Goon Bribe Cards

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

People were upset. People did think the goons were being ignorant sexist jerks. The fact that you post on here as a representative knocking people who did complain as feminazis, further illustrates this. Actually can anyone tell me when Kallhar DOESN'T COMPLAIN? I'll bake you cookies.

Lets compare this to KidCon.

Lots of people thought it was a terrible idea, including many (if not all) of the goons. Those people and us goons were ignored. Probably because the vast majority of Defcon either didn't care or thought it was a good idea. I bring this up because the comparison was ALREADY brought up a few times in this very thread by other attendees.

So, it's a numbers game right?

No matter what we do at Defcon, SOMETHING is going to piss off SOMEONE. So we balance the number of pissed off people to non pissed off people, factor in the people that just don't care, and come up with a decision. Right?

So can we get some real solid numbers on the people that were actually pissed off?

Because I can tell you, as a Goon, I spoke to exactly one attendee that thought the cards were somewhat sexist. When I explained the nature of the game inside the spirit of Defcon she actually changed her mind. And she did start out kind of pissed.

So that was one person.

I did speak to LITERALLY HUNDREDS of attendees who thought the cards were awesome. MANY of those were women.

Did we get hundreds, or thousands of complaints about the cards? Or merely a handful or even "tens" of complaints?

I'd like to think that as fellow staff we would be included in these complaints and get some solid honest REAL numbers.

I think the problem that we're dealing with is simply a vocal minority. The VAST MAJORITY of people loved the cards or didn't care one way or the other. A very small minority doesn't like them and isn't backing down. Good for them. I think it's absurd to try to change Defcon to make an attempt to please those people or the mainstream. You're right, Defcon has changed over the years in many ways. A lot of people think that Defcon has changed for the worse, but most agree that Defcon has changed for the better. But the awesome part is that Defcon has changed on its own, not by management decisions or by making an attempt to cater to the mainstream. If Defcon changes to a kindler, gentler, less expletive-driven con, all the more power to it. But it should be the ATTENDEES who drive that change in mass numbers, not the staff trying to please very small vocal minorities.

I'm sure there are a few people that show up every year to burning man and complain about the drugs, noise, and displays of human sexuality all over the place too. but you don't see the management going "well, if we just cracked down on the tits, sex, nudity, and drugs EVERYONE would love the place".

We can't please all the people all the time, but we sure as hell pleased MOST of the people ALL the time at Defcon this year.

[charliex]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Well if it's going to happen someone might as well say that defcon is simply going to go for a mass market commercial approach and just get it over with, a lot of us still like to hold on to the belief there's a place to go to now and again that's still about freedom and against censorship.

Vegas is mostly either gambling or sex, most of the sex is marketed to males. Is that sexist or just simply economics?

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

[QUOTE=chs;122714. If Defcon changes to a kindler, gentler, less expletive-driven con, all the more power to it. But it should be the ATTENDEES who drive that change in mass numbers, not the staff trying to please very small vocal minorities..[/QUOTE]

It is changing, the con goers are not the same. I hate to point it out, but those of you on the forums ARE the vocal minority.

You want feedback, go look for it on twitter, facebook,etc not hard.

Like it or not, it was a management decision. Not mine, not yours, not "tens" or hundreds of peoples choices, but a handful of people namely DT & Zac. Because it was the right choice for the direction of our con to get with the times. I think this is the most idiotic conversation to be having. It's not socially acceptable, just because we are not Black Hat or Source, does not mean we can ignore the tides of change and conform. Progress doesn't happen overnight, but it needs to happen. Otherwise I guess it would be ok to put down, "Black guy with watermelon" on a card?

No one is saying to stop all original free thinking , Mohawks, middle fingers, and streaking, wild antics and unruly behavior doesn't have to stop, nor be at the expense of another or to imply an inheritant characteristic that we MUST be or do one thing in order to mold to the atmosphere. (skanks and strippers, wear vynil and flash our boobs). I guess maybe we should ask Queer Con to close it's doors and only let in non "straight" people now and they must pass teh gay test to gain entry. It's the same thing to me, bullshit.

