Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

[blakdayz]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Whoa. I'm not even REMOTELY suggesting that we should ban kids from DEF CON. I'm suggesting that we get rid of DEF CON kids.

I understand your point and totally agree with what you are saying regarding the escalation of charges when minors are present but banning a group of people isn't the answer.

I'm saying that by having DC Kids we are "inviting" kids (for lack of a better word) and inadvertently conveying that it's kid friendly.

I'm less worried about the criminal side of things than the civil side when some parent loses their shit about what little Johnny was exposed to.

AFAIK, not official... but DEF CON Kids is done with. It is now a separate organization (Roootz Asylum [sp?]). No expectation of a toddler safe 'moral' environment often leads to no charges. Expectation of a morally safe environment for little Timmy , often leads to charges. I believe that as the spirit of the statement and I agree with it, as well as what has happened with it. I think things are going fine.....

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)


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[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

AFAIK, not official... but DEF CON Kids is done with. It is now a separate organization (Roootz Asylum [sp?]). No expectation of a toddler safe 'moral' environment often leads to no charges. Expectation of a morally safe environment for little Timmy , often leads to charges. I believe that as the spirit of the statement and I agree with it, as well as what has happened with it. I think things are going fine.....

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)


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You are correct that it's not DC Kids anymore. They can change the name all they want, but as long as they get time at closing, they are part of DEF CON. To think otherwise is being naive.

[astcell]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Simple solution. Someone arrange activities for kids but invite everyone who wishes to attend. Queercon does just that. Also the unofficial shoot. And vegetarians are still welcome at the BBQ. Just about any event at Defcon may be geared towards one factor but the others are not denied access. Maybe we put on an event designed for kids and it becomes a hit with seniors. Don't have a track JUST for kids. Just have a track that kids will enjoy, put on by people who enjoy doing such a thing. No doubt there are mature adults out there who can benefit from the kid classes, and some kids may be bored with lower level tracks and prefer to tell Dam Kaminsky about a new DNS discovery. We don't need to re-engineer a solution.

[GuloGuloDesu]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Pointing out something that some may not know...

Going back to DEF CON 5 (maybe earlier) we had people under 18 attending DEF CON. There were not MANY, and most were 16 or older, but we did have minors present. The first admin on the DEF CON forums attended his first DEF CON as a minor with his Mom, and was one of the youngest people to attend DEF CON.

My first Defcon was 7, and I was only 17 at the time. In all honesty I saw a lot of things that I shouldn't have. No I did not have a parent or guardian around, and no I did not notify the nearest authority figure. I have a feeling my life would have gotten a whole lot worse if I would have complained. But I was 17, why the hell would I complain?
And at the risk of sounding older, I feel that back then was a different time. Someone drunk pee'ing on a wall (whether at DEF CON or not), rarely got even noticed. Now they are arrested, charged, and registered as a sex offender.

Whoa. I'm not even REMOTELY suggesting that we should ban kids from DEF CON. I'm suggesting that we get rid of DEF CON kids.

I apologize, I don't think that my statement was thought out very well. I don't want to ban kids, and I don't want to cancel DEF CON kids, or ROOTz, or what ever it is called now. I think it is awesome that kids are learning. I wish it would have been around when I was that young, and that I would have had parents that would have brought me. Who knows what kind of mischivious skillz I would have by now.
I'm aware kids have been at DEF CON for a while now, but those kids, as TheCotMan stated, were usually elder teenagers. The kids that I am seeing now are preteens and younger.
I don't know what the solution is, I'm not even sure where to start. Maybe it involves some of us to only do stupid things at the parties where we are all carded. Maybe some of us are just too paranoid and we should act like we have always acted.
I'm also not too worried about a parent flipping out on me. Worst case I would just drunkenly stumble away ignoring them. Best case I would educate them on how what I do can be considered mild compared to what others have done at DEF CON. I'm more worried about an Occifer flipping out on me, those I usually can't ignore.....at least not well.

Not saying you have ever streaked through the con... Just saying they haven't caught Siv yet ;)

I am slightly more memorable then Siv. Even though most people know Siv, or at least know of Siv. If I were to go streaking through DEF CON, again, most people will remember the 7ft pale ass white guy when he runs past.

*Edit, fixed some typo's, it's way too early for me to be thinking.

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I'm glad to hear the schedule speaker order is being re-arranged.

Also, I know that everyone was busy setting up but it would be great if the villages opened on Thursday. I felt like I spend most of Thursday just waiting for Friday to start.

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

DC Goons and planners, thank you for all you do. As someone who does events professionally I seriously appreciate how well run the event is.

