Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Nikita, In case no one tells you today, you rock!

It was good to sort of meet you in Zach's room Friday night.

Which one were you? The blonde or the brunette? hahaha.
Thanks for the props!

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Which one were you? The blonde or the brunette? hahaha.
Thanks for the props!

The blonde.

[CWB]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

There are "adult" contests?

The only thing I have to add to the original comment, is in jest....OMG I know what you mean, I saw so many newbs running around the speaker tracks, it's much too advanced for them and it made me uncomfortable so I told the presenter to limit his speech to policy discussion or I was going to have to kick out all the newbs....

I'm not faulting you or hating on you for having your opinion, but I do want to take a moment to reflect on this subject from my perspective, since you brought it up.

----------
I know this isn't directed at me, but I'm going to address it as if I was speaking to the people who DID give me shit over the weekend. Please consider my reply is a generic YOU and not to the original poster.

Having some douchenozzle in the crowd thursday say that if "you can't leave your kid at home, don't come to DEF CON" seriously hurt my precious feelings and melted my ENTIRE Fucking snowflake. Had I seen who it was I would have asked him if he can't leave his sense of entitlement at home perhaps he should stay home. Sure, I got plenty dirty looks, from attendees and GOONS, the latter was pretty sickening to be honest. All because my son was in their general vicinity, minding his own business watching his curious George listening on his headphones, my kid just nerped people out. His very presence was just earth shattering OFFENSIVE to some people.

The only thing I can boil it down to is maybe because for some reason you think it's YOUR Responsibility to modify your behavior, begrudgingly i might add, and judge others for it. When you were not asked or implied to conform to ANY standards. That's just 100% anti-hacker. Shame on you. You pre-judged a lot of parents who had their kids at con, these same parents who are hackers and people just like you, because they had kids with them. In essence you put it upon yourself to take a responsibility of the by proxy parent or role model where it was not asked of you.

If you don't like kids. Don't have them. If you don't like being around kids, walk away, it's a free country (sort of) and i've earned my right to be there. It's not anyone's responsibility to keep kids away from you or the areas you are in to make you feel comfortable and the same can be said the other way around. It's the parents responsibility to use their judgement regarding their kids and I guarantee you they care more about their kids environment and safety then you ever will. Point blank, don't fuck with momma bear. If I think my kid, aged 2 or age 12 can handle a particular situation, then so be it. I know MY Child, you do not.

I was in the vendor area when a friend came up to me as I had my kid in a stroller and he was just standing there talking to me, he leaned in and said "I don't know if you want me around your kid right now, I've had a few drinks" My reply to that simply put "You're cool dude, it's fine" I appreciate him warning me, like I said, we are friends. but he's not driving him to the strip club, not babysitting him, and not asking him if he wants to go solder in the pool. In my mind I was sarcastically thinking it OMFG IS ITS CONTAGIOUS?!?! and I've thought that about every comment about "appropriateness" since. Just because YOU are wearing a tin foil bathing suit and getting spanked does not mean my kid is, your actions are not going to directly affect my child. You go have fun with that. As my kid gets older, and see's and understands these shenanigans with a less than naive eye, I will have to make tougher choices sure but I will also have to accept my own personal responsibility to raise my child to be a questioning and respectful member of society and know where his boundaries lay. As parents it's our job to teach our kids that there is a time and place for things and what they are and are not allowed to participate in. That's a normal expectation you should have of being a parent. Sadly, the rest of society has not caught up with that brilliant concept of "Mind your own business, it's not your kid". You've no right to judge parents unless they are causing serious issues of abuse to their spawn.

I may not LOOK Like I'm hovering over my child, but I am watching his personal space and safety like a hawk. I might let my kid burn off some energy running around, but the minute something becomes inappropriate, and I know it can happen in a moments notice, I will remove my child. The minute my kid becomes a disruption, I will remove him so he is not disturbing other people, out of respect. I was once a childless son of a bitch once too. Just like You have the choice to participate in something, I have the choice not to, and it's up to me to determine when I want to stay or go.

I am insanely protective of my child. INSANELY Protective. I also know what he can and cannot handle for his particular development bracket. I know what things he will understand, what may be too much, what situations I won't bring him to, etc. That's pretty much the same for most good parents. The presumption that you have to censor yourself, is all on you. If I was afraid of my son hearing the F-bomb I'd have my larynx removed once he was born, I curse like a sailor. I have no problem with people bringing their kids to DEF CON So long as they follow a few simple unwritten rules regarding exposing your kids to the public at large according to the "cult of the parent".

1. If your kid is being a douche, try to resolve it swiftly, if you cannot, Remove yourself from the situation and come back later.
2. Don't expect anyone to sympathize with you because you bred, it will never happen.
3. Please and Thank you's.