I don't care what anyone says or thinks of me. I'm not a feminist, I'm not a politically correct person at all, but I am an equally opportunity jerk. No one MAKES me feel less of a person because of my sex, no one makes me offended, if those moments arise I choose to react that way, how I handle it will show maturity and tolerance to those with a different opinion than me. I wish EVERYONE was able to deal with shit like I do. but that's not the case, and I feel that it's my responsibility to stand up for those who can't for themselves, I also think that it's a preventative manner, we aren't saying lets cater to one sex, we aren't saying we are going to make con sway to one sex to make another feel better, more like eliminate the importunity for misinterpretation. People will be how they are, people can flash, people can sit in a corner and cry because they saw boob, people can come on here and complain because they didn't get enough hugs as a kid and therefore everything in Vegas should be free, whatever they can't say in the end that WE as a group ( which includes the complainers ) cater to any one group.

PS. Women are incredibly sexist, and it's offensive to people with half a brain to assume that men are the only ones guilty of sexism and harassment. Especially at con. At least men gut check eachother and call eachother out on being a douche, women egg eachother on far worse in my humble opinion.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Oh and it was the older goons, and con attendees who are having kids who have been asking for a kids event for years now. They don't expect defcon to change because they are bringing their kids, they are making a place where they CAN be to enjoy sharing this experience with the kids. Isn't that what we are about? You don't like that there are kids around, move, no one asked you to act differently because of it. those parents who are bringing there kids know full well what con is like and are choosing to accept its terms. No body asked you to wash a sippy cup and say shut the front door. So there are kids around, in their OWN event with their parents. Get over it.

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

You want feedback, go look for it on twitter, facebook,etc not hard.

Ok, so you can't show me any official feedback?

It's not socially acceptable, just because we are not Black Hat or Source, does not mean we can ignore the tides of change and conform. Progress doesn't happen overnight, but it needs to happen. Otherwise I guess it would be ok to put down, "Black guy with watermelon" on a card?

You just compared mardi gras style shenanigans to outright racism. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, then neither will I.

No one is saying to stop all original free thinking , Mohawks, middle fingers, and streaking, wild antics and unruly behavior doesn't have to stop.

So what is it? Socially inacceptable and akin to racism, or acceptable originality, free-thinking, mohawks, middle fingers, streaking (hey, that's just LIKE boobs), wild antics and unruly behavior?

[SkyDog]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Really? What started as a joke, ended up being a hoot for everyone that I talked to. During the duration of my time at the con, not a single person approached me and told me that they felt they were being objectified, of that their feelings were hurt. Most just laughed and smiled when they saw 'Boobs' on the card. Seriously. Boobs isn't a word that hurts. It's funny. Say it to yourself. 'Boobs'. It did not say 'objectify the female sex', or 'crush a woman's spirit'. It said 'Boobs' for chrissake. Let's examine the rest of the card. 'Personal favor'. Wow. That's a loaded one. It could be anything. Wash my car, do my taxes, or oral sex. Last I checked, none of the goons got any of those things in return. 'Violent Act' was spank him/her or something similar. The goon decided what act it was, and I assure you, it wasn't something that would leave a mark or permanently disfigure another human being. Were there reports of attendees being bludgeoned in the name of goon fun? 'Six Cold Drinks' could have been anything, but since what was most likely available was alcoholic, are we saying that we condone alcoholism? Any of the items on that card could be taken the wrong direction if one chose to do so. The idea that we have to change everything and make it a bland con so that a few people don't get butthurt really flies all over me. We have queercon, sexy women at Hacker Jeopardy, and saucy dames in the DefCon 19 advert video. My goodness becky, there were even scantily clad women roaming the halls on their own accord. Whatever should we do.

We are adults. If a few people out of the 10,000+ attendees get a little miffed over the word 'Boobs' on the bribe card, then maybe they should take a look at themselves. It's a word. It's not a racial slur. It's not a word linked to violence or hate. It's what kids use to refer to breasts... or hooters, casabas, melons, Splazoinkas, etc. Would the addition of 'wangs' be offensive? I know! Let's change it to 'Body part - Goon Choice'. That would solve all of the problems, and remove that offensive word from the card.

