Goon Bribe Cards

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

If people with tooth decay tended to be excluded or differentiated from the hacker community (or the computer community in general), in anything other than a small percent, then it might be an issue. At the moment, it's not.
Prudishness is, largely, a person's own choice and beliefs.

Correlation of halitosis to tooth decay would likely yield closer match than unrelated, and really bad breath does impact socializing, even at Defcon.

My attempt to provide unlikely special interest groups is meant to demonstrate how someone will complain about some decision when the population is large enough, and we should not focus on special interests when they are not a party to the two consenting adults engaged in a behavior that is judged, "unacceptable."

As for prudish opinion being choice and belief, would that mean how we choose to judge what happens around us is a choice or belief? If so, then how we choose to allow the behavior of others to influence our belief or choices would seem to apply here. It is difficult for me to understand how peer pressure might compel me to show off my crotch, chest, or ass. Either I am interested, or I am not, and people telling me otherwise won't change that.

Is this different from creating an incentive for people to streak across the stage at Defcon, in order to earn points for their team in a scavenger hunt? I don't remember people getting upset about that; I remember watching a video of this with the room applauding, and cheering when this happened. It was a guy doing the streaking, and a majority of the audience was male. I don't think even a majority of the people cheering were gay. I think they were appreciating the action and how such a thing could happen at Defcon.

As for the non-sex-specific chest/crotch/ass - all for it.

Me too! More wangs, bushes, butts and boobs on display out at Defcon as part of events, contests, or strange challenges would entertain me. For these to just be put on display for the sake of vulgarity would not bring as much entertainment, but would not cause me to be unhappy about it either. The wearing of clothing is a social rule imposed by society often with laws. Exhibition of body parts required by society to remain clothed in public is an act of defiance, and an example of, "rules are guidelines." When people are encouraged to do this as part of an event or contest, it becomes another element of entertainment at Defcon, like a member of a team dragging a long piece of wood with a rope around the contest area, yelling, "ARG! I am a pirate and I am walking the plank!" (This happened, and was part of the scavenger hunt.) I have been equally entertained with people wearing, "tinfoil underwear," and wearing too many shirts and jumping into the pool.

I'm probably arrogant, but I consider this publishing of my opinions to be a matter of that sort of honesty.

Awesome! It is good to express opinions. It is great to know your interests, what you like and what you do not.

Everyone has different likes and dislikes. Telling people the things they as consenting adults enjoy with other people that are consenting adults are wrong, bad, *unacceptable*, or not allowed sounds a great deal like persecution of groups based on, "deviant," or, "aberrant," behavior. Similar items come up in the history of the US:
* Breast feeding babies in public
* Kissing in public
* Same-sex kissing in public
* Men in public don't have to cover chests, but women do.
* Being seen in public wearing just undergarments causes many people to feel more self-conscious than when they wear a bathing suit, event if more skin is exposed when wearing a bathing suit.
* Women wearing mens' clothing
* Men wearing womens' clothing

Here are two questions on this:
* Is a request for other people to deny their freedom of expression a kind of censorship?
* Aren't many kinds of censorship sold as ideas based on an ideas that it is for, "the common good" ?

[I'd really like to get political here, but for the forum rules.]

The DEFCON salute is the middle finger, and InfoSec people make a living out of telling companies: "you're doing it wrong." IMO, 'boobs on bribe card' is 'doing it wrong'.

Isn't that like telling someone that the beliefs they have, and how they feel, or how they would like to have fun with other consenting adults is a case where they are, "doing it wrong" ?

I guess this is why I have problems with people being asked to stop a behavior by someone that is neither of the people engaged in the action. It reminds me too much of similar kinds of attitudes applied to people that enjoy a different lifestyle,and has been repeated throughout U.S. history.

Let us consider a change. Swap-out "boobs" on the card for "kiss a goon." In this way, we remove,"sex," from the card, and displace the issue of, "sex," into 3 possible combinations with consent:
* The Adult Human, only.
* The Adult Goon, only.
* Both the Adult Goon and the Adult Human
(Neither having consent is not an entry with consent so was omitted from the list)

The Adult Human can say no, and the game ends, as they are no longer consenting.
The Adult Goon can say no,and the game ends, as they are no longer consenting.
They can both say yes, and a kiss can happen.

None of these compels me to want to kiss a goon or not; either I feel that is something I would be interested in doing, or I do not. Being urged, or pushed by peer pressure will not change what I want to do.