Society does not raise my kid for me, I do. As a Hacker Mom, I will not lie to my child, I will allow him to question his surroundings, I will allow him to safely fail and fail and fail and I will always be there but I will NOT HAND MY KIDS ACHIEVEMENTS In life. You have to be able to stand back say "this is how it's done, let me teach you, okay now you are on your own show me what you learned" Worse thing you can do is let your grow up with a false sense of entitlement, awarding them for flashy false achievements, especially now that I am old enough to recognize that is so much of what is already busted with people today. A false sense that the rest of the world must be revolving around their needs, adults these days are the worst offenders. As hackers, we ought to know better, it starts with teaching the kids what we know today and make a best effort to change the culture that we can't stand. Otherwise we end up in a world of surveillance and censorship and the same ole bullshit.

There is so much that kids can learn from participating and being included in this community, one day they will grow up with the power and the technology at their disposal to really make vast improvements over our generations downfall. right now, these kids, we are raising the "calvary" so to speak, and we have the ability to foster the hacker spirt within the little system we have going. I LOVE Seeing kids at DEF CON, especially the ones who are old enough to ask WHY and to LEARN the cool shit we are so selfishly squirreling away for another 0day.

That's my rant kids, take it or leave it.

Nikita:

AMEN! By putting our children in bubbles, we set them up for failure.

[CWB]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I would demand a coffee machine in the hotel rooms. I don't care about the weight room and other amenities they insist I pay for. I NEED COFFEE!

There was a Keurig in the room...but the coffee thingies were in the wet bar fridge. And the minute you took it out of the fridge they charge you for it! Blech. I don't drink coffee.

**********************

On a side note, is there a policy that I can't carry my ice chest of booze around the con? My ice chest got kicked out of the con because the hotel complained that I was preventing sales or some bullshit like that. My goodness! I only had a 24 pack of Coronas, 12 pack of Mike's hard lemonade, and some rum and coke!! Not all of us can afford $8/beer. So I saved money and bought cool tech and swag! BTW, I drank most of it myself. I did give a couple of Coronas to some of my favorite goons though! :D

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

The blonde.

Cool.
So....can I get your number.


( entirely kidding, fyi) It was nice meeting you, see you next year hopefully. :-) Oh and COME TO THE FORUM MEET/PARTY!!!!!!

[kallahar]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't want kids at defcon because for some of the things we do it's not the KID who will get in trouble, it's US. If a parent complains on camera that people are being offensive in front of their children then it's not the kid who gets judged, it's the adults. It's not the parents, it's the attendees.

Sure, in our community we can shame the parents, but when the outside world views us it's "think of the children".

Of course, most parents/kids are just fine, but it's the 2% who will fuck it up for everyone.

Kallahar

[lanrofls]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't want kids at defcon because for some of the things we do it's not the KID who will get in trouble, it's US. If a parent complains on camera that people are being offensive in front of their children then it's not the kid who gets judged, it's the adults. It's not the parents, it's the attendees.

Sure, in our community we can shame the parents, but when the outside world views us it's "think of the children".

Of course, most parents/kids are just fine, but it's the 2% who will fuck it up for everyone.

Kallahar

I Think this is a very valid point. Personally I think it is great to get kids involved and those who have attended defcon prior to bringing their kids know what to expect and can make that choice. I see a problem happening where a parent brings their child and defcon is a first for both of them. The parent may not realize (even with warning) what might go on at defcon and that is where an issue like Kallahar mentions will happen and we will have an angry parent.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't want kids at defcon because for some of the things we do it's not the KID who will get in trouble, it's US. If a parent complains on camera that people are being offensive in front of their children then it's not the kid who gets judged, it's the adults. It's not the parents, it's the attendees.

Sure, in our community we can shame the parents, but when the outside world views us it's "think of the children".

Of course, most parents/kids are just fine, but it's the 2% who will fuck it up for everyone.

Kallahar

Maybe we can apply a kind of "MPAA Rating of movies" to conventions.

DEF CON: Rated "X" for adult situations, nudity, language, sexual situations, network violence, server decapitations, immaturity, trolling, alcohol, partying, and cold hard facts.

Or we could go for the prescription drug method...

DEF CON should not be taken orally, and it is both a stimulant, and a depressant depending on method of use. You should not operate heavy machinery while taking DEF CON. Side-effects may include learning, enlightenment, fun, partying, vomiting, "the krud", meeting new people, creating life-long friendships, getting naked, expletives NOT deleted, observation of actions or laws being broken which you can't see on TV or in movies. DEF CON may be habit-forming, and has been known to be addictive. You should not DEF CON while under the influence of close-minded-ness, or while holding demands that other people change their behavior to suit you and your special interests. Using DEF CON may lead to volunteerism, and adding your own fun to the DEF CON experience for others.

