Goon Bribe Cards

[docwho76]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Boobs, tits, melons, jugs, headlights, casabas, breasts

Now that's out of the way, lets get to the facts so far:

~12000 attendees at DC19
2-3 people complaining: Yen, Nikita, and maybe this xillwillx guy

The bribe cards were awesome! I had a "violent act" performed on me from an attendee and it was completely hilarious. And you know what? It got the attendees interacting with the goons in ways they normally wouldn't. That's pretty cool, to me DEFCON has always been about a different vibe and environment then any other conference I've participated in. And this was my 10th year of doing this, so its not like I'm new to this.

Later on, I was a recipient of "boobs". I did nothing to prompt this, I merely had my bribe card on my lanyard. So, obviously, this act of "boobs" was completely OK with the initiating party.

It is one thing to say "the card say boobs on it, that's sexist!" its another thing to have a card that says boobs on it and its up to both parties to interpret how they want to act on that. By saying that the word implies sexism you're assuming you know what someone is thinking and I think that's a load of horseshit, especially at DEFCON.

If there were people trying to pressure women into showing boobs that would be something to discuss but thats not what I am hearing here. Instead we're having a discussion on what it means to have a bribe card with the word "boobs" on it should mean or imply.

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?

The card says boobs. It doesn't say "women are only good for boobs". It doesn't say "you better show me boobs or else". It simply says boobs.

Lighten up.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

And I hate to shit in your punchbowl, but the incident that the person is referring to in those tweets was incorrectly reported. You see, the group of folks doing the whole 'shots4boobs' thing were attendees, not goons. I know this because we had some contact with them later on that night.

Also confused as to why @_defcon_ said we were discussing it internally as I'm not aware of any internal discussions going on relating to an issue that didn't involve my team. But hey, what do I know..

1. To defecate on your ho hos, They made that comment because when they complained to a goon they were not backed up. Something along the lines of" well if that's how DEF CON Feels then.."

2. I said that because we were having an internal discussion, it just didn't involve you at the time, but it was mentioned in the senior meeting at the end of con.

on to the other comments, I've been going and attending DEF CON for many years now.

I am a Goon.

as for your conspiracies, if I knew I would have had to PROVE it to a few people on the internet days later I guess I should've taken screen caps. I've already said I didn't get emails. I don't owe anyone anything, let alone spending hours hitting the back button on my @ reply list and copy pasting every little thing for one person who want's to make it out to be MY problem and I owe you something.

I tell you what, next time I'm sitting on my ass counting all of Jeff's money and sucking down handfuls of diamonds and unicorn peen I'll remember that I need to keep an accurate record of everything anyone ever does so I can prove it to someone on the internet later.

Just because you don't know me does not mean I'm some prude hiding around, I've done my fair share of stupid shit at con, bouncing, fist fights, drunken-ness, public intoxicated make out sessions, and all in all harassing people into further discrediting not only my reputation but others as well. To be fair though, no one knew I worked for DEF CON, Black Hat or DT at the time and non of you knew me. And even when they did and I became a little more involved in it, I'm still rowdy and when I'm done working I would like to ENJOY the con and it's people. so yes, I HAVE Attended DC and I love this con and everything about it. I work my ASS off the whole damn year long, I planned the conception and birth of my child around this con and I plan to work for it for the rest of my life. I deserve my say too, and I would be damn sure pressed to find someone with the balls to tell me to my face that I'm not a goon or I somehow don't know what this con is about