Does this replacement illustrate some of the issues I have with this ?

Also a fine line, and I've mentioned it before. I think Hacker Jeopardy gets a bit more leeyway, as the Vana Vinyl is performing, and as a character is very much in power. **shrugs**

In that one case, I think the Vinyl Vana was a hired stripper, not a defcon attendee, goon, or staff.

I just don't agree that concerns with the implementation, even if brought up by 'femnazis', should be disregarded or downplayed.

If I came across this way, I apologize; that was not my intention.

My intention was to express my unhappiness in how a special interest, ANY special interest that is NOT one of two consenting adults (only an observer) might sufficiently encourage a change in behavior be imposed against two consenting adults because of behavior observed by the special interest of these consenting adults, or worry the special interest has about how the actions of consenting adults may harm people that witness them engaging in a behavior that is judged unacceptable by the special interest.

There was a time when [two consenting males kissing || woman breastfeeding her child || .*] in public was unacceptable because there was worry [they were hurting each other with their misplaced feelings || it was disgusting and distracting], or people that witnessed this would suddenly [turn gay || acquire an oral fixation ] because of peer pressure or simple observation.

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

From a red shirt goon perspective the "bribe" cards were awesome. It was fun for both me and those who approached me with it.

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Vinyl Vanna was NOT a hired stripper. She was an attendee for 4 years. And...She is my wife. Not a joke.

Yup.

Correlation of halitosis to tooth decay would likely yield closer match than unrelated, and really bad breath does impact socializing, even at Defcon.

My attempt to provide unlikely special interest groups is meant to demonstrate how someone will complain about some decision when the population is large enough, and we should not focus on special interests when they are not a party to the two consenting adults engaged in a behavior that is judged, "unacceptable."

As for prudish opinion being choice and belief, would that mean how we choose to judge what happens around us is a choice or belief? If so, then how we choose to allow the behavior of others to influence our belief or choices would seem to apply here. It is difficult for me to understand how peer pressure might compel me to show off my crotch, chest, or ass. Either I am interested, or I am not, and people telling me otherwise won't change that.

Is this different from creating an incentive for people to streak across the stage at Defcon, in order to earn points for their team in a scavenger hunt? I don't remember people getting upset about that; I remember watching a video of this with the room applauding, and cheering when this happened. It was a guy doing the streaking, and a majority of the audience was male. I don't think even a majority of the people cheering were gay. I think they were appreciating the action and how such a thing could happen at Defcon.


Me too! More wangs, bushes, butts and boobs on display out at Defcon as part of events, contests, or strange challenges would entertain me. For these to just be put on display for the sake of vulgarity would not bring as much entertainment, but would not cause me to be unhappy about it either. The wearing of clothing is a social rule imposed by society often with laws. Exhibition of body parts required by society to remain clothed in public is an act of defiance, and an example of, "rules are guidelines." When people are encouraged to do this as part of an event or contest, it becomes another element of entertainment at Defcon, like a member of a team dragging a long piece of wood with a rope around the contest area, yelling, "ARG! I am a pirate and I am walking the plank!" (This happened, and was part of the scavenger hunt.) I have been equally entertained with people wearing, "tinfoil underwear," and wearing too many shirts and jumping into the pool.


Awesome! It is good to express opinions. It is great to know your interests, what you like and what you do not.

Everyone has different likes and dislikes. Telling people the things they as consenting adults enjoy with other people that are consenting adults are wrong, bad, *unacceptable*, or not allowed sounds a great deal like persecution of groups based on, "deviant," or, "aberrant," behavior. Similar items come up in the history of the US:
* Breast feeding babies in public
* Kissing in public
* Same-sex kissing in public
* Men in public don't have to cover chests, but women do.
* Being seen in public wearing just undergarments causes many people to feel more self-conscious than when they wear a bathing suit, event if more skin is exposed when wearing a bathing suit.
* Women wearing mens' clothing
* Men wearing womens' clothing

Here are two questions on this:
* Is a request for other people to deny their freedom of expression a kind of censorship?
* Aren't many kinds of censorship sold as ideas based on an ideas that it is for, "the common good" ?

[I'd really like to get political here, but for the forum rules.]


Isn't that like telling someone that the beliefs they have, and how they feel, or how they would like to have fun with other consenting adults is a case where they are, "doing it wrong" ?

I guess this is why I have problems with people being asked to stop a behavior by someone that is neither of the people engaged in the action. It reminds me too much of similar kinds of attitudes applied to people that enjoy a different lifestyle,and has been repeated throughout U.S. history.