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

The parent may not realize (even with warning) what might go on at defcon and that is where an issue like Kallahar mentions will happen and we will have an angry parent.

I don't know what my kid will see or hear at Walmart, and the prospect of shit happening around my kid is everywhere. Frankly, I worry more about what my kid will see in what is considered "Normal society" more than I ever would a "special case" like DEF CON.

I said it before I was a parent and I say it now that I am, If you don't want your kid to see things you don't agree with, morally are object to, or shield them from hearing "FUCK" when I stub my toe at the grocery store, then don't take them out in public. It's not ANYONE's Problem or responsibility to change their behavior because your kid is around. It's MY responsibility to teach my child what we consider our family values. If parents first time or otherwise, don't like what they see, LEAVE. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there are liabilities for attendees or the con just because a kid might be around.

No one, is forcing you to sit next to a heathen in closing ceremonies and bath your child in the blood of unwashed hacker virgins. Just shut up. I'm pretty sure, the real problem is you ( general you, speaking to detractors) Think that having these kids around is making a hacker disneyland where you are too old/short to ride mr toads wild ride.

And Kallahar, the 2% that fuck it up for everyone is WHY We do this every year, so in my humble opinion ( which everyone knows I'm not humble) is that it's hypocritical to turn away ONE Aspect of the 2% because we jsut don't want to deal with it. I mean, two is a magical number, the deuce, I can think of one aspect of BADGED Attendees that fit that #2, that we suffer through them in the hopes of making a difference in the end game.

And in case I was cryptic, I was referring to the press.

[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't know what my kid will see or hear at Walmart, and the prospect of shit happening around my kid is everywhere. Frankly, I worry more about what my kid will see in what is considered "Normal society" more than I ever would a "special case" like DEF CON.

I said it before I was a parent and I say it now that I am, If you don't want your kid to see things you don't agree with, morally are object to, or shield them from hearing "FUCK" when I stub my toe at the grocery store, then don't take them out in public. It's not ANYONE's Problem or responsibility to change their behavior because your kid is around. It's MY responsibility to teach my child what we consider our family values. If parents first time or otherwise, don't like what they see, LEAVE. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there are liabilities for attendees or the con just because a kid might be around.

No one, is forcing you to sit next to a heathen in closing ceremonies and bath your child in the blood of unwashed hacker virgins. Just shut up. I'm pretty sure, the real problem is you ( general you, speaking to detractors) Think that having these kids around is making a hacker disneyland where you are too old/short to ride mr toads wild ride.

And Kallahar, the 2% that fuck it up for everyone is WHY We do this every year, so in my humble opinion ( which everyone knows I'm not humble) is that it's hypocritical to turn away ONE Aspect of the 2% because we jsut don't want to deal with it. I mean, two is a magical number, the deuce, I can think of one aspect of BADGED Attendees that fit that #2, that we suffer through them in the hopes of making a difference in the end game.

And in case I was cryptic, I was referring to the press.

Nikita,

I think you make some valid points and if every parent was like you we wouldn't have a potential problem. Unfortunately, they are not and that is where Kallahar is correct. We live in a society where people shift blame. When we have a part of the Con specifically devoted to kids, many people read that as "this is a kid friendly event." The problem is they have to have badges for DC Kids (or whatever the fuck they are calling it now). That badge gets them in to everything. I can absolutely see a parent that isn't like you but rather is more like...you know...most of America (that is not a good thing btw) taking their shiny new human badge and their shiny new kid to hacker jeopardy after their kid found 17 0days in the timekeeping methodology of an iPhone game and shitting the bed. <---heh...holy shit could i have gone off on enough different shit in one sentence?


Seriously though. DC Kids is no longer official (am I correct on that?) but they have to have a badge that gets them in to official events. I think that "inviting" kids does open us (DEF CON) up to a sort of liability should some parent shit the bed because little Zer0Cool saw a nipple. Like you I am not a lawyer but I think we will one day run in to trouble because of DC Kids.

Now, that said, I still 100% support running DEF CON business as usual and if kids come to events that's between them and their parents. We has a couple of awesome kids in the Old Timers talk in Skytalks this year. Both were teenage girls, both were super smart, and both were sitting next to their dads. We didn't dial ourselves back and the dads seemed to know what they were getting in to.

In the interest of Full Disclosure for anyone that has been asleep for the past three years, I have been vocally opposed to the idea of KidCon since it was first suggested. My opinion has always been as stated above that we have everything available to kids already and there is no need to set them aside in their own special room. My opinion has not been changed over the years. That opinion could certainly influence how I see this issue.

[shrdlu]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Briefly. I concur with what Nikita has said (every damned word of it), and what Chris has said (ditto).

