Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

[lexxmac]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I didn't mind any of the kids attending the con. None of them were a bother that I saw. There was a goon child, had to be under 10, that asked me loudly "Where's your badge?". The voice of a child questioning me kinda threw me ("WTF? Tiny Goon?"). My badge was hanging out of a cargo pocket, so I held up my badge and moved on. What I can only assume was a parent was goon-ing with him, which is cool, just surprised me a little.

Also, the series of events surrounding the Goon paddling Ang Cui on stage was awesome. Which reminds me - the consistency for making new speakers drink was odd. I had a friend speak for his first time and he got away without downing anything, seemingly omitted. Again, strange, since it seemed like most of the talks I went to had a mandatory shot-taking interruption, which was fine. Not sure if he felt left out, forgot to ask. Any insight anyone?

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

This was my first Defcon and I enjoyed it a lot. Thank You. I have a couple of suggestions though:



c) Oh and and.. please please let the booklet of information (red thing which we got with the badge) have talks ordered by day and time instead of the presenter's last name. Please. I beg you :)

Thanks
LDE

Hmmmm. That's not a bad idea, and if we are lucky MAYBE we can pull it off. The problem in doing it in the past is we use the website as "vetted" data to pull the info from. Since the speakers look at it to "proof" what we print, they know what's on the site is what we print and when the deadline comes we use that as the data, and it's ordered alphabetically to avoid putting someone on top and imply any form of favoritism. In the past, we've only had a few days due to production issues & other various mucky muck deadlines to pull off putting the program together. That should be changed this year, and although no promises, it is a really good idea.

This year, we are making a few changes to our process and we may be lucky enough to have the time to pull off organizing the speaker data better. Not to mention a few other improvements to the show itself and especially in the data that goes in the program, we are hoping to be able to implement a lot of the really good ideas we get as feedback from people like you.

[LDE]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

This was my first Defcon and I enjoyed it a lot. Thank You. I have a couple of suggestions though:

a) Is it possible to have the villages start on Thursday instead of Friday? I couldn't get a seat for most of Friday at the hardware village and had to turn up at 9:45am on Saturday to get a seat. One more day might make things a bit more flexible :). I'd be happy to pay a little more too ..if that is doable.

b) Defcon TV is a great idea. However as others have probably already mentioned, it'd be super cool to have the slides on there too if that's possible. A lot of people (like me) didn't get their laptops with them.

c) Oh and and.. please please let the booklet of information (red thing which we got with the badge) have talks ordered by day and time instead of the presenter's last name. Please. I beg you :)

Thanks
LDE

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Pub Crawls were offered this year in response to people trying to take over areas like chillout to do their own music, or requests for smaller events. However, what occurred at a high level (as I understand it) is that the pub crawls didn't generate the response that was expected. But, we had too many applicants for 1 space. Fast forward to time-crunch and scrambling (I'll get to these more in a minute) and things ended up like what you saw. This is an area we *will* get better at for 22.
)

You're absolutely correct. I don't think we will stretch A&E that thin again and I doubt we will have a pub crawl again. It's more likely we will try to bring back "skybox" level parties from private groups. In all actuality, we didn't have that many applicants, so we just gave everyone double the space we were intending. Which worked honestly, because judging on the parties people DID throw for pub crawl, if we had kept them in the smaller rooms that we had originally planned, it would have been like putting people in a broom closet.

Above all else, we need to work better not to throw you guys under the bus. Just a thought. :-) I think A&E did an EXCELLENT Job this year, especially considering the inclusion of being involved with Pub Crawls and several other un-named fiasco's at the last minute.

I'm very excited to see the possibility of some more diverse music. As one goon told me this year:

"I like peas, they are tasty. BUT I'm not going to want to eat Peas for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. The same with Techno/Electronic. I enjoy it, but not for EVERY party" <- I paraphrase but that's basically what he said. I won't direct quote him incase I mucked it up or he didn't want to share that opinion.

A&E is well aware of my opinion internally of my extreme dislike for MOST ( not all ) Untz Untz. Shit is annoying as all fuck. I prefer music that you can scream to, dance to, mosh to, sing along with, and just feel nostalgic and energized to. I'm mainstream in that sense, but I'll never stop the rest of you from having a good time.

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make SeriousDEF CON 22 even better?

OPEN BAR DUDE!