Let us consider a change. Swap-out "boobs" on the card for "kiss a goon." In this way, we remove,"sex," from the card, and displace the issue of, "sex," into 3 possible combinations with consent:
* The Adult Human, only.
* The Adult Goon, only.
* Both the Adult Goon and the Adult Human
(Neither having consent is not an entry with consent so was omitted from the list)

The Adult Human can say no, and the game ends, as they are no longer consenting.
The Adult Goon can say no,and the game ends, as they are no longer consenting.
They can both say yes, and a kiss can happen.

None of these compels me to want to kiss a goon or not; either I feel that is something I would be interested in doing, or I do not. Being urged, or pushed by peer pressure will not change what I want to do.

Does this replacement illustrate some of the issues I have with this ?


In that one case, I think the Vinyl Vana was a hired stripper, not a defcon attendee, goon, or staff.


If I came across this way, I apologize; that was not my intention.

My intention was to express my unhappiness in how a special interest, ANY special interest that is NOT one of two consenting adults (only an observer) might sufficiently encourage a change in behavior be imposed against two consenting adults because of behavior observed by the special interest of these consenting adults, or worry the special interest has about how the actions of consenting adults may harm people that witness them engaging in a behavior that is judged unacceptable by the special interest.

There was a time when [two consenting males kissing || woman breastfeeding her child || .*] in public was unacceptable because there was worry [they were hurting each other with their misplaced feelings || it was disgusting and distracting], or people that witnessed this would suddenly [turn gay || acquire an oral fixation ] because of peer pressure or simple observation.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Vinyl Vanna was NOT a hired stripper. She was an attendee for 4 years. And...She is my wife. Not a joke.

This event I am typing about was several years ago at the Alexis Park, maybe Defcon 10, 9 or 8. Are we thinking about the same event? Sorry to you and your wife for claiming she was a stripper if she was the one that I remember.

Back at the Alexis Park, the was a group running at least one of the Hacker Jeopardy contests that talked about hiring strippers to work the role of Vinyl Vana, though probably as a different name. (I heard this from one of the organizers.)

(I was not referring to any HJ at the Riv or Rio, as I don't think I remember any of the people playing this role of Vinyl Vana becoming topless.)

[Edit --addition--:
Also, the events I describe above (tinfoil underwear, jumping into a pool while wearing too many shirts, etc. are all things that have happened over many different defcon,not at Defcon 19.]

Thanks again for the help of you and Neil at the badge registration. :-)

Yup.

[TechnoWeenie]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Ok, so I totally get the concept of the cards. I even like the idea. I just wish some of the attendees used more ‘common sense’ when asking to see ‘boobs’. I know my WIFE was really annoyed by the way folks asked her. Granted, in her culture that is a very serious offense. She took it rather well, except for one individual that was likely drunk, crass, and just rude to her.

That one incident alone sways me over to the “find an alternative object on the next card”

we know common sense sometimes just does not happen at DC.

TW

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Nah... I thought the guy was ref the current Vanna, not the one at the AP. Context is everything and apparently I haven't quite 'come to' yet out of my post con trauma coma.

No prob with the reg help. I am always down to help out. A special thanks to Minor Malfunction this year as well for his help at the desk.

That being said... this year the Rio was very uptight about anything shown on stage - even when their own gogo dancers showed more skin than our 'women' on stage. Dunno if that will change for the future...

Anyway...sorry for the confusion -

-blak

This event I am typing about was several years ago at the Alexis Park, maybe Defcon 10, 9 or 8. Are we thinking about the same event? Sorry to you and your wife for claiming she was a stripper if she was the one that I remember.

Back at the Alexis Park, the was a group running at least one of the Hacker Jeopardy contests that talked about hiring strippers to work the role of Vinyl Vana, though probably as a different name. (I heard this from one of the organizers.)

(I was not referring to any HJ at the Riv or Rio, as I don't think I remember any of the people playing this role of Vinyl Vana becoming topless.)

Thanks again for the help of you and Neil at the badge registration. :-)

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

long, well thought-out post

I agree totally with the 'two consenting adults' thing. I have no issue with anyone, male, female, etc., showing theirs (or someone else's) breasts to a goon, male, female, etc.

As for 'kiss a goon' - entirely acceptable.