Oh and here's something you don't know. I had a woman change her workshop title, because it was sexist. The title was something along the lines of Girls rule boys drool. So it's not all one sided. On hanging out at the stripper pools: The Rio does not represent DEF CON. However YOU do. Those dancing girls do not represent DEF CON. Skydogs strippers at hacker pimps do not represent DEF CON. They may be part and parcel, but DEF CON is not responsible nor do we endorse or make any judgement on what attendees and private parties do. It's not fair to censor people that way, goons will step in where there is a problem of harassment or assault, but if someone complains that a stripper or a pillow fight is sexist, well tough because it's NOT OURS. We can't make other people change, the only thing we can do is model appropriate behavior. All that was asked was goons not distribute the cards as they were, since coming from them was a direct correlation and association as if it was coming from DEF CON. You can't be so daft as to assume that all attendees will just assume that everything you do has no merit as coming down as the almighty word of DEF CON. If that was the case, how is it you hold any authority over the crowd. They believe you are the law, the policy keepers makers and that you just MUST Know everything, from the time to the color of kaminskys crap that day. It's a shitty position, no one doubts it has downfalls as well as it's fun and awesomeness, but you ARE Defcon. Not me, nobody *knows* me, no one will just see me and know that I am the person who does this and that behind the scenes. But they do know the RED Shirts, and believe it or not, when they don't see me they not only praise you but talk shit about you too. :-p In piping into this thread I only meant to offer up what I knew was going on that wasn't seen. To give my thoughts on the matter, ( also clear MY OPINION, I'm not speaking for DT or DC in this thread, at least not sure if I did :-/ ) I didn't want to pick a fight or be the bad guy. I understood where you ( general you) was coming from, I just know what I've had to deal with lately and a perspective maybe you aren't familiar with. How I became a prude is beyond me...can I please get someone to vouch for me on that, heh.


Lastly. Everything Cotman said is right. Also, don't ever ever ever lump me in with feminism or Enya. If you call me a hippie, so help me gawd I will pasteurize your mothers blood with the lining of your entrails.


Please excuse my typing my KB sucks and I am very tired as well, I'll be embarrassed by it later I am sure.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cycXuYzmzNg

Well played. ( Not the point exactly but) Too bad people don't understand the difference between Offended and harassed, or Offended and Oppressed, or Offended and your mothers uncle. We don't actually disagree on much, as much as you would like to think we do. I think maybe we just communicate differently. I'm terribly famous for doing so and will never learn. That's my downfall and a delight in knowing me.

I wish I could convince Cotman to speak for me on the forums.

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

It got the attendees interacting with the goons in ways they normally wouldn't. .

That's why the cards should come back ( albeit modified but still) because it WAS a terrific idea.

Also, this never would have been an issue if attendees or a group did this, it's only an issue because it was from goon. If humans had boob on a punch card whoopity do. It's about the representation of GOONS doing it. I do hope they come back, because I want to play too ;-(

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

At the very least, it includes the 2500 recipients of the bribe cards.

So, at least 0.0012% of attendees didn't like the cards.

Do you have PROOF of that? How do I know your votes by proxy are valid. Do you have emails that all 2500 recipients would agree in favor of the boobs. As I said before the forums are your example of a " vocal minority" ( not calling you the minority) but if simple math works out I can imagine that the numbers of attendees versus active and posting forum users are seriously not equal in numbers. I'd guess ohh about a hellofafuckinglostski% of attendees have no idea we even talk about them on a little box late at night in your mothers basement. ( you and your generally speaking )

[Nikita]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Rumor has it, being gay destroys your ability to pick up on sarcasm.

Highwiz IS GAY!?!?!?!1!1? Oh I need to re-evaluate our friendship now that that bomb has dropped. I don't think my raving heterosexuality can cope with all of his queer.


Ps, Highwiz was trolling back, likely out of boredom.

[Dallas]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

1.> She is a goon.
2.> I make it a point not to mess with her, disagree yes, mess with no. Made that mistake with Noid. - once.
3.> She does drink unicorn pee
4.> She is a hard core defcon attendee

Last - I took a bit of time to actually think about it.

Unfortunately - Defcon will change. Burning man did, other fun things did. Get more people, get more opinions, get more objections, get more lawsuits, get more risk, get more people protecting their investment.

Bottom line, while we like to call Defcon our own, it is a business, one that makes money. If I owned Defcon, I'd shy away from 'some' aspects of the show and try to reign in issues as much as possible. As quoted, some events such as the HP party will change. Its inevitable. At some point a hotel is going to object or have a ordinance that prevents the HP from having a party that way. At some point a prank will go a bit to far and cause concern for the money making machine that is Defcon. Its about risk vs reward. Sure there will continue to be levels of surface pranks and fun, but the old days are gone, it happens, deal with it. Find another con that is smaller and less developed - you may have more fun. But just with Burningman which at one point was straight out Wild West ANYTHING goes - they had to pull it back or lose the event. Defcon is and will face the same thing. They must be able to legally represent they (the organization and volunteers) did not condone or support 'some' actions. Its called plausible deniability. If the pool is turned Purple, causing $$ in repairs or loss to patrons - even if a Defcon attendee does it - it causes pressure on Defcon the organization. If I choose to bring my own 'goon' card and pass them out for flashes next year, I can, no one can really stop me. They can throw me out, they can bar me from the premises, they can pull my badge. I have to weigh risk vs reward on pranks just as Defcon does.

