How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

[dc0de]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

Perhaps not so much a suggestion here as a query that COULD lead to a suggestion:

P&T is a GREAT venue for larger talks. Great sightlines, wonderful sound amplification in general. Also the seats are hella comfy. Only possible complaint could be the smallish size of the projection screen. Are we going to have access to a theater like it for next year?

P&T only sat 1377 people. With it's stairs and seating, it takes approximately twice as long to fill than any other room. For the larger talks, it means that most of the people that want to see it will be standing in line in the hallway, waiting for someone to leave.

I personally hope that we do NOT have any theater options in the new venue.

[dc0de]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

I was also not impressed when some goons were yelling "make a hole" "MAKE A FUCKING HOLE!!!!!" when someone was walking some equipment through a crowd that really had nowhere to go. Fuck I wanted to throatpunch a red shirt when they were screaming "MAKE A FUCKING HOLE" in my face as I'm already nuts to butts with in the black shirt log jam.


Chill the fuck out goons.

I'm sorry your experience wasn't as good as you expected.

Goons are charged with making sure that the property (read hotel), DEFCON, and attendees have a good time. If you had noted, while that was going on, most of the people moved out of the way to make room for the equipment and personnel that were coming through. Some of the time, this yelling has to do with issues that you don't know are going on, and that "equipment" is urgently needed somewhere else.

If you can suggest a better way to get a large crowd's attention and getting them to move without shouting, the Goons would be very appreciative. However, the Goons have tried many different approaches, and the one that works best (currently) is to shout.

Lastly, a throatpunch a Red Shirt would be a very bad idea. I can guarantee that you would not appreciate the outcome.

thanks for your comments.

[TCP_PUNK]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

If you can suggest a better way to get a large crowd's attention and getting them to move without shouting, the Goons would be very appreciative. However, the Goons have tried many different approaches, and the one that works best (currently) is to shout.

Lastly, a throatpunch a Red Shirt would be a very bad idea. I can guarantee that you would not appreciate the outcome.

thanks for your comments.

It's not the shouting that's the issue, it's how you guys talk to people. I would imagine an respectful request (even when yelling) would make it easier for you guys to get through. People don't want to move quickly when they are being treated like shit. I like how you completely disregarded the first part of my post.

[TheCotMan]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

I like how you completely disregarded the first part of my post.

People often reply on topics for which they are a party, or know something about as an observer. It is very likely that dcode was in the group of people clearing hallways one or more times in the history of DEF CON, so he felt some comfort in speaking with authority on that topic.

Not responding to the all topics/issues does not mean he does not care, it more likely means he has not comment on something he did not observe, or was not involved with trying. There is no reason for you to become less polite to those providing some answers while condemning others for not being polite.

Attacking a person that provided an answer to part of an issue is like killing the messenger, but worse, and will make others less interested in answering other questions.

You have done a good thing by providing issues (aggressive yelling for badges, yelling in hallways) and have offered a suggestion to address one issue (being more polite, and less yelling for badges.)

If you have more suggestions on how to address this or other issues, please let us know. If you know of other issues with suggestions, please bring those up too.

I was not there this year. I can't comment on what you saw, motivation, reasons, justification either. Maybe she had a reason. Maybe she didn't. I'm not ignoring your comment or suggestion. All of the comments and suggestions in this thread will get broken down and put into a report to department heads.

Lack of response here does not mean nobody cares.

Hope this helps,
-Cot

[fiveatoms]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

Background: This was my first DEF CON. I was thoroughly briefed on what to expect, so I felt like I was well-prepared for the mayhem. Overall feedback: A++++++1! great success & looking forward to next year.

Key to specific feedback:
(+) = positive feedback for warmfuzzy purposes, no followup necessary.
(-) = criticism, followed by suggestions to improve unless otherwise specified.

Thanks for taking these comments!