[panadero]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I'm glad to hear the schedule speaker order is being re-arranged.

Also, I know that everyone was busy setting up but it would be great if the villages opened on Thursday. I felt like I spend most of Thursday just waiting for Friday to start.

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

DC Goons and planners, thank you for all you do. As someone who does events professionally I seriously appreciate how well run the event is.

Keep in mind that a lot of Goons, Contest organizers, and Village organizers are generally volunteering at other cons, such as BSides and Blackhat, or enjoying those cons like a normal participant. Those that are holding down the fort on Thursday, like contests in the afternoon, vendor set up, etc... are strung tight as it is. Opening for a FULL day of all activities on Thursday is difficult to do. In order to have a full day of events on Thursday, would probably mean set up on Wednesday afternoon, ummm...probably not gonna happen. Let's not forget also, that most people have already been in Vegas since probably Tuesday, and even 3 full days at DEF CON is LONNNGGGG. Adding that full extra day on Thursday makes it LONNGGERRRRR...

[Tribalsoul]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Oh and I agree with the musical diversity. If I have new equipment by next year, I'd be happy to do a psychobilly/rock/punk set.

Make sure you apply next year. Who knows what will happen?

That being said, there hasn't been a large demand from the survey we (A&E) put out for live music. There's still a chance to get your input in though!

https://forum.defcon.org/showthread.php?t=13624

[Whiskey]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

Keep in mind that a lot of Goons, Contest organizers, and Village organizers are generally volunteering at other cons, such as BSides and Blackhat, or enjoying those cons like a normal participant. Those that are holding down the fort on Thursday, like contests in the afternoon, vendor set up, etc... are strung tight as it is. Opening for a FULL day of all activities on Thursday is difficult to do. In order to have a full day of events on Thursday, would probably mean set up on Wednesday afternoon, ummm...probably not gonna happen. Let's not forget also, that most people have already been in Vegas since probably Tuesday, and even 3 full days at DEF CON is LONNNGGGG. Adding that full extra day on Thursday makes it LONNGGERRRRR...

I get that. It just feels spread out on Thursday with DC 101 happening at 10 a.m. and the scattered talks in the afternoon.

I'll fill out the music survey when I've had some time to assemble some realistic suggestions. Thanks for the info.

[Kungfu Redneck]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

How about wife/spouse events during the day? While I was off in the Vally of Geekdom, as my wife calls it, she was a little lonely and bored at the hotel longing for some one to hang out with. If you have wife/spouse events she could hang out with them and I could enjoy the classes/talks.

also maybe a half price wife pass. I am cheap and didn't want to pay the 180 for her to get in.

Just a thought.

[TheCotMan]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

How about wife/spouse events during the day? While I was off in the Vally of Geekdom, as my wife calls it, she was a little lonely and bored at the hotel longing for some one to hang out with. If you have wife/spouse events she could hang out with them and I could enjoy the classes/talks.

also maybe a half price wife pass. I am cheap and didn't want to pay the 180 for her to get in.

Just a thought.

This has been discussed on one form or another in the past...
* Reduced price for kids
* Reduced price for first-timers
* Reduced Price for "wives" (spouse)
* Reduced price for [some group]

Most counter arguments go like this:

"Then everyone will claim to be a [some group] and want the reduced price."

And for the suggestion of "Reduced price for wives" that has been suggested (a long time ago) and was considered to be a bit problematic:
1) Implies the "wives" are the non-hacker, non-techies, and that will stir up all kinds of ire among many people on the forums (We have at least one Goon who is a woman, and more technically inclined than her husband, and she roped her husband into attending with her. Now he is a goon, too.)
2) Implies that gay, married men have "wives" or would not be entitled to such a suggestion.

No, I am not assuming that these above two complications were items that were part of your suggestion. [To be explicit: you mentioned wives/spouses.] What I am saying is the above counter-arguments are things which have come up to counter the suggestion of reduced prices for [some group].

Even with marriage, if you consider polygamy and combine with homosexual and heterosexual people, then you could have one person show up with 30 friends, and claim they are all married, and the other 30 deserve the reduced price.

If you have ideas on how to address these counter arguments, I am happy to read them. :-)

(For everyone else, no need to cry sexism and and take us off into a tangent discussion unrelated to this. I'm not saying you can't, but it would make it easier for me if we didn't. If you find you really must comment on items of sexism, or failure to address concerns for homosexual males, you can still reply, but I will probably cut thier post and your replies into a new thread for you to do battle, and to keep this one on-track.)

Thanks!