So - yes these cards may not be Defcon approved. As written. They may change. Others may replace them again. If they go to far - Defcon WILL shut them down. I prefer a bit of negotiated playfullness (which is what this discussion is) vs a flat out NO or Ban. Defcon has typically shown leniency and willingness to ignore most pranks - so Im not concerned. Should I choose to..I can always go somewhere else.

Defcon is still alright -- will it be the con I would like to attend in five years -- not sure. At thats because I prefer the people over the talks, the Hi-Jinx over the mundane. Others feel different. Others will want (as previously posted) to bring their kids. Im not there yet - its still under construction in that area.

1.

I am a Goon.

as for your conspiracies, if I knew I would have had to PROVE it to a few people on the internet days later I guess I should've taken screen caps. I've already said I didn't get emails. I don't owe anyone anything, let alone spending hours hitting the back button on my @ reply list and copy pasting every little thing for one person who want's to make it out to be MY problem and I owe you something.

I tell you what, next time I'm sitting on my ass counting all of Jeff's money and sucking down handfuls of diamonds and unicorn peen I'll remember that I need to keep an accurate record of everything anyone ever does so I can prove it to someone on the internet later.

Just because you don't know me does not mean I'm some prude hiding around, I've done my fair share of stupid shit at con, bouncing, fist fights, drunken-ness, public intoxicated make out sessions, and all in all harassing people into further discrediting not only my reputation but others as well. To be fair though, no one knew I worked for DEF CON, Black Hat or DT at the time and non of you knew me. And even when they did and I became a little more involved in it, I'm still rowdy and when I'm done working I would like to ENJOY the con and it's people. so yes, I HAVE Attended DC and I love this con and everything about it. I work my ASS off the whole damn year long, I planned the conception and birth of my child around this con and I plan to work for it for the rest of my life. I deserve my say too, and I would be damn sure pressed to find someone with the balls to tell me to my face that I'm not a goon or I somehow don't know what this con is about

Oh and here's something you don't know. I had a woman change her workshop title, because it was sexist. The title was something along the lines of Girls rule boys drool. So it's not all one sided. On hanging out at the stripper pools: The Rio does not represent DEF CON. However YOU do. Those dancing girls do not represent DEF CON. Skydogs strippers at hacker pimps do not represent DEF CON. They may be part and parcel, but DEF CON is not responsible nor do we endorse or make any judgement on what attendees and private parties do. It's not fair to censor people that way, goons will step in where there is a problem of harassment or assault, but if someone complains that a stripper or a pillow fight is sexist, well tough because it's NOT OURS. We can't make other people change, the only thing we can do is model appropriate behavior. All that was asked was goons not distribute the cards as they were, since coming from them was a direct correlation and association as if it was coming from DEF CON. You can't be so daft as to assume that all attendees will just assume that everything you do has no merit as coming down as the almighty word of DEF CON. If that was the case, how is it you hold any authority over the crowd. They believe you are the law, the policy keepers makers and that you just MUST Know everything, from the time to the color of kaminskys crap that day. It's a shitty position, no one doubts it has downfalls as well as it's fun and awesomeness, but you ARE Defcon. Not me, nobody *knows* me, no one will just see me and know that I am the person who does this and that behind the scenes. But they do know the RED Shirts, and believe it or not, when they don't see me they not only praise you but talk shit about you too. :-p In piping into this thread I only meant to offer up what I knew was going on that wasn't seen. To give my thoughts on the matter, ( also clear MY OPINION, I'm not speaking for DT or DC in this thread, at least not sure if I did :-/ ) I didn't want to pick a fight or be the bad guy. I understood where you ( general you) was coming from, I just know what I've had to deal with lately and a perspective maybe you aren't familiar with. How I became a prude is beyond me...can I please get someone to vouch for me on that, heh.


Lastly. Everything Cotman said is right. Also, don't ever ever ever lump me in with feminism or Enya. If you call me a hippie, so help me gawd I will pasteurize your mothers blood with the lining of your entrails.


Please excuse my typing my KB sucks and I am very tired as well, I'll be embarrassed by it later I am sure.