Seriously, the biggest reason people don't want to go to the defcon parties, and do want to go to the "private" ones is the open bar.

I don't even know how to address this without the typical Nikita Snarky Response.™

You think DEF CON Proper should also pay for everyone to drink every night? So 4 days 3 nights of massive parties, events, contests, speaking tracks, Headlining Music acts, and multiple bonus level fun ALL for $180 is not enough? We need to shower people with Beer & Whiskey too? If you want free booze, you don't have to look far to find it at DEF CON. Like you said multiple parties offer it, and if you make some friends the likelihood they will share a bottle with you is pretty high.
Also, I've been to SEVERAL private parties over the years that have bars in them but they are not free so I think it's just a matter of diversity not alcohol. If you recall the Ninja Parties, it was impossible to GET a free drink and people STILL packed the crap out of their venues. Skyboxes that did have OPEN bars, the same thing. No one wants to wait 8 hrs for a lightly poured tonic, its the rest of the entertainment or people IN the room that keep people there. Another example, is I think in all the times I've been in a 303 party, I've only gotten ONE free drink, not because I wasn't offered, I just didn't want to bother standing in the line. I'd rather sit there and listen or participate in the shenanigans. My time is precious, I'd be more inclined to leave the open bar and go to the bar with a short line and pay for the speed and convince of getting back in the game. Also, for several years in the past I have carried a mobile bar or at minimum a flask.

Did you know we had free kegs for the Documentary premiere? It wasn't bum rushed by people with their solo cups.
In the past for the Thurs & Sun parties we have had free beer, attendance levels did not increase.
There's always at least ONE Event every year that DT buys booze for, no noticeable change in attendance because of it.
DEF CON Forum meet this year had free booze too.

I handed out a free drink tickets ( or several) To everyone just about, that walked in the door for the Forum Meet, which is an official DC Party, DT paid for those drinks as a thank you to new and old forum & groups members who showed up. I even handed some to the off duty goons who showed up to say hi, and offered them to the ON duty goons ( who I'm proud to say, they said they were on duty and couldn't drink) to which I informed them they could get a coke or juice if they wanted, but they were cool and didn't want one.

Even still, not like I advertised the open bar, but I handed out massive swag from my personal stock, free prizes, Official DEF CON stickers, booze tickets, etc and we were not packed to the brim. Most of which I did advertise. Also, I did not play techno, fwiw. We had a ball pit, which was fun, an excellent novelty, but even still we had a moderately filled room and a rotation of attendance. People are social creatures and want to rotate and see EVERYTHING. I'd attribute that as a reason rooms are not packed to the brim, not free booze. Gone are the days we stayed in ONE room all night, there is SO MUCH to see that people keep moving, keep wanting to find their friends, or stop in the hallways to have that conversation about the state of affairs.

Free Booze is flashy bs, you can't throw a good party or keep good attendance based on alcohol alone. Otherwise, people will get their drink and go find another place to actually enjoy it. For example, if the chill out lounge had an open bar but no interesting content/music for me to enjoy I'm not going to sit there wasting my night bored off my ass just for the sake of some whiskey & coke. Peace out boring people, I'll go find something else to do.

Maybe it's your biggest reason, but I really doubt it's the biggest reason for the majority of attendees. I think they just want to float, there is a lot to compete for their attention. To address if it's the Rio's fault or the restriction of convention services as to why free booze is an "issue" it's not. They don't restrict us, aside from bringing in outside food and drink which is reasonable, since their union bartenders need to get paid. Also, those of you who don't tip the bartenders are complete douchebags for the record. It's not THEIR FAULT The Rio will charge you $5- $8 a drink.

[kallahar]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

OPEN BAR DUDE!

Seriously, the biggest reason people don't want to go to the defcon parties, and do want to go to the "private" ones is the open bar. I realize the Rio is the problem on this, and it's probably something that we can't solve. Is there any way to throw a defcon sponsored party, with an open bar, that doesn't fall under convention services?

Or alternatively just provide a fund for a "private" party to throw an unofficial official party.

What if we rented every top floor suite and the club and made a multi-area party? (open bar of course)

Kallahar

[Tribalsoul]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Beyond those two things? Well, I always think there is "too much" going on and that it spreads out the energy of the crowd. Friday and especially Saturday evening it seems that every damn room was being used for DJ action. The same beats all being played by a bunch of nobodies who between them couldn't assemble a crowd of more than 10 people sort of dancing and sort of wandering around. Honestly, if there were only a handful of party areas they would all be packed with more bodies and the vibe of the night would be a lot cooler for all involved.