Ok, the goons talked about the cards in depth before they were made. We all agreed that we wanted to do something to interface with the attendees more, and paid for them from our own pockets. We also bought wooden nickels to give out also, and this too came from our own pockets. I gave them out to people who filled their cards, and people who helped, thanked us, or just looked like it would make their day for someone associated with the con to spend a moment to talk to them. I personally got great responses from the crowd, and I feel like this year I was able to spend more time talking to the attendees and having a good time with them than years past. All that I have heard is that the attendees found us kind and courteous.

Look. I have worked at cons, and I have run them. I understand having your name on the bottom line. If the responses you got were not on the forums, and we're the vocal minority, then where did the majority talk? Where are the responses? I'd be keen to see the emails that pertained to the goons. In fact, I believe that it's appropriate that the goon staff be able to see emails that talk about how we are perceived, or detail how we did a good or a bad job. If so many people were upset by a single word on a card, then your inbox MUST have been overflowing with comments. Surely you can forward the first 100 or so that complain about our bribe cards. That's roughly 1% of the attendees at the con, right? So either the other 99% are just fine, or they are cowering in the corner, scared of the big ole bad goons in red shirts. Or, quite possibly, the other 99% don't care, or don't feel it was a big enough deal to actually send an email.

Having spent 6 years as a goon, I know this for certain. Goons spend the majority of con answering questions, giving directions, handling problems, doing public relations for the con, watching for trouble, enforcing press rules, and walking from place to place while doing so. We do so not for a paycheck, but because we feel a sense of duty to ensure that the attendees are safe, and they get the con experience that they paid for. We didn't do the bribe cards with the intent of hurting feelings, or crushing spirits. We did it in the spirit of fun, camaraderie, and plain old crazy con antics. If we wash the con with the antiseptic of business, it will become stale, and lifeless. I know you have to handle business in the back room. Don't let it onto the con floor where the attendees can feel it. DefCon is about the people having a good time. When we censor the cards, cleanse the hallways of half naked women parading in their naughty outfits, and take the fun out of the con, the attendees will let you know their displeasure by not attending anymore. It's not because of the word 'Boobs' on a piece of cardstock.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Ok, so you can't show me any official feedback?



You just compared mardi gras style shenanigans to outright racism. If you're not going to take this discussion seriously, then neither will I.



So what is it? Socially inacceptable and akin to racism, or acceptable originality, free-thinking, mohawks, middle fingers, streaking (hey, that's just LIKE boobs), wild antics and unruly behavior?

No, because it's not my job to prove anything to you. If you want to see it go on freaking twitter and search for it. Do I have emails I would forward, no, and even if I did It would be incredibly insensitive to share them. Everything's publicly stated, you go do the work to look for it, I do enough as it is.

@_Defcon_ and #DEFCON will get you started.


I will compare mardi gras antics and racism as you incorrectly tried to sum up my statement. Coming from New Orleans and going to school in the french quarter I actually CAN figure out the difference in doing this in a carnival setting and at a f-ing conference (where you are supposed to be representing the conference). Sorry, but show me your tits for beads and a bunch of drunk co-eds is not the same as a conference setting in Las Vegas. I think that the same would ring true of those chicks on the balcony may flash but when they go inside they don't expect security, the bell hop, and the guy at registration to ask them. Those guys might think it, might want to, might look, but they know Harrah's would fire them for asking.


My point about the racism still stands, that's not Okay anymore because people came to their senses, some people may still FEEL that way but they certainly know better that's not socially acceptable and to go around advertising their ignorance.

You don't have to exclude, objectify, or otherwise be insensitive to have a good time. If you do, maybe you don't have much creativity. An Act of violence? Anyone care to defend and justify why THAT is on the damn card? Or is a violent act in good fun? Shall we play around with that too? Oh did you mean they should show you a video game, or two barbie dolls fighting? It's actually worse than the sexist boob crap, and I'm excited to see you come up with why THAT is okay? I


I was taking the conversation seriously, I'm sorry you feel you're owed something you're not. Form a committee. I'm done and not going to bother with a troll fest, I said my peace and I don't care to have justify it, it's not going to change.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

When we censor the cards, cleanse the hallways of half naked women parading in their naughty outfits, and take the fun out of the con, the attendees will let you know their displeasure by not attending anymore. It's not because of the word 'Boobs' on a piece of cardstock.