My issue is that, as a semi-official event, having something arguably 'sexist' on the bribe card changes the color of the con a bit.
To me, a bribe card with "swag, (6x)cold drink(s), personal favor, act of violence" says "goons like stuff, and like to be bribed. you, as an attendee, can do that."
when you add 'boobs' to the mix, to me it says "oh, and women are here for their sexuality."

Two consenting adults can do whatever (legal/ethical) thing they want. really.


---


DEFCON has queercon, which is great, and the community is generally very inclusive. I think most of us will agree that, if instead of queercon, we had a 'cisnormal only' rule at the con, that it would be a BAD THING. Fewer awesome gay people would attend, and the discourse would not be as open/free.

'boobs' reads that way to some people. it says, "in this event, at this con, women are valued for their sexuality first. If you don't like being objectified, maybe you shouldn't participate in the card, or possibly the con".
Some people like being objectified. Some people don't see it as objectification. Some people do. (and not a small percentage either, I would assert)

I think I've gone overly ranty on this thread. On the grand spectrum of things, 'boobs' on the bribe card is relatively minor. Again, two consenting adults - go at it. But, when creating public speech - like the bribe card publication, keep in mind that you're not engaged with another 'consenting adult' yet.

The recipient of your speech doesn't have a right to not be offended, but I think society is a better place when the recipient can expect to not be excluded.

[g3k_]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

On the topic of boobs and goons, I have to say that I thought I made a mistake wearing my red Bazinga shirt from Big Bang Theory, putting up with being asked for directions, but being flashed, getting free booze and other general tomfoolery was worth it.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I agree totally with the 'two consenting adults' thing. I have no issue with anyone, male, female, etc., showing theirs (or someone else's) breasts to a goon, male, female, etc.

As for 'kiss a goon' - entirely acceptable.

My issue is that, as a semi-official event, having something arguably 'sexist' on the bribe card changes the color of the con a bit.
To me, a bribe card with "swag, (6x)cold drink(s), personal favor, act of violence" says "goons like stuff, and like to be bribed. you, as an attendee, can do that."
when you add 'boobs' to the mix, to me it says "oh, and women are here for their sexuality."

Two consenting adults can do whatever (legal/ethical) thing they want. really.


---


DEFCON has queercon, which is great, and the community is generally very inclusive. I think most of us will agree that, if instead of queercon, we had a 'cisnormal only' rule at the con, that it would be a BAD THING. Fewer awesome gay people would attend, and the discourse would not be as open/free.

'boobs' reads that way to some people. it says, "in this event, at this con, women are valued for their sexuality first. If you don't like being objectified, maybe you shouldn't participate in the card, or possibly the con".
Some people like being objectified. Some people don't see it as objectification. Some people do. (and not a small percentage either, I would assert)

I think I've gone overly ranty on this thread. On the grand spectrum of things, 'boobs' on the bribe card is relatively minor. Again, two consenting adults - go at it. But, when creating public speech - like the bribe card publication, keep in mind that you're not engaged with another 'consenting adult' yet.

The recipient of your speech doesn't have a right to not be offended, but I think society is a better place when the recipient can expect to not be excluded.

Thanks for the reply and continuing to discuss this. :-)

This helps to narrow down the scope of issues. I'm going to try to list the ones I recall from this discussion, so they can be addressed:
* Having an "item" to present, acquire, or provide that can only be provided by one sex appears to be sexist. (This is then followed to assert side-effects associated with sexism; you have described a few.)
* For some people, receiving such a request is an insult, or causes them to feel awkward. (TW's wife, and if there was one, there were likely more that remain silent.)
* The "Image" of Defcon may be harmed by having this appear as an officially sanctioned eventand be associated with, "sexism."


The counter to the first has been:
"Boobs need not be literal, and hackish attacks against this specific request with an unexpected alternate or substitution."

Which is then countered with:
"But it is still sexist"


For the second one, there are really only 3 solutions that I see:
1) Gag and silence the speech of the goons and disallow bribe cards in the future.
2) Allow the cards to continue with a substitution that would eliminate this request that insults a group of people, or causes a group of people to feel awkward at the request.
3) Leave the cards, "as-is," and say, "F.U." to people's feelings.

I do not like item 1.
People that complained about this item on these cards don't like item 3.
Through our discussion here, I don't think anyone has disagreed with the previously proposed item 2.


The last one is a subjective issue, and the, "image," of Defcon may be enhanced according to some, or tarnished according to others, and a third group just won't care. As a result of this, there is no universal answer, or compromise for this last item. It would be like arguing over opinions of which flavor of ice cream is the best.