I think people love their evening a whole lot more if they had to spend half of it waiting to get into the hot party rather than spending all of it meandering between empty rooms with pulsing lights and no one inside.

Scott may have more to say on this, Deviant, but I think the rest of the A&E staff would agree with me that we felt things were a bit too spread out, both for the Con and for our staff.

Pub Crawls were offered this year in response to people trying to take over areas like chillout to do their own music, or requests for smaller events. However, what occurred at a high level (as I understand it) is that the pub crawls didn't generate the response that was expected. But, we had too many applicants for 1 space. Fast forward to time-crunch and scrambling (I'll get to these more in a minute) and things ended up like what you saw. This is an area we *will* get better at for 22.

Every year we learn more about what to do, what works, and what doesn't... but it isn't formulaic or always predicable as there are variables thrown in the A&E team can't control (# of unofficial (non-DC) parties, location of unofficial parties, performers are unofficial parties, etc.). But, these variables make for a really challenging position of booking an artist that should have a) name recognition (preferably cross-genre) and b) reasonable expenses. I love the fact that there are tons of entertainment options, but at last count I'd heard Thursday evening had 14 unofficial events over multiple locations, plus The Summit. That's 14 other draws against an evening of entertainment funded by DC, often times with a more extensive budget.

So, how are we going to address this? It goes back to the time-crunch and scramble. I've already published a survey for the community about what acts people want to see (gratuitous self-promotion link: https://forum.defcon.org/showthread....13624&p=129896). We'll crunch the data at the end of a month and see how it lines up with our notes about the various turnouts, then go from there. We'll begin soliciting acts earlier to allow inclusion of artists that might be touring. We'll have proposals for the appropriate Senior Staff earlier, allowing us to reduce some costs and use more for promotion and other items (possibly even alcohol?)

Oh, and we'll make sure the bar is open when the Goon Band plays next time ;) (that's a whole other story...)

[astcell]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Rooms need free coffee.
Can the chillout lounge AND food bar next door be open 24/7? I was craving food at an ungodly hour.
Kids...yea I saw a few kids out of control I gave the evil eye to. No parents in sight.

[Th3Pr0ph3t]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Just like blakdayz and Niki7a have stated its up to us as parents to take care of our kids. Once I believe my kids are mature enough to attend DEFCON I will take them. My oldest is eight and is already taking an interest in learning about computers and lock picking! I'll give them the option to attend Rootz/DEFCON Kids/what ever its going to be called. When I do take my kids to DEFCON it will be with the full understanding that I will take them to DEFCON, not some kid friendly event. I think its great that there's an effort going into educating the kids in our community. Telling everyone at the closing ceremonies that kids found dozens of 0days is not helping DEFCON Kids, if everything found was not a 0day. Use the term vulnerability or exploit.

On a slightly different note one suggestion I have is the "DEFCON kids" should have their own closing ceremony. With a small two minute blip about how well "DEFCON kids" went. Contest and Events did a similar thing this year. Non-Black Badge events had an awards ceremony at 1430 on Sunday this year. This idea is great idea. The Closing Ceremony is getting really long. I at least don't remember hearing or reading about the awards ceremony until 1400 when one of my Scavenger Hunt team members called me about. I heard a few similar comments from other attendees. I think the awards ceremony could be smoothed out next year.

Overall this year was a blast! The registration line moved quickly. Halls were crowded but not overwhelming, Parties were great (from what I remember). I enjoyed all of the events that I got involved with.

[blakdayz]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Nikita,

I think you make some valid points and if every parent was like you we wouldn't have a potential problem. Unfortunately, they are not and that is where Kallahar is correct. We live in a society where people shift blame. When we have a part of the Con specifically devoted to kids, many people read that as "this is a kid friendly event." The problem is they have to have badges for DC Kids (or whatever the fuck they are calling it now). That badge gets them in to everything. I can absolutely see a parent that isn't like you but rather is more like...you know...most of America (that is not a good thing btw) taking their shiny new human badge and their shiny new kid to hacker jeopardy after their kid found 17 0days in the timekeeping methodology of an iPhone game and shitting the bed. <---heh...holy shit could i have gone off on enough different shit in one sentence?


