Goon Bribe Cards

[kallahar]

I personally loved the Security Goon Bribe Cards. There were 2,500 made so just about 1/4th of attendees got one. It really seemed like most people thought they were a lot of fun. The items were: Cold Drink, 6 Cold Drinks, Personal Favor, Boobs, Violent Act, and Swag.

They also were a great way to get more informal interactions between humans and goons. Normally we just yell at people in order to manage the craziness that are the lines (especially the registration line thursday), but with the cards we could have fun at any time.

I heard that some feminazis were offended that women were being objectified because of the Boobs item, but I disagree with them. For one, we had a bunch of female security goons this year who also love seeing boobs, and our gay male goons enjoy seeing boobs of all sorts. Secondly, just because they don't want to show their boobs doesn't mean that they should be denying that right to other women, plenty of ladies LOVED flashing us, it makes us happy!

And of course the "bribe" aspect was all in good fun, people who filled out their card didn't get any special treatment other than a thumbs up and a nod of respect.

Kallahar

[Dallas]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I thought they were great - got lots of Boobs and Beer..much fun.

I personally loved the Security Goon Bribe Cards. There were 2,500 made so just about 1/4th of attendees got one. It really seemed like most people thought they were a lot of fun. The items were: Cold Drink, 6 Cold Drinks, Personal Favor, Boobs, Violent Act, and Swag.

They also were a great way to get more informal interactions between humans and goons. Normally we just yell at people in order to manage the craziness that are the lines (especially the registration line thursday), but with the cards we could have fun at any time.

I heard that some feminazis were offended that women were being objectified because of the Boobs item, but I disagree with them. For one, we had a bunch of female security goons this year who also love seeing boobs, and our gay male goons enjoy seeing boobs of all sorts. Secondly, just because they don't want to show their boobs doesn't mean that they should be denying that right to other women, plenty of ladies LOVED flashing us, it makes us happy!

And of course the "bribe" aspect was all in good fun, people who filled out their card didn't get any special treatment other than a thumbs up and a nod of respect.

Kallahar

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

first: the bribe cards were pretty fun. It would have been nice if they were good for something afterwards, but they did provide a basis for interaction.

Also, while I was wearing a generic red shirt, a random passer-by offered me a beer, perhaps hoping for a bribe stamp. So, thumbs up there!

that said:
I don't consider myself femnazi, but I have to kind of agree on the 'boobs' item. It may not be objectification per se, and not everyone takes it the same way, but it definitely gets closer to the line, even if not crossing it.

1) 'boobs' are on the same level as 'cold drink' or 'personal favor' in the discourse of the bribe card.

2) 'boobs' is the only sex-specific item on the card. Every other item is neutral, 'boobs' is inherently female-oriented. (even if you manage to get a goon to stamp, either with an image, or man-boobs, or some other hack)

3) The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data', but I know I witnessed at least one interaction where the briber was not entirely comfortable with the situation. She went through with it, and that's entirely her choice, but giving a space to and legitimizing those sorts of interactions is probably not the best idea.
['those sorts of interactions' referring specifically to situations where the woman involved is not 100% (or at least 80%) comfortable, and there's pressure or cajoling on the part of the bribe-ee]

---

in the wider discussion: percentage-wise, the hacker community is largely male. Some women are comfortable in that environment, prefer it, etc. More power to them. I don't think a community should discourage otherwise competent and capable people from participating based on the combination of their anatomy and the current society at large.

[MisterVandal]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

While I avoided the Cards, I did learn that we had a few groups of girls come by our table asking for anyone who needed "boobs" stamped to come over, they would flash, as they were happy to do so, so that others could get the stamp without being uncomfortable. Also, since we put the card on the list, we were very happy to have some helpful people come over and help out.

And how can you say people got nothing special? They got a wooden nickel!

I personally loved the Security Goon Bribe Cards. There were 2,500 made so just about 1/4th of attendees got one. It really seemed like most people thought they were a lot of fun. The items were: Cold Drink, 6 Cold Drinks, Personal Favor, Boobs, Violent Act, and Swag.

They also were a great way to get more informal interactions between humans and goons. Normally we just yell at people in order to manage the craziness that are the lines (especially the registration line thursday), but with the cards we could have fun at any time.

I heard that some feminazis were offended that women were being objectified because of the Boobs item, but I disagree with them. For one, we had a bunch of female security goons this year who also love seeing boobs, and our gay male goons enjoy seeing boobs of all sorts. Secondly, just because they don't want to show their boobs doesn't mean that they should be denying that right to other women, plenty of ladies LOVED flashing us, it makes us happy!

And of course the "bribe" aspect was all in good fun, people who filled out their card didn't get any special treatment other than a thumbs up and a nod of respect.

Kallahar

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

While I avoided the Cards, I did learn that we had a few groups of girls come by our table asking for anyone who needed "boobs" stamped to come over, they would flash, as they were happy to do so, so that others could get the stamp without being uncomfortable. Also, since we put the card on the list, we were very happy to have some helpful people come over and help out.

