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i'm so very sorry and i apologize to Cot in advance for taking one of the URLs he posted and using it to steer this conversation right back towards the icebergs, but i have to respond to this one piece and -- by extension -- give some thoughts about DEFCON Kids
First and foremost, i'd like to see someone give this Mike Rothman character a good kick in the cunt. Get back to me if that happens, so i can take a little solace in it.
This entire article is presented in such a way as to make it seem like the debate for and against DEFCON Kids was somehow centered around some people's desires to shield their kids from Teh Evil H4x0rz who will infect their minds and pwn their virgin buttholes or god-knows-what else.
Maybe i just wasn't tuned in to the right channel in my brain, but the primary objection i saw among the hacker community regarding this new idea wasn't about insulating kids but rather isolating them.
Kallahar, myself, and others looked with skepticism upon the DEFCON Kids event because we believe (if i may speak for some other folk here) the following...
Those of us who expressed concern or even outright criticism did so because we questioned whether parents should be encouraged to corral their kids into a specific room and a particular area (an area that many people felt was going to be too "sanitized" for lack of a better term)
Let's put it another way, with a purely hypothetical set of numbers...
Heh, ok... hyperbole aside, i think we can agree that life for all parties young and old is better when kids are doing more hacker-y things. So then the real question sort of becomes just an issue of my hypothetical numbers above.
Did only 10 or 20% of the DEFCON Kids participants venture out into the scary-yet-awesome world that is DEFCON at large? i think that number was actually higher than many people initially predicted. Certainly higher than 10 or 20%. A lot of this had to do with Chris Hadnagy's awesome Social Engineering contest and similar tasks which were well-crafted.
If DEFCON Kids did not exist, would up to 40 or 50% of those potential kids have really come to Vegas at all? maybe not. Aside from the sad-looking clowns who stand near the entrances to pedestrian bridges and perhaps the lunacy that is a Carrot Top show, This city isn't really a kid-friendly place.*
Ultimately, i think that the DEFCON Kids event was more of a success than a lot of us (including myself) thought it would be. Kids didn't stay too isolated, in spite of the incredible distance of the room's location and such. The speakers who attended (and, indeed, i was asked to present and i accepted, even if it was on Sunday morning, heh) did a good job of bringing real content, not dumbed-down fluff.
We got some good press, albeit a lot was human-interest pieces or uninformed drivel like the article that started me on this whole crazy post.
For future years, i think it's not bad if we see DEFCON Kids continue... but with an even greater focus on opening up the event in a way that strongly encourages kids and their parents to see the rest of the con space. Maybe part of that is more contests driving people to the main event room. Maybe more of the "main" events offering some kid-friendly component.
I'm no longer in charge of Beverage Cooling, having handed it off to some key figures who are always out there every year... but i'd love it if there was a side-contest called, i don't know, "Slurm Cooling" (perhaps featuring just SunnyD dyed green or something) that runs at the same time and with the same fanfare as the "adult" events.
I'm eager to see how all of this turns out. I'm eager to see the debate continue. I'm eager to see DEFCON keep getting more awesome and to see more people of all ages getting involved.
* I was tempted to also mention the Bellagio Fountains, but any kid standing outside and watching them would likely be accosted by numerous fast-talkers trying to hand them advertisements for hookers or seedy buffet coupons.
First and foremost, i'd like to see someone give this Mike Rothman character a good kick in the cunt. Get back to me if that happens, so i can take a little solace in it.
This entire article is presented in such a way as to make it seem like the debate for and against DEFCON Kids was somehow centered around some people's desires to shield their kids from Teh Evil H4x0rz who will infect their minds and pwn their virgin buttholes or god-knows-what else.
Maybe i just wasn't tuned in to the right channel in my brain, but the primary objection i saw among the hacker community regarding this new idea wasn't about insulating kids but rather isolating them.
Kallahar, myself, and others looked with skepticism upon the DEFCON Kids event because we believe (if i may speak for some other folk here) the following...
There has always been a DEFCON Kids event at this con, we just had a different name for it before now. You know what we called it? DEFCON.
Those of us who expressed concern or even outright criticism did so because we questioned whether parents should be encouraged to corral their kids into a specific room and a particular area (an area that many people felt was going to be too "sanitized" for lack of a better term)
Let's put it another way, with a purely hypothetical set of numbers...