Seriously though. DC Kids is no longer official (am I correct on that?) but they have to have a badge that gets them in to official events. I think that "inviting" kids does open us (DEF CON) up to a sort of liability should some parent shit the bed because little Zer0Cool saw a nipple. Like you I am not a lawyer but I think we will one day run in to trouble because of DC Kids.

Now, that said, I still 100% support running DEF CON business as usual and if kids come to events that's between them and their parents. We has a couple of awesome kids in the Old Timers talk in Skytalks this year. Both were teenage girls, both were super smart, and both were sitting next to their dads. We didn't dial ourselves back and the dads seemed to know what they were getting in to.

In the interest of Full Disclosure for anyone that has been asleep for the past three years, I have been vocally opposed to the idea of KidCon since it was first suggested. My opinion has always been as stated above that we have everything available to kids already and there is no need to set them aside in their own special room. My opinion has not been changed over the years. That opinion could certainly influence how I see this issue.

Well, my kids attend DEF CON. I am with Niki7a on that point. My clones are not attending some special 'con' for kids... they will be attending the same DEF CON we work all year to produce. If partial nudity, drinking, and hacking were 'offending' topics to me or my children's sensibilities, its on me as a parent. If someone accosts my kids, I would treat them like I would any asshole accosting an attendee. I think the issue is when it was called 'DC Kids'... now its Rootz and not part of the Con...so the stigma of DEF CON being 'kid' friendly will go away.

I think that one day we will deal with the pissed off parent. We will just have to instruct them to the FAQ, the DC Kids FAQ (it tells them that DC is an 'adult' event) and send them on their way (or to the Rootz folks). Either way...my kids will attend DEF CON the same as any other human. I will not put them in a bubble off to the side. I do not expect folks to dial back any behavior. The community I wish to include them in needs no censoring imho.


Just my 2c.

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Cool.
So....can I get your number.


( entirely kidding, fyi) It was nice meeting you, see you next year hopefully. :-) Oh and COME TO THE FORUM MEET/PARTY!!!!!!

Yes on next year. I will try to make it to the forum party now that I'm trying to lurk less. ;)

[shrdlu]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Briefly. I concur with what Nikita has said (every damned word of it), and what Chris has said (ditto).

I suggest that simply putting up a sign behind the heads of those selling the badges that says (roughly):

If you are purchasing this badge for a person or persons who is not an adult, understand that all of Defcon and all of its events should be considered adult, and it is your responsibility to determine whether your precious snowflake is ready for adult fare.

Okay, maybe a little different than that, but the disclaimer, in some form or another, should be enough to protect the folks that are fun from the delicate flowers.

[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't know what my kid will see or hear at Walmart, and the prospect of shit happening around my kid is everywhere. Frankly, I worry more about what my kid will see in what is considered "Normal society" more than I ever would a "special case" like DEF CON.

I said it before I was a parent and I say it now that I am, If you don't want your kid to see things you don't agree with, morally are object to, or shield them from hearing "FUCK" when I stub my toe at the grocery store, then don't take them out in public. It's not ANYONE's Problem or responsibility to change their behavior because your kid is around. It's MY responsibility to teach my child what we consider our family values. If parents first time or otherwise, don't like what they see, LEAVE. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there are liabilities for attendees or the con just because a kid might be around.

No one, is forcing you to sit next to a heathen in closing ceremonies and bath your child in the blood of unwashed hacker virgins. Just shut up. I'm pretty sure, the real problem is you ( general you, speaking to detractors) Think that having these kids around is making a hacker disneyland where you are too old/short to ride mr toads wild ride.

And Kallahar, the 2% that fuck it up for everyone is WHY We do this every year, so in my humble opinion ( which everyone knows I'm not humble) is that it's hypocritical to turn away ONE Aspect of the 2% because we jsut don't want to deal with it. I mean, two is a magical number, the deuce, I can think of one aspect of BADGED Attendees that fit that #2, that we suffer through them in the hopes of making a difference in the end game.

And in case I was cryptic, I was referring to the press.