[blakdayz]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Alright. While I normally would stay out of the way of a niki7a roll, much about what was presented about folks not liking them was NOT seen at all on the ground. I am not saying folks didn't complain, and I know some of the folks up top didn't like DEFCON being associated with boobs..but at this point that ship has already sailed. From Vinyl Vanna to the basic attendee...boobs are here to stay (on a card or not). I brought a large group of women this year, and while some didn't show boobs, NONE of them had an issue with the card. It was not sexist at all. In fact, they played on it and had guys show boobs to goons - which is a legit way to get a stamp.

I am wondering. Who said 'female boobs'? Now now... I know that I am not fair to this point (I bring women for the purpose of boob showing), but legitimately.... are we really going down this path? Do we think that we can not objectify the other sex now at DefCon. I know women who do it to men at the con 100% of the time and vice versa.

I mean... we have folks intercepting 4g and installing rootkits on android phones, yet we somehow get caught up on 'boobs'.

To take a line from SNL.... really? no.... really?

I take no position on whether it is right or wrong - because it is neither. For the record... I don't recall a single goon asking to see boobs - just attendees (male and female) offering them. If you got a complaint about a specific goon being unprofessional - then I understand. However... goons got offered to be flashed, and (as far as I know) we never ever ever ever ever asked to see them. To the point - some I wish I had not seen.


I honestly think folks are making too big an issue. I guess that alone is reason to moderate the cards next year so we don't have to get caught up internally...still... saying that we have to censor something at DEFCON makes me tear a little bit.

IMHO,

-blak

[eris]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Great noodly shiznit, people.
Goons represent Defcon. That's a given.
People like boobs(either boy or girl type.) Thats a given.
Goons want to see boob? Fine.
Give the damn goon bribe cards to contests and vendors and events that are unofficial "official" defcon and let THEM distribute them FOR the goons.
FFS. It's like watching a family yell and scream at each other over a drunken Thanksgiving dinner and WHY CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!? Weekend dad lets me see boobs on Sunday and Uncle Jerry's boobs are pierced so I can braid ribbons in them, yay!

I liked those cards. At the Scav Hunt table we had some set out for people to pick up and lots of folks did. We explained what they were, people left smiling, We had women come to our table and request we ask teams to fill them out for points. They were fun.

[shrdlu]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Here's hoping that I get the reply through. I've been having trouble maintaining a session (it times out), but I'm sure it's a personal problem. ;-}

I did want to comment on a couple of things. I note that I find the discussion of "boobs" to be amusing, at best, and yes, of course it's sexist (I believe that YenTheFirst represents her position well, and this may be the first time I've realized she was female). On the other hand, it's Defcon. I've seen worse, and heard worse, by far. Enough of that; it's not that important (really).

Ok, the goons talked about the cards in depth before they were made. We all agreed that we wanted to do something to interface with the attendees more, and paid for them from our own pockets. We also bought wooden nickels to give out also, and this too came from our own pockets. I gave them out to people who filled their cards, and people who helped, thanked us, or just looked like it would make their day for someone associated with the con to spend a moment to talk to them. I personally got great responses from the crowd, and I feel like this year I was able to spend more time talking to the attendees and having a good time with them than years past. All that I have heard is that the attendees found us kind and courteous.

[...]

Having spent 6 years as a goon, I know this for certain. Goons spend the majority of con answering questions, giving directions, handling problems, doing public relations for the con, watching for trouble, enforcing press rules, and walking from place to place while doing so. We do so not for a paycheck, but because we feel a sense of duty to ensure that the attendees are safe, and they get the con experience that they paid for. We didn't do the bribe cards with the intent of hurting feelings, or crushing spirits. We did it in the spirit of fun, camaraderie, and plain old crazy con antics. If we wash the con with the antiseptic of business, it will become stale, and lifeless. I know you have to handle business in the back room. Don't let it onto the con floor where the attendees can feel it. DefCon is about the people having a good time. When we censor the cards, cleanse the hallways of half naked women parading in their naughty outfits, and take the fun out of the con, the attendees will let you know their displeasure by not attending anymore. It's not because of the word 'Boobs' on a piece of cardstock.

I have multiple wooden nickels, and knowing that they were paid for out of your own pockets touches me even more. I saw the bribe cards. I thought they were funny. I would NEVER have taken one, because that would have meant I would have to interact with other people, and (as anyone who knows me would verify) I avoid that as much as possible.