Are there any other issues beyond what is summarized above? Any more counter-arguments than what has been listed? What else?

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

The counter to the first has been:
"Boobs need not be literal, and hackish attacks against this specific request with an unexpected alternate or substitution."

This. If you can't find a vulnerability or weakness in the system, GTFO.

"Veni, Vidi, Vici"

[Dallas]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

F.U. - Item 3 and Chocolate.

No seriously, if a girl goon wanted to add Dck or Boobs - fine - dont care. But DONT make Defcon the same as Blackhat or many other cons where everything is so..BLAH. Bring on the streakers..boobs and beer..do it out in the open..make it interesting. Are you PBS or HBO?

Side note - This is why I am not quite in favor of Defcon for kids, I'm all for them learning and having a place, just not here - not there - maybe age 16 and above..but even that gets us close to legal issues. What happens when 16 year old flashes her boobs..or such? Jailbait on so many levels. This is a Casino in Vegas, Vegas figured out kids were not a good mesh a long time ago. Send the kids to MakerFair - they will have more fun and be welcomed to the same type of learning environment. If the kids continue to come we will have to cut out what has made Defcon fun - and we will be playing Sprout on the TV's instead of DTV.

Thanks for the reply and continuing to discuss this. :-)

For the second one, there are really only 3 solutions that I see:
1) Gag and silence the speech of the goons and disallow bribe cards in the future.
2) Allow the cards to continue with a substitution that would eliminate this request that insults a group of people, or causes a group of people to feel awkward at the request.
3) Leave the cards, "as-is," and say, "F.U." to people's feelings.


The last one is a subjective issue, and the, "image," of Defcon may be enhanced according to some, or tarnished according to others, and a third group just won't care. As a result of this, there is no universal answer, or compromise for this last item. It would be like arguing over opinions of which flavor of ice cream is the best.

e?

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Thanks for the reply and continuing to discuss this. :-)

This helps to narrow down the scope of issues. I'm going to try to list the ones I recall from this discussion, so they can be addressed:
* Having an "item" to present, acquire, or provide that can only be provided by one sex appears to be sexist. (This is then followed to assert side-effects associated with sexism; you have described a few.)
* For some people, receiving such a request is an insult, or causes them to feel awkward. (TW's wife, and if there was one, there were likely more that remain silent.)
* The "Image" of Defcon may be harmed by having this appear as an officially sanctioned eventand be associated with, "sexism."

. . .
Are there any other issues beyond what is summarized above? Any more counter-arguments than what has been listed? What else?

I think some people think an issue is:
* there are boobs in public view! think of the childrens!
[I don't know if this an actual issue to anyone. it's not to me. this would, presumably, be the anti-DCKids-issue.]

I consider your second listed point [insult / akwardness] closer to the heart of the issue than the first [only women can present 'boobs'].

also, on the third point, my caveat would be - the wider 'image' of DEFCON in popular culture doesn't matter so much as the image/perception of DEFCON to competent female hacker types who are considering going, but would choose not due to perceived sexism.

I think you've summed up the issue pretty well, though.

By the way - chocolate ice cream is clearly the superior flavor.

[erehwon]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

F.U. - Item 3 and Chocolate.

No seriously, if a girl goon wanted to add Dck or Boobs - fine - dont care. But DONT make Defcon the same as Blackhat or many other cons where everything is so..BLAH. Bring on the streakers..boobs and beer..do it out in the open..make it interesting. Are you PBS or HBO?

Side note - This is why I am not quite in favor of Defcon for kids, I'm all for them learning and having a place, just not here - not there - maybe age 16 and above..but even that gets us close to legal issues. What happens when 16 year old flashes her boobs..or such? Jailbait on so many levels. This is a Casino in Vegas, Vegas figured out kids were not a good mesh a long time ago. Send the kids to MakerFair - they will have more fun and be welcomed to the same type of learning environment. If the kids continue to come we will have to cut out what has made Defcon fun - and we will be playing Sprout on the TV's instead of DTV.

I completely agree with Dallas, I come to Defcon because of the weirdness, antics, a little pushing of the limit. Its the one event the community where lets its hair down and enjoys itself. There really should be more streaking like one attendee did some years back, and I tried pretty hard to get Flea's "Ass Club for Men" to make an appearance at the 312 party.