What no one wants to listen to is it's not about changing the con. It's about making sure that those actions are not to be associated with DEF CON staff. I don't think anyone once mentioned censorship or stopping the freedom that occurs at con naturally jsut by having the message that comes down from staff be one of neutrality and equality in regards to sexism.

Do you see DT running around con asking to see boobies? That would be pretty immature and unprofessional not to mention tells everyone who IS OFFENDED by the mere suggestion of nippelage that DEF CON is a sexist atmosphere because DT want's boobies. Does that mean he doesn't look or doesn't enjoy it? Would he send a goon to evict said boobie? I don't know, I won't speculate, but if you can read sarcasm.....

Does asking staff not to ask attendees for things that COULD offend and be misconstrued as sexist, offensive and idiotic mean we will stop Hacker Pimps from having strippers. NO. They are different things, and honestly, I am really getting frustrated how that's the fun you could be having is first thing you think will be stolen from you, rather than our public image.

[charliex]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I searched around for a bit and couldn't find anything, seems like it takes longer to write all that out that post a few fb/twitter links to help with whats obviously a controversial point..

Also has anyone actually showed why having 'boobs' is sexist ? sexual objectification , sure why not, sexism , i don't know if it is. Sexism towards men, maybe.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Also has anyone actually showed why having 'boobs' is sexist ? sexual objectification , sure why not, sexism , i don't know if it is. Sexism towards men, maybe.

the issue, as I contend, is that having 'boobs' is part of a perpetuation of a culture of stereotypes and behaviors that disadvantage, disempower, and exclude a certain group of people. In this case, the group is people who are considered by themselves and society to be 'women'.

why is this the case?

1. the standard, surface reading of 'boobs' on the bribe card is: "show a goon your breasts".
Can we agree that that's actually the standard surface reading?
Yes, any hacker should be able to social engineer a non-breast replacement. A hacker could probably also find a way to submit "black guy with watermelon" without obtaining Citrullus lanatus.

before I go and write out "feminism 101", can we agree (or not), that an average attendee, on first reading the bribe card, would think it asks "show female breasts to a goon"?


Edit2: put edit1 in it's own post.

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Gentlemen! (And I use the term loosely.)

The rampant sexism in this thread is frankly appalling.

[chs]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

No, because it's not my job to prove anything to you. If you want to see it go on freaking twitter and search for it. Do I have emails I would forward, no, and even if I did It would be incredibly insensitive to share them. Everything's publicly stated, you go do the work to look for it, I do enough as it is.

@_Defcon_ and #DEFCON will get you started.

Actually, it kind of is your responsibility to prove this to me. You need to justify your statements. MANY of us can give you first-hand accounts of literally hundreds of attendees loving the cards. You are telling us that you got all kinds of complaints, yet you are keeping the complaints secret. Why?

I don't care what some random person barfed to the internet via twitter or facebook. I'm talking about actual verifiable complaints directed at Defcon senior staff via email or through the comment cards, or on the forums. Hell, if twitter is all you have, fine. Copy some twits.

Sorry, but show me your tits for beads and a bunch of drunk co-eds is not the same as a conference setting in Las Vegas.

The fuck? Have you ever BEEN to Defcon?

My point about the racism still stands, that's not Okay anymore because people came to their senses, some people may still FEEL that way but they certainly know better that's not socially acceptable and to go around advertising their ignorance.

I'll remember this when I'm hanging out at the sexist and classist topless pool at the Rio, drinking beer and staring at tits.

An Act of violence? Anyone care to defend and justify why THAT is on the damn card? Or is a violent act in good fun? Shall we play around with that too? Oh did you mean they should show you a video game, or two barbie dolls fighting? It's actually worse than the sexist boob crap, and I'm excited to see you come up with why THAT is okay? I

Again, have you ever BEEN to Defcon? Or have you managed to avoid all the spanking and flogging that goes on in the various parts of the conference and after-hours?