I love the goons. There. I've said it. I do. The cards were funny.

I've been to Hacker Jeopardy, and seen Winn and G Mark in action. In addition (to support the other side), Nikita is not a prude. She may have her faults (don't drink pee, not even unicorn pee, it'll upset your stomach), but that's not one of them.

There were WAY too many people. I'm glad I left the guns at home, since it would be considered inappropriate for me to lessen the population in the way I wanted to. Signage was brilliant. I'm glad I made the decision to stay off site (Extended Stay, full kitchen, two room suite, quiet, and across the street from the Rio).

I may post later, if anyone ever starts a thread about Thank Yous (I may have to give up and start it myself).

Sorry, I know this was random, but hearing that the wooden nickels were a personal expense made them even more valuable to me than they already were.

[dc0de]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

[QUOTE=Nikita;122720]"I wish EVERYONE was able to deal with shit like I do. but that's not the case, and I feel that it's my responsibility to stand up for those who can't for themselves"

Well, the bribe cards were a way to TEACH people to stand up for themselves, and to think outside the box. We got lots of cold drinks that were NOT alcoholic, saw lots of mens boobs, and never badgered an attendee into taking off their shirt. In fact, the BEST BOOBS I saw at the con were on a barbie doll (the actual plastic doll), that a con attendee brought to show us boobs.

If sexism is rampant, and causing an issue with Twitter, Facebook and such, please, provide the links, documentation, and proof.

Just because WE know about the forums, doesn't mean that everyone does.

As of this reply, there are 7 members and 44 guests online. Just because we USE the forums, doesn't mean that we're the minority.

[phreck]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I had female approaching me constantly asking for punches on their cards. Old ones, young ones. Some dude showed me his boob. A bunch of chicks slugged me. Overall, i think the vast majority of people enjoyed this.

A woman, with her husband in tow asked for a punch on her card while i was standing with another goon. We stood and waited for HER to tell us which one she wanted. It ended up being an act of violence - point being, we were not running around SOLICITING. Its all in good fun, in the end it is a joke.

EVERYONE NEEDS TO FUCKING RELAX.

[dc0de]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Posted on a write up of Defcon Kids:

"For DefCon it was a very weird experience," Hadnagy said.

"Kids were hugging their moms and hanging out with them," he continued. "I am used to people walking around with Mohawk (haircuts) and boobs hanging out...I might have to go drink something."

I guess the whole boobs thing is being overplayed by one person on staff...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/08/0...ays-at-defcon/

Does anyone have any REAL PRESS reports of the "Defcon Boobpocalypse" that Nikita is reporting?

[Gadsden]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

I saw a girl try to smother her b/f with her boobs for both violent act and boobs.. he thanked me and gave me a beer. As he walked away he muttered "DAMN I LOVE DEFCON!"

Three card punches and two attendees skipping off with a smile on their faces == win

[TheCotMan]

Re: Goon Bribe Cards

Again, the item of contention that I see is not exhibition of boobs or not by attendees.

It isn't actually evidence of complaints or how many complaints.

If you all want to get to a resolution, the point of disagreement appears to be on limiting "speech" and "express" of goons on duty:

Should goons hand out cards like this one at Defcon?

This is the, "bone of contention."

Agreements on both sides:
* Cards are a great idea
* Cards encourage interaction with goons in new ways
* Cards humanize goons so they are not just yelling at people, but are people themselves.
* Boobs by attendees = ok, streaking by attendees in contests = ok, actions between two consenting adults (that are not goons) are ok.

Is this not true? Did I fail in this list?

So, you all can keep posting examples of how boobs, streaking or other things have been part of defcon, but that is just stating a point that already has agreement.

The items of complaint, and where we are now is still these:

Is it a good idea to limit "speech" and "express" of goons on duty?
Should goons hand out cards like this one at Defcon?
Should things like this need to be "approved" by some sort of manager before they are, "allowed" ?

All of these are *serious* issues. If you all want to actually resolve this, I would address these points.

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

^^^^

This.

I've stated my opinion already, but I am not a goon, not staff, and not management, so I have no stake beyond identifying the issues, expressing my opinions, and risking loss of future opportunities for things like this at future Defcon. (I am just a volunteer.)

Goons are not employees, they are volunteers. I like goons expressing things like this, and this card. (Previously stated.)

Either goons are free to express what they want, or they are not.

^^^^

This.