That's very considerate of them. Again, I don't think it's a problem with the setup, per se, and different strokes for different folks, etc. But, with the way the hacker community, and society at large, is now, 'boobs on the bribe card' doesn't help the situation. IMO.

And how can you say people got nothing special? They got a wooden nickel!

I thought the goons gave that out to confuse the badge puzzlers ;)

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

To make the "boobs" item less of an issue, would it be better to have it read,"bare chest, crotch, ass (our choice)" ? Then the option could not legitimately be claimed as an issue of sex. Of course, the prudes at Defcon might complain, and ask for that to be removed. Another special interest of people with tooth decay might also complain about the "cold drink" option as it could cause tooth pain to drink a cold beverage. Oh! and the "Violent Act" entry could leads to complaints by pacifists....

There was an element to Defcon that has been slowly disappearing as time moves on: uninhibited, genuine and brutal honesty. As time moves forward, there seems to be a change, and people are altering (because they are expected to, or they feel compelled to) their behavior based on a perceived image. Here is where I am just waiting for someone to chime-in about the, "boobs," entry, and mention "Kid Con" and say, "this needs to stop, for the children."

Really? This has happened before. While we were at the AP, one of the hired "Vinyl Vana" types actually got topless as a result of the whole daily double option and removal of a piece of clothing.

Historically, the audience was more of a participant in presentations, actively laughing-out-loud, applauding, cheering, or "booing" something that was presented or put on display. They were more energetic. Now the population in the audience behaves more like students in a college classroom -- silent, non-responsive, non-reactive, sedentary.

This goon card came across to me as an attempt to bring back some of the older antics, entertainment and unexpected content of older Defcon.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

To make the "boobs" item less of an issue, would it be better to have it read,"bare chest, crotch, ass (our choice)" ? Then the option could not legitimately be claimed as an issue of sex. Of course, the prudes at Defcon might complain, and ask for that to be removed. Another special interest of people with tooth decay might also complain about the "cold drink" option as it could cause tooth pain to drink a cold beverage. Oh! and the "Violent Act" entry could leads to complaints by pacifists....

If people with tooth decay tended to be excluded or differentiated from the hacker community (or the computer community in general), in anything other than a small percent, then it might be an issue. At the moment, it's not.
Prudishness is, largely, a person's own choice and beliefs.

As for the non-sex-specific chest/crotch/ass - all for it.

There was an element to Defcon that has been slowly disappearing as time moves on: uninhibited, genuine and brutal honesty. As time moves forward, there seems to be a change, and people are altering (because they are expected to, or they feel compelled to) their behavior based on a perceived image. Here is where I am just waiting for someone to chime-in about the, "boobs," entry, and mention "Kid Con" and say, "this needs to stop, for the children."

I'm probably arrogant, but I consider this publishing of my opinions to be a matter of that sort of honesty.

The DEFCON salute is the middle finger, and InfoSec people make a living out of telling companies: "you're doing it wrong." IMO, 'boobs on bribe card' is 'doing it wrong'.

people always alter their behavior to their own self-image. It's just a matter of to what degree they allow the outside world to influence it. At DEFCON, some people make a show of being alcoholics, or obsessively rule-bending, as that's the image.

As for the KidCon - meh. Adult disclaimer still applies.

Really? This has happened before. While we were at the AP, one of the hired "Vinyl Vana" types actually got topless as a result of the whole daily double option and removal of a piece of clothing.

Also a fine line, and I've mentioned it before. I think Hacker Jeopardy gets a bit more leeyway, as the Vana Vinyl is performing, and as a character is very much in power. **shrugs**

Historically, the audience was more of a participant in presentations, actively laughing-out-loud, applauding, cheering, or "booing" something that was presented or put on display. They were more energetic. Now the population in the audience behaves more like students in a college classroom -- silent, non-responsive, non-reactive, sedentary.

Unfortunately, this is true in talks. Definitely not true in Hacker Jeopardy. Different audiences, I suppose.

This goon card came across to me as an attempt to bring back some of the older antics, entertainment and unexpected content of older Defcon.

I largely agree. It's a good idea, and it worked well.

I just don't agree that concerns with the implementation, even if brought up by 'femnazis', should be disregarded or downplayed.

[charliex]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I think the boobs were fine, no one is forced to do it, so it's still a choice. I had a good laugh when flea came up to me and yelled 'i just stamped your girlfriends card'. We had a lot of fun with it.

So whomever came up with it, big thumbs up from us..

Don't want it, don't do it, don't want to see it, don't look. I don't think having boobs written on a card at the rio is going to affect much, unless its at the topless pool.

[b0n3z]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Here is where I am just waiting for someone to chime-in about the, "boobs," entry, and mention "Kid Con" and say, "this needs to stop, for the children."

Yeah all of that right there, that comes down to one thing....you don't want your kids seeing boobs, don't take them to Vegas!!!

[dc0de]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

All I can say is that I interacted with way more attendees this year, and gave away a large number of Happy Faced Crossbone pins for completed cards.

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I think people are focusing way too much on the LITERAL "boobs", rather than the hacker or defcon spirit.