Scenario One - DEFCON Kids exists and runs
100 kids are brought to Las Vegas because of DEFCON and DEFCON Kids. All of them attend some of the DEFCON Kids sessions. About 10 or maybe even 20 of them venture out into the "real" con space and get to see loads more cool stuff and one day might grow up to take over the world. The 80 or 90 kids who only see DEFCON Kids are still better for the experience, but their eyes aren't "opened quite as widely" some would say.
Scenario Two - DEFCON Kids does not exist
Those 100 kids above? Yeah, many of their families now do not bring them to Las Vegas. Maybe only 40 or 50 of them might come with parents and see DEFCON... but they'd be seeing the "real" DEFCON... all of it. While there are fewer kids being exposed to hackers, they are getting "more" of an experience.
Scenario Three - DEFCON is Cancelled
All the kids stay home and have a really shitty summer spent watching America's Next Top Model and reruns of Friends, none of them question the TSA when they fly to visit grandma, schools decline because of lack of imagination and/or roof pools, and Michelle Bachman gets elected president of Earth in 2024.
100 kids are brought to Las Vegas because of DEFCON and DEFCON Kids. All of them attend some of the DEFCON Kids sessions. About 10 or maybe even 20 of them venture out into the "real" con space and get to see loads more cool stuff and one day might grow up to take over the world. The 80 or 90 kids who only see DEFCON Kids are still better for the experience, but their eyes aren't "opened quite as widely" some would say.
Scenario Two - DEFCON Kids does not exist
Those 100 kids above? Yeah, many of their families now do not bring them to Las Vegas. Maybe only 40 or 50 of them might come with parents and see DEFCON... but they'd be seeing the "real" DEFCON... all of it. While there are fewer kids being exposed to hackers, they are getting "more" of an experience.
Scenario Three - DEFCON is Cancelled
All the kids stay home and have a really shitty summer spent watching America's Next Top Model and reruns of Friends, none of them question the TSA when they fly to visit grandma, schools decline because of lack of imagination and/or roof pools, and Michelle Bachman gets elected president of Earth in 2024.
Heh, ok... hyperbole aside, i think we can agree that life for all parties young and old is better when kids are doing more hacker-y things. So then the real question sort of becomes just an issue of my hypothetical numbers above.
Did only 10 or 20% of the DEFCON Kids participants venture out into the scary-yet-awesome world that is DEFCON at large? i think that number was actually higher than many people initially predicted. Certainly higher than 10 or 20%. A lot of this had to do with Chris Hadnagy's awesome Social Engineering contest and similar tasks which were well-crafted.
If DEFCON Kids did not exist, would up to 40 or 50% of those potential kids have really come to Vegas at all? maybe not. Aside from the sad-looking clowns who stand near the entrances to pedestrian bridges and perhaps the lunacy that is a Carrot Top show, This city isn't really a kid-friendly place.*
Ultimately, i think that the DEFCON Kids event was more of a success than a lot of us (including myself) thought it would be. Kids didn't stay too isolated, in spite of the incredible distance of the room's location and such. The speakers who attended (and, indeed, i was asked to present and i accepted, even if it was on Sunday morning, heh) did a good job of bringing real content, not dumbed-down fluff.
We got some good press, albeit a lot was human-interest pieces or uninformed drivel like the article that started me on this whole crazy post.
For future years, i think it's not bad if we see DEFCON Kids continue... but with an even greater focus on opening up the event in a way that strongly encourages kids and their parents to see the rest of the con space. Maybe part of that is more contests driving people to the main event room. Maybe more of the "main" events offering some kid-friendly component.
I'm no longer in charge of Beverage Cooling, having handed it off to some key figures who are always out there every year... but i'd love it if there was a side-contest called, i don't know, "Slurm Cooling" (perhaps featuring just SunnyD dyed green or something) that runs at the same time and with the same fanfare as the "adult" events.
I'm eager to see how all of this turns out. I'm eager to see the debate continue. I'm eager to see DEFCON keep getting more awesome and to see more people of all ages getting involved.
* I was tempted to also mention the Bellagio Fountains, but any kid standing outside and watching them would likely be accosted by numerous fast-talkers trying to hand them advertisements for hookers or seedy buffet coupons.
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