[Pwncess]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

How about wife/spouse events during the day? While I was off in the Vally of Geekdom, as my wife calls it, she was a little lonely and bored at the hotel longing for some one to hang out with. If you have wife/spouse events she could hang out with them and I could enjoy the classes/talks.

also maybe a half price wife pass. I am cheap and didn't want to pay the 180 for her to get in.

Just a thought.

I am a wife who wasn't sure I could find anything to do (or understand) at Defcon. We took the chance and bought me a pass anyway, and I found a ton of stuff to do/see/people to talk to and who are willing to help me learn about the things that do interest me. That was a couple of years ago and now I am the one planning our trips to Vegas every summer.

I guess what I'm getting at is you never know if you don't try it out. I bet your wife could find plenty to do if only she (and you) shell out the money and give it a chance. If she doesn't like it at least you gave it a shot and $180 isn't really that much in the long run especially in Las Vegas.

[blakdayz]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

I am a wife who wasn't sure I could find anything to do (or understand) at Defcon. We took the chance and bought me a pass anyway, and I found a ton of stuff to do/see/people to talk to and who are willing to help me learn about the things that do interest me. That was a couple of years ago and now I am the one planning our trips to Vegas every summer.

I guess what I'm getting at is you never know if you don't try it out. I bet your wife could find plenty to do if only she (and you) shell out the money and give it a chance. If she doesn't like it at least you gave it a shot and $180 isn't really that much in the long run especially in Las Vegas.

I bring my wife every year. She is not a geek, or technical and she has a blast [she hangs out in the contest area]. I can say that we don't have 'wife' discounts at the moment. My superiors would have to comment on any future prices.

[Deviant Ollam]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

i'll add to the commentary about how i feel that a Wives/Girlfriends event tied to DEFCON is probably a poor idea.

once you start things like this it just plays into the notion that there are distinct "outsiders" who get "dragged to DEFCON" but can't really enjoy themselves there.

there already is a "hopeless outsiders" event for "people who don't get DEFCON" ... it's called the entire rest of the damn city. Las Vegas is America's playground. if your spouse or significant other cannot find something else fun to do in Las Vegas then they are possibly too imbecilic to be with you, a hacker. And they are almost CERTAINLY too lame for it to be a good idea for us to cater to them with a special area or gathering at DEFCON.

phew. i need to step back and take a breath because i'm sounding mean.

what it boils down to for me is this: DEFCON is a hacker convention. we are a community of hackers. suggestions like that one are tantamount to creating a "non-hackers" area at DEFCON.

[Chris]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

i'll add to the commentary about how i feel that a Wives/Girlfriends event tied to DEFCON is probably a poor idea.

once you start things like this it just plays into the notion that there are distinct "outsiders" who get "dragged to DEFCON" but can't really enjoy themselves there.

there already is a "hopeless outsiders" event for "people who don't get DEFCON" ... it's called the entire rest of the damn city. Las Vegas is America's playground. if your spouse or significant other cannot find something else fun to do in Las Vegas then they are possibly too imbecilic to be with you, a hacker. And they are almost CERTAINLY too lame for it to be a good idea for us to cater to them with a special area or gathering at DEFCON.

phew. i need to step back and take a breath because i'm sounding mean.

what it boils down to for me is this: DEFCON is a hacker convention. we are a community of hackers. suggestions like that one are tantamount to creating a "non-hackers" area at DEFCON.

This.
This.
100% this!

[Whiteb0rd]

Re: Welcome to DEF CON 21! How would you make DEF CON 22 even better?

How about wife/spouse events during the day?

When I started coming to the con (DC8) we were still at the Alexis Park. The only areas you needed a badge for were the talks, and other official con events. Pool, bar, hotel lobby, etc., were all open to all, and there was a LOT of activity in those areas, good times had by all who didn't end up getting duct taped to a tree or something.

Additionally, there was a large group of (mostly) guys who had been attending, and continued to attend, for years, who brought their SOs. If the SOs wanted to hang out by the pool, come to parties, etc., it was all good. They typically spent most of their days crawling the strip, shopping and doing the other typical Vegas things.

Bottom line, we don't need to change the con to cater to non hackers. There is plenty to do for those folks, either on the periphery, or in Vegas at large.

I'd suggest you buy your wife a badge and let her experience it, you might be surprised when she finds something that interests her, and the day goes past in an instant.


NOW, on the other hand, I do wish there was a manageable way to have badges for SOs, perhaps sold only in conjunction with a full badge, for the after hour social events. It would make for a logistical nightmare at registration, and (as a redshirt goon) I don't even want to think about the problems it would cause us, but it would be nice to be able to bring your spouse to the social events in the evenings without paying the full freight. Not practical, but nice.



-WB