As far as the kids issue goes, I'm on the fence here but leaning against having kids wandering around (while supervised) While I'd love bringing my nephews out and showing them what Uncle erehwon does, I can't see having to explain to their mum all the new language skills they've picked up, and why PedoBear is humping an attendee in barely a bikini and while all nice and cute, should be avoided like the plague!

[Ellen]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

1. As a girl and a "prude", I have no issue at all with other girls showing their boobs to whomever they like, provided (as Cot said) all parties are consenting adults.

2. It was fairly clear to me from the start of the con that the gender and attractiveness of boobs accepted depended entirely upon the preference/sense of humor of the goon receiving the peek. At no point did I feel the card itself was gender biased. (Or even, as mentioned, required actual flashing of your own breasts.)

3. Despite being handed a card, at no point did I feel obligated to complete any of the tasks on it. (Though, to be honest, I probably did considering my S.O. was technically a goon and I was caring for him all con.) There are a lot of questionable contests at the con. If you don't like one, ignore it and do something else.

4. Anyone who thinks the cards could be mistaken for an officially sanctioned Defcon contest has probably never tried to compete in an officially sanctioned Defcon contest. The day you see someone walk on stage at closing and grab a black badge for their beer-purchasing and top-removing skills will be the last day you ever see me at Defcon.

5. Public exposure with minors present, in my opinion, falls in the same category as any other illegal tomfoolery. A girl who would flash a bunch of kids is just as responsible for her own mistake as someone who would pull a fire alarm or damage hotel property. Sure, it is a valid fear for the parents, but it should be handled on an individual basis. The cards don't magically turn people into idiots.

6. Rude behavior (aka - Approaching women asking to see their breasts) falls in the same category. Some people are just d-bags. If you feel legitimately harassed or threatened, that is what security is for. Hopefully it never goes that far.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I'm going to be honest and straightforward heres an analogy.

Goons represent DEF CON. If DEF CON Was the Govt, GOONS are the Marines/Army/Navy/etc etc.

The Army can't tomorrow decide that for extra fun and a possible promotion you CAN show your superior officer your boobs ( however you accomplish it) as the Government would be pretty pissed.

The general public would assume whatever the Army does it has the Governments approval. That is the problem with the goon card, the boobs and violence slots stepped over the line. It made US as in DEF CON appear to be hypocrites in our goals to eliminate sexism and harassment. Despite the small percentage of con goers that post on the forums and the "old timers" a lot of people do think that in this instance it was dumb as shit.

There were over 12k people who attended, many of them are not you, many of them are not the old crowd, not on the forums, and many this was their first or second con, there is new blood and they don't tolerate the buisness as usual antics we used to have. There have been assaults, rapes, harassment, sexism, and gay bashing at other cons over the last few years. This has changed people attitudes on what used to be okay joking and behavior, the general con goers started adopting a zero tolerance approach and not to say things are going politically correct, but more like socially aware. Just because these things don't happen at our con or don't happen often does not mean that we should be excluded from changing out behavior too.

I guess we don't need to stop using win 2k because WE CAN secure it, and it works just FINE for US, never mind the fact that everyone else is ahead of us.


Not every thing we do, every party, every joke, every day has to be filled with something out of the hangover or a bachelor party. There has been a change in atmosphere, and maybe because I wasn't at con, people felt comfortable going to me, maybe because I spent three days reading hundreds of posts of feedback that I feel I grasped the attitude of con. Maybe because I've been around for many years I pick up what you deny, People don't want to complain to goons. They don't want to complain to someone who they don't think would listen ( if you're wearing the card why do you care) and they don't want the disapproval of being told they are a humorless tool who is not worth your time.

People were upset. People did think the goons were being ignorant sexist jerks. The fact that you post on here as a representative knocking people who did complain as feminazis, further illustrates this. Actually can anyone tell me when Kallhar DOESN'T COMPLAIN? I'll bake you cookies.

I think that the bribe cards were an incredibly good idea, I would LOVE to see them come back next year but if they did they would need to be modified. I hope that the goons from 23b can talk to Zac and Jeff and get permission to bring them back, with a more gender neutral approach. I think that a game that promotes you guys interacting with the attendees is great. I think that whoever thought this up did a good thing, but perhaps it wasn't thought all the way through, or didn't bounce off enough perspectives to offer up how it might affect the cons image. I do know that certainly it wasn't your intentions to be sexist or objectify others nor were you aware of DEF CON's new "policy" (said loosly as it's just a discussion now) to try to curb the tendency to market to just the one sex and gender, yes they are two diff things.