Goon Bribe Cards

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I do agree on your first point. I do 'Get you' as you so succinctly put it. Putting forth an analogy relating to cat and mouse may be offensive to the entire mouse community. Please refrain from analogies that might upset groups that are represented at DefCon. Your sarcasm is noted, and one-upped. Good day.

You are correct. I spoke out of anger and I apologize for potentially offending the entire rodentia order. I love and respect them all. Especially voles.

[SkyDog]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Titties ain't easy, but they necessary. So goons chase titties like Tom chases Jerry. Get me?

I do agree on your first point. I do 'Get you' as you so succinctly put it. Putting forth an analogy relating to cat and mouse may be offensive to the entire mouse community. Please refrain from analogies that might upset groups that are represented at DefCon. Your sarcasm is noted, and one-upped. Good day.

[noid]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I also found:
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65184089747457
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65522578456576

... but just that one user and those two tweets. :/


and me ;)

And I hate to shit in your punchbowl, but the incident that the person is referring to in those tweets was incorrectly reported. You see, the group of folks doing the whole 'shots4boobs' thing were attendees, not goons. I know this because we had some contact with them later on that night.

Also confused as to why @_defcon_ said we were discussing it internally as I'm not aware of any internal discussions going on relating to an issue that didn't involve my team. But hey, what do I know..

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Titties ain't easy, but they necessary. So goons chase titties like Tom chases Jerry. Get me?

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I also found:
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65184089747457
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65522578456576

... but just that one user and those two tweets. :/

First off, no Goon was involved with the "boobs4shots" signs. In fact, we were prepared to confront them if necessary for totally inappropriate behavior towards women.

So this twitter person has a valid complaint. However, it's not aimed at the bribe cards.

and me ;)

Alright, here are the numbers so far.
----------------------------------------------------

Against:

• Nikita
• Some twitter person who doesn't have her facts straight.
• You

For:

• Everyone else

"Everyone else" of course being somewhere around 12,000 attendees.

At the very least, it includes the 2500 recipients of the bribe cards.

So, at least 0.0012% of attendees didn't like the cards.

[noid]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Don't skirt the issue.

You claimed THOUSANDS, now cite your fucking sources.

I find it extremely hard to believe that more than a 10th of the attendees complained and that they all specified that they wished to not be identified.

Real Facts and Figures, not hearsay, rumors and your own made up crap.

Rumor has it, being gay destroys your ability to pick up on sarcasm.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

So, I finally buckled in and decided to search twitter. Here's what I found:...

I also found:
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65184089747457
http://twitter.com/#!/KdotCdot/statu...65522578456576

Because seriously, if you try to argue that kind of behavior as harmless you also need to ask why girls don't come to your con. #defcon

... but just that one user and those two tweets. :/

So far, the only person publicly complaining is Nikita.

and me ;)

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Now, if Nikita's the only non-goon person who actually did read/hear complaints, that's a little odd. Some publicly viewable stuff, in quantity, would be great. But the fact that, as a goon, you did not receive in-person complaints about the goons being discriminatory, well. . . .yeah.

This is my problem here.

As a goon, the first we heard of problems were when Nikita sent a text or email to flea, complaining about the bribe cards and citing complaints.

Then we have this:

People were upset. People did think the goons were being ignorant sexist jerks.

And this:

You want feedback, go look for it on twitter, facebook,etc not hard.

So, I finally buckled in and decided to search twitter. Here's what I found:

xillwillx Will Genovese
I find it funny that @_defcon_ is "looking into" #shots4boobies when goons hand out bribe cards that ask to show boobs #stopcryingpussies

http://twitter.com/#!/_defcon_/statu...63593142534144

In this she again complains that it was "offensive to many".

So far, the only person publicly complaining is Nikita.

Where are these "many" complaints? Why are they not public? Why are they so secret? If they can't be shared on the forums, ok, then why aren't they being shared with fellow staff and goons?

[HighWiz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

If you havin' titty problems I feel bad for you, son. We got 99 complaints but titties weren't one (at the chaste and pure hacker con we threw, guest starring Enya). (The 99 complaints were "needs more enya".)

Don't skirt the issue.

You claimed THOUSANDS, now cite your fucking sources.

I find it extremely hard to believe that more than a 10th of the attendees complained and that they all specified that they wished to not be identified.

Real Facts and Figures, not hearsay, rumors and your own made up crap.

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

If you havin' titty problems I feel bad for you, son. We got 99 complaints but titties weren't one (at the chaste and pure hacker con we threw, guest starring Enya). (The 99 complaints were "needs more enya".)

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I really don't care about this thread or topic at all. However, if you were saying Hundreds I may be able to believe you, but saying Thousands of people complained.... Well, I call bullshit. If you're saying over 1000s of people at con bitched to you about it, then you are just a motherfucking liar.

Cite your fucking sources.

I think stderr was being sarcastic. consider the tone in the post, and in
https://forum.defcon.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=41

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I really don't care about this thread or topic at all. However, if you were saying Hundreds I may be able to believe you, but saying Thousands of people complained.... Well, I call bullshit. If you're saying over 1000s of people at con bitched to you about it, then you are just a motherfucking liar.

Cite your fucking sources.

mo titties mo problems, son

end of

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

nikita - what is the problem with 'violent act'? I think I have to agree with CHS on this one.

chs - agreed on the 'violent act' bit.

Maybe you're spending too much time in the back rooms counting money, reading the twitter feeds, checking facebook statuses and thinking up new and more PC ways to make Defcon better. But myself and the fellow attendees are on the floor socializing with each other and have a great time.

that's giving someone the benefit of the doubt. . . (not that nikita's been exactly amenable either)


but, you keep bringing the point that everyone on the floor liked the idea, and basically no one complained. Play hypothetical for a minute, and assume that someone was offended, felt disempowered and discriminated against by the goons. do you really think that person would complain to that same goon?
I doubt it.

Now, if Nikita's the only non-goon person who actually did read/hear complaints, that's a little odd. Some publicly viewable stuff, in quantity, would be great. But the fact that, as a goon, you did not receive in-person complaints about the goons being discriminatory, well. . . .yeah.

[HighWiz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

The THOUSANDS of people that complained to me asked to have their names withheld because.....

I really don't care about this thread or topic at all. However, if you were saying Hundreds I may be able to believe you, but saying Thousands of people complained.... Well, I call bullshit. If you're saying over 1000s of people at con bitched to you about it, then you are just a motherfucking liar.

Cite your fucking sources.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Sharing things like that would be insensitive, you clod.

I had planned to stay out of this discussion after summarizing the items of disagreement, but I see problems with where this discussion is going and want to insert a break and call a, "point of information":

It looks like we are, "talking past each other."

1) Is there or is there not agreement on the item: "It is okay for attendees (Humans) to show boobs, streak, prank, do silly things.

It looks like everyone seems to agree that this is acceptable and should not stop. Anyone disagree?

This is where there appears to still be disagreement:
2a) Goons (not Humans) should not be allowed to distribute these cards as-is?
2b) Goons (not Humans) should not be allowed to request silly actions if those actions could appear to be sexist [or other-ist]?
2c) Goons (not Humans) should have less freedom to request silly behavior than Humans? [unless it has been approved?]

Is it true that we all agree that "1" is not an issue, but the items of contention include one, some or all of the "2*)" items listed above?

I bring this up because it looks like people are getting frustrated because the items of contention have not been well defined.

Are there any other issues beyond those listed in 2a -> 2c?

I'm going to try to stay out of the rest of the argument unless it looks like the wheels on the bus are going to fall off.