multiple cards filled out. They had GREAT time. And those that didn't simply didn't have to take part.

The day that defcon is officially a "sit quietly in a classroom environment, STFU, and listen to the speaker" is the day I stop going. That's by far the *least* important part of defcon for a lot of us.

Kallahar

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Again, the item of contention that I see is not exhibition of boobs or not by attendees.

It isn't actually evidence of complaints or how many complaints.

If you all want to get to a resolution, the point of disagreement appears to be on limiting "speech" and "express" of goons on duty:

Should goons hand out cards like this one at Defcon?

This is the, "bone of contention."

Agreements on both sides:
* Cards are a great idea
* Cards encourage interaction with goons in new ways
* Cards humanize goons so they are not just yelling at people, but are people themselves.
* Boobs by attendees = ok, streaking by attendees in contests = ok, actions between two consenting adults (that are not goons) are ok.

Is this not true? Did I fail in this list?

So, you all can keep posting examples of how boobs, streaking or other things have been part of defcon, but that is just stating a point that already has agreement.

The items of complaint, and where we are now is still these:

Is it a good idea to limit "speech" and "express" of goons on duty?
Should goons hand out cards like this one at Defcon?
Should things like this need to be "approved" by some sort of manager before they are, "allowed" ?

All of these are *serious* issues. If you all want to actually resolve this, I would address these points.

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

^^^^

This.

I've stated my opinion already, but I am not a goon, not staff, and not management, so I have no stake beyond identifying the issues, expressing my opinions, and risking loss of future opportunities for things like this at future Defcon. (I am just a volunteer.)

Goons are not employees, they are volunteers. I like goons expressing things like this, and this card. (Previously stated.)

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

^^^^

This.