Nikita,

I think you make some valid points and if every parent was like you we wouldn't have a potential problem. Unfortunately, they are not and that is where Kallahar is correct. We live in a society where people shift blame. When we have a part of the Con specifically devoted to kids, many people read that as "this is a kid friendly event." The problem is they have to have badges for DC Kids (or whatever the fuck they are calling it now). That badge gets them in to everything. I can absolutely see a parent that isn't like you but rather is more like...you know...most of America (that is not a good thing btw) taking their shiny new human badge and their shiny new kid to hacker jeopardy after their kid found 17 0days in the timekeeping methodology of an iPhone game and shitting the bed. <---heh...holy shit could i have gone off on enough different shit in one sentence?


Seriously though. DC Kids is no longer official (am I correct on that?) but they have to have a badge that gets them in to official events. I think that "inviting" kids does open us (DEF CON) up to a sort of liability should some parent shit the bed because little Zer0Cool saw a nipple. Like you I am not a lawyer but I think we will one day run in to trouble because of DC Kids.

Now, that said, I still 100% support running DEF CON business as usual and if kids come to events that's between them and their parents. We has a couple of awesome kids in the Old Timers talk in Skytalks this year. Both were teenage girls, both were super smart, and both were sitting next to their dads. We didn't dial ourselves back and the dads seemed to know what they were getting in to.

In the interest of Full Disclosure for anyone that has been asleep for the past three years, I have been vocally opposed to the idea of KidCon since it was first suggested. My opinion has always been as stated above that we have everything available to kids already and there is no need to set them aside in their own special room. My opinion has not been changed over the years. That opinion could certainly influence how I see this issue.

[Nikita]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

The parent may not realize (even with warning) what might go on at defcon and that is where an issue like Kallahar mentions will happen and we will have an angry parent.

I don't know what my kid will see or hear at Walmart, and the prospect of shit happening around my kid is everywhere. Frankly, I worry more about what my kid will see in what is considered "Normal society" more than I ever would a "special case" like DEF CON.

I said it before I was a parent and I say it now that I am, If you don't want your kid to see things you don't agree with, morally are object to, or shield them from hearing "FUCK" when I stub my toe at the grocery store, then don't take them out in public. It's not ANYONE's Problem or responsibility to change their behavior because your kid is around. It's MY responsibility to teach my child what we consider our family values. If parents first time or otherwise, don't like what they see, LEAVE. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think there are liabilities for attendees or the con just because a kid might be around.

No one, is forcing you to sit next to a heathen in closing ceremonies and bath your child in the blood of unwashed hacker virgins. Just shut up. I'm pretty sure, the real problem is you ( general you, speaking to detractors) Think that having these kids around is making a hacker disneyland where you are too old/short to ride mr toads wild ride.

And Kallahar, the 2% that fuck it up for everyone is WHY We do this every year, so in my humble opinion ( which everyone knows I'm not humble) is that it's hypocritical to turn away ONE Aspect of the 2% because we jsut don't want to deal with it. I mean, two is a magical number, the deuce, I can think of one aspect of BADGED Attendees that fit that #2, that we suffer through them in the hopes of making a difference in the end game.

And in case I was cryptic, I was referring to the press.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I don't want kids at defcon because for some of the things we do it's not the KID who will get in trouble, it's US. If a parent complains on camera that people are being offensive in front of their children then it's not the kid who gets judged, it's the adults. It's not the parents, it's the attendees.

Sure, in our community we can shame the parents, but when the outside world views us it's "think of the children".

Of course, most parents/kids are just fine, but it's the 2% who will fuck it up for everyone.

Kallahar

Maybe we can apply a kind of "MPAA Rating of movies" to conventions.

DEF CON: Rated "X" for adult situations, nudity, language, sexual situations, network violence, server decapitations, immaturity, trolling, alcohol, partying, and cold hard facts.

Or we could go for the prescription drug method...

DEF CON should not be taken orally, and it is both a stimulant, and a depressant depending on method of use. You should not operate heavy machinery while taking DEF CON. Side-effects may include learning, enlightenment, fun, partying, vomiting, "the krud", meeting new people, creating life-long friendships, getting naked, expletives NOT deleted, observation of actions or laws being broken which you can't see on TV or in movies. DEF CON may be habit-forming, and has been known to be addictive. You should not DEF CON while under the influence of close-minded-ness, or while holding demands that other people change their behavior to suit you and your special interests. Using DEF CON may lead to volunteerism, and adding your own fun to the DEF CON experience for others.