I suggest that simply putting up a sign behind the heads of those selling the badges that says (roughly):

If you are purchasing this badge for a person or persons who is not an adult, understand that all of Defcon and all of its events should be considered adult, and it is your responsibility to determine whether your precious snowflake is ready for adult fare.

Okay, maybe a little different than that, but the disclaimer, in some form or another, should be enough to protect the folks that are fun from the delicate flowers.

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Cool.
So....can I get your number.


( entirely kidding, fyi) It was nice meeting you, see you next year hopefully. :-) Oh and COME TO THE FORUM MEET/PARTY!!!!!!

Yes on next year. I will try to make it to the forum party now that I'm trying to lurk less. ;)

[blakdayz]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Nikita,

I think you make some valid points and if every parent was like you we wouldn't have a potential problem. Unfortunately, they are not and that is where Kallahar is correct. We live in a society where people shift blame. When we have a part of the Con specifically devoted to kids, many people read that as "this is a kid friendly event." The problem is they have to have badges for DC Kids (or whatever the fuck they are calling it now). That badge gets them in to everything. I can absolutely see a parent that isn't like you but rather is more like...you know...most of America (that is not a good thing btw) taking their shiny new human badge and their shiny new kid to hacker jeopardy after their kid found 17 0days in the timekeeping methodology of an iPhone game and shitting the bed. <---heh...holy shit could i have gone off on enough different shit in one sentence?


Seriously though. DC Kids is no longer official (am I correct on that?) but they have to have a badge that gets them in to official events. I think that "inviting" kids does open us (DEF CON) up to a sort of liability should some parent shit the bed because little Zer0Cool saw a nipple. Like you I am not a lawyer but I think we will one day run in to trouble because of DC Kids.

Now, that said, I still 100% support running DEF CON business as usual and if kids come to events that's between them and their parents. We has a couple of awesome kids in the Old Timers talk in Skytalks this year. Both were teenage girls, both were super smart, and both were sitting next to their dads. We didn't dial ourselves back and the dads seemed to know what they were getting in to.

In the interest of Full Disclosure for anyone that has been asleep for the past three years, I have been vocally opposed to the idea of KidCon since it was first suggested. My opinion has always been as stated above that we have everything available to kids already and there is no need to set them aside in their own special room. My opinion has not been changed over the years. That opinion could certainly influence how I see this issue.

Well, my kids attend DEF CON. I am with Niki7a on that point. My clones are not attending some special 'con' for kids... they will be attending the same DEF CON we work all year to produce. If partial nudity, drinking, and hacking were 'offending' topics to me or my children's sensibilities, its on me as a parent. If someone accosts my kids, I would treat them like I would any asshole accosting an attendee. I think the issue is when it was called 'DC Kids'... now its Rootz and not part of the Con...so the stigma of DEF CON being 'kid' friendly will go away.

I think that one day we will deal with the pissed off parent. We will just have to instruct them to the FAQ, the DC Kids FAQ (it tells them that DC is an 'adult' event) and send them on their way (or to the Rootz folks). Either way...my kids will attend DEF CON the same as any other human. I will not put them in a bubble off to the side. I do not expect folks to dial back any behavior. The community I wish to include them in needs no censoring imho.


Just my 2c.

[Th3Pr0ph3t]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Just like blakdayz and Niki7a have stated its up to us as parents to take care of our kids. Once I believe my kids are mature enough to attend DEFCON I will take them. My oldest is eight and is already taking an interest in learning about computers and lock picking! I'll give them the option to attend Rootz/DEFCON Kids/what ever its going to be called. When I do take my kids to DEFCON it will be with the full understanding that I will take them to DEFCON, not some kid friendly event. I think its great that there's an effort going into educating the kids in our community. Telling everyone at the closing ceremonies that kids found dozens of 0days is not helping DEFCON Kids, if everything found was not a 0day. Use the term vulnerability or exploit.

On a slightly different note one suggestion I have is the "DEFCON kids" should have their own closing ceremony. With a small two minute blip about how well "DEFCON kids" went. Contest and Events did a similar thing this year. Non-Black Badge events had an awards ceremony at 1430 on Sunday this year. This idea is great idea. The Closing Ceremony is getting really long. I at least don't remember hearing or reading about the awards ceremony until 1400 when one of my Scavenger Hunt team members called me about. I heard a few similar comments from other attendees. I think the awards ceremony could be smoothed out next year.

Overall this year was a blast! The registration line moved quickly. Halls were crowded but not overwhelming, Parties were great (from what I remember). I enjoyed all of the events that I got involved with.

[astcell]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Rooms need free coffee.
Can the chillout lounge AND food bar next door be open 24/7? I was craving food at an ungodly hour.
Kids...yea I saw a few kids out of control I gave the evil eye to. No parents in sight.