I actually mean this as a serious question. Do you attend Defcon? Yes, I know you are senior staff, and I know you are PRESENT at Defcon, but do you actually attend and participate? Your questions and statements lead me to believe that you see an entirely different Con than the 10,000+ attendees and goons see. Maybe you're spending too much time in the back rooms counting money, reading the twitter feeds, checking facebook statuses and thinking up new and more PC ways to make Defcon better. But myself and the fellow attendees are on the floor socializing with each other and have a great time.

I can't think of a Defcon I went to where I DIDNT spank a willing girl (and even a couple of guys). Spanking is a violent act. I also love it. So do girls. There's my justification.

[YenTheFirst]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

EDIT: one thing worth noting:
as a computer type, I usually like things to be straightforward, consistent, and as abstract/ free of outside context as possible. Maybe this applies to other people, I dunno.

The reason I say that, is, issues of sexism and racism inherintly aren't. They depend entirely on context. If slavery never happened, if persons of color didn't spend 100+ years on the short end of the stick, continuing through today in multiple facets, then "black guy with a watermelon" probably would be fine.

But it's not.

Similarly, if it weren't the case that women are victims of sexual assault more than men, women had equal representation at DEFCON, etc., then 'boobs' would probably not be a problem either.

That's not the case. Hackers like to make a point of going counter to or ignoring society, but in terms of public reaction, it's like ignoring the fact that air is ~28% oxygen. It doesn't matter if you don't like it, combustible materials at heat will burn in air.

Similarly, it doesn't matter if you don't like it, or if it's not your intent, sexual objectification and sexist behavior, in a sexist environment, will perpetuate said environment and encourage/enable future sexist behavior.
[at least, that's an axiom of feminist theory. that itself is debatable, but in terms of reasoning, I'm taking it as an assumption]

[stderr]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Actually, it kind of is your responsibility to prove this to me. You need to justify your statements. MANY of us can give you first-hand accounts of literally hundreds of attendees loving the cards. You are telling us that you got all kinds of complaints, yet you are keeping the complaints secret. Why?.

Sharing things like that would be insensitive, you clod. The THOUSANDS of people that complained to me asked to have their names withheld because they are quiet, sensitive, NON-RACIST, NON-SEXIST, NON-VIOLENT people who are unwilling to stir the pot. They left it up to me and Nikita, a noble martyr, to carry the torch for them.

I'll remember this when I'm hanging out at the sexist and classist topless pool at the Rio, drinking beer and staring at tits.

I'm sure you and the rest of the vocal minority will enjoy your classless, pedestrian endeavors.

I can't think of a Defcon I went to where I DIDNT spank a willing girl (and even a couple of guys). Spanking is a violent act. I also love it. So do girls. There's my justification.

Again, you are the vocal minority. I'll bet you even shame the great and wonderful name of Enya by listening to her soothing sounds while beating helpless women who don't know any better because they have been dominated by this patriarchal soceity for centuries.

GOOD DAY, SIR.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Sharing things like that would be insensitive, you clod.

I had planned to stay out of this discussion after summarizing the items of disagreement, but I see problems with where this discussion is going and want to insert a break and call a, "point of information":

It looks like we are, "talking past each other."

1) Is there or is there not agreement on the item: "It is okay for attendees (Humans) to show boobs, streak, prank, do silly things.

It looks like everyone seems to agree that this is acceptable and should not stop. Anyone disagree?

This is where there appears to still be disagreement:
2a) Goons (not Humans) should not be allowed to distribute these cards as-is?
2b) Goons (not Humans) should not be allowed to request silly actions if those actions could appear to be sexist [or other-ist]?
2c) Goons (not Humans) should have less freedom to request silly behavior than Humans? [unless it has been approved?]

Is it true that we all agree that "1" is not an issue, but the items of contention include one, some or all of the "2*)" items listed above?

I bring this up because it looks like people are getting frustrated because the items of contention have not been well defined.

Are there any other issues beyond those listed in 2a -> 2c?

I'm going to try to stay out of the rest of the argument unless it looks like the wheels on the bus are going to fall off.