Seriously people. Adapt. Exploit a weakness or vulnerability. Exercise creativity.

Soo many male attendees just flat gave up when they saw "boobs", rather than try to be creative. Same with many (though many less) female attendees.

The absolute, hands-down, WINNER of the "boobs" part of the punch card was in fact a male who didn't even show anyone a real pair of boobs. He actually got a barbie doll and modified the clothing so that if you pulled down a tab it activated "boobs mode", and pulled her top down and another tab for "modesty mode" that pulled it back up.

It was done extremely well, was insanely creative, showed an ability to adapt and exercise creativity and to a lesser extent utilize a loophole or vulnerability in the system.

THAT is the Defcon spirit. And there were zero actual female boobs involved.

For all of the people that just gave up too, we've got a couple goons on the team that are in fact gay and don't mind man-boobs. And we've got a few ladies that are the same (though most of our ladies actually prefer lady-boobs).

Historically, the audience was more of a participant in presentations, actively laughing-out-loud, applauding, cheering, or "booing" something that was presented or put on display. They were more energetic. Now the population in the audience behaves more like students in a college classroom -- silent, non-responsive, non-reactive, sedentary.

This goon card came across to me as an attempt to bring back some of the older antics, entertainment and unexpected content of older Defcon.

This. Exactly. Sadly, you have nailed it on the head with "silent, non-responsive, non-reactive, sedentary".

I can't tell you how many times people got bribe cards and their reaction was simply "I don't get it", or how many bribe cards people got and then they just put them on their lanyard like a piece of swag and promptly ignored them. Even for people that played the game or somehow otherwise obtained a wooden nickel were constantly asking us what they were for.

It's that creative, inventive, DIY, break-the-system kind of classic Defcon hacker spirit that we tried to re-invigorate at this years con. Sadly, it mostly just went right over the attendees heads.

And as far as I'm concerned, "boobs" stays. I had a talk with one feminazi'ish attendee on friday about the cards and she was bitching about them being sexist and I asked "why". Of course her answer was the "boobs". I said, "Look, most of the attendees are guys. Most of the goons are guys. Most of the rest of the goons are girls who also like boobs." On top of that I had to explain to her that if her immediate response is to ASSUME that the only actual option for that punch is for HER to explicitly show us her boobs, then she misses the entire hacker spirit mentality.

After that she said "You're right. That's an excellent point".

Flea and I also did an extremely scientific and valid study where we randomly picked two female attendees that had their "boobs" punched and asked them if they were offended in any way by the cards. Their responses both were not only "no", but "do you want to see them again?".

Margin of error on the study is approximately 0.05%.

[Gadsden]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I personally found much sexism result in the "boobs" part of the card. The lady Goons saw more female boobs than did all the male Goons put together. This is sexist... why should women get all the fun? EQUAL BOOBAGE FOR ALL!!

In all seriousness, I agree with what CHS said.. the hacks guys and girls did for that one were awesome. Sweet Chocolate Jesus folks.. if you don't like the rules, find a creative way around them, don't get pissed off and snivel! THAT is the Defcon way!

I enjoyed the hell out of them. I talked to more attendees than ever before.. it seems to break the ice and get folks having fun.

[FirmWarez]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

...
I heard that some feminazis were offended that women were being objectified because of the Boobs item, but I disagree with them.
...

I agree with your disagree. My Grrl (and wife of 13 years) had a blast with it. But then she drives a firetruck and shoots guns -- I mean, she's a FemiJew, and they have an entirely different agenda.

Now any female goons that'd want punch that item for her, I'm totally cool with that. Yeah, a guy has to have dreams.

Anyways, the whole goon card and wooden nickel thing was fun. Keep it up. I personally hope the PCness doesn't change it. Of course going with "flash" the goons could get some boob and a lifetime supply of USB drives.

Peace out and F.U.

-FirmWarez

[BlackOrchid]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Wow! Much discussion on boobs!

Seriously, - As a major feminist I have to say- The fact that I have boobs is not my power, my identity or authority of sexuality. I'm a female with boobs. All humans were born with boobs. My boobs or lack therein does not define me or anyone else. This is a ridiculous thread.

Showing your breast or not does not define who you are as a human being. So, the cards were fun and I wouldn't do certain things and I'm okay with that.. I live by MY constitution and most of us do but we don't project that onto others.

So the 'boob' thing to me is dev/nul.

[b0n3z]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

This is a ridiculous thread.

This thread is to get the feed back for us goons and to figure out how to make something bigger/better for DC20 OR if we should stop totally due to people hating the idea.

Yeah it happens to be about boobs due to that being the ONE thing people were mad about the most/had the most issue with on the card, but I had less than 10 pairs shown to me out of all four days and I handed out so many cards it's ridiculous.

I WAS however asked about a 100 times what the cards were, how they worked, etc and I told everyone that the boobs for ME personally was only girls and didn't have to be theirs but could be a different girls (like the women from the parties) or a friend who was willing to show hers. If someone would've came to me with that barbie doll, I probably would've punched their entire card to be honest because that is what we were wanting to see what who could play the game the best.