General:

+ I was happily surprised that I was very rarely offended by con stank. People seem to be following at least the 1 part of 3-2-1 (the only part that affects me when other people don't follow it - ha). Caviat: I didn't spend any time in the CTF room.
- Vape smoke. Damn. Better than real cigarettes but I still don't want to breathe that in all the time.
+ I am a fan of the special design on the hotel keys. It made my stay there even more festive.
+ soma fm playing in the chillout lounge was fucking fantastic.
+ Food in the cafe was very good (contrary to what we were told in the DEF CON 101 track on Thursday morning...) albeit expensive. But I was willing and prepared to pay for the convenience.
+ I like DEF CON sponsor-free. Please keep it that way.
- Having the talks piped to hotel room TVs is a good idea, but I wanted to suggest showing the same content in a larger room in the con space as "overflow" for larger talks. This would help more people see popular talks (even if they're not staying in the hotel). Planning to do this next year would help with a few problems (1) overflowing talks with huge lines and many disappointed people not getting to see what they wanted (2) what to do with all that glorious additional space at Paris/Ballys (3) a good excuse to improve the quality of the broadcast (showing speaker & slides, sound quality, making sure captions work, etc).
- I was not a fan of the shouty redshirt goons. Some of them (one of them?) were shouting at people with no real apparent objective other than hearing themselves talk (before the badge talk in P&T), which to me waters down the importance of the shouting goon. If you are just spewing bullshit disrespect at people for the hell of it, or telling stupid jokes to try to get attention, I'm going to be that much less likely to listen and oblige your request.

Registration:

+ Management of the reg queue was good, but I felt bad for people who had to queue outside in the 100+ F(ucking) degree weather.
- Once I got to the reg counter, the staff had to grab each item individually (badge, batteries, booklet, discs, glasses...) and put them together. This added unnecessary time to the wait. (I realize after reading this entire thread that this is becoming somewhat of a circlejerk, but I might as well pile on with some...) Suggestions: Have a few people on staff preparing stacks of materials, like an assembly line. Maybe throw it all in a DEF CON branded string bag or something? I also like the idea of requiring exact change. Especially for amounts divisible by 20. Or decouple $$ collection & badge distribution entirely.

Villages:

+ Lockpick village, HHV, tamper evident... LUV THEM ALL MOAR PLS K THX
- Lockpick village speaker area did not have a PA system when I was in there. Please fix dis. The talks there were short but awesome.
- HHV and tamper evident village needed more space. I'm not sure if the limitations were only related to space or supplies or what, so I can't really give any suggestion to improve. :( Hopefully it was only space constraints and the new setup next year will fix this.

Tracks/talks/etc:

+ DEF CON 101 was a good idea, in concept. As a n00b I appreciated the thought.
- DEF CON 101 space needs to be larger.
+ I appreciated the speaker goons requesting people to raise hands next to empty seats. This helped somewhat with the overcrowding problem.
- I expected more heckling @ Hacker Jeopardy. What happen? Also, if there is stripping, please let it be equal-opportunity to all genders.

Parties:

+ Variety of parties was great. Thank you to the crazy ass robot army for bringing a great WTF moment to my evening.
- Music at the parties was sort of okaaaay, especially the pool party. Could have done way better.

Vendors:

? What happened to the blackphone booth? Did they leave when it got hacked?
- There were several educational institutions, at least one that had something like 3 long tables, that were completely empty. Why this? I want to buy cool stuff. They didn't appear to be selling anything tangible. (Neither did ghostery, I suppose, but their product is free, they had free ghosts, and they are awesome.)

[dc0de]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

It's not the shouting that's the issue, it's how you guys talk to people. I would imagine an respectful request (even when yelling) would make it easier for you guys to get through. People don't want to move quickly when they are being treated like shit. I like how you completely disregarded the first part of my post.

In our experience, "Make a Hole" works.

I'm open to hearing what we "should" be shouting to make a hole in a large crowd. The words "Make a Hole" seem to work well, they're clear, succinct and direct. They get the attention of the people who aren't paying attention to the people and goings on around them. If you would like for us to say something different, I think that we could all test that out. Bear in mind, that after 4 days of talking to people, after volunteering our personal vacation time, spending our own money to travel to Las Vegas, and working ourselves sick, we will go with the shorter statement that yields the quickest the results.

[admford]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

The words "Make a Hole" seem to work well, they're clear, succinct and direct. They get the attention of the people who aren't paying attention to the people and goings on around them.

I agree. In a way this comes down to herding people around, and it's similar to how a sheepdog herds sheep, they don't ask politely if the sheep will go to one end of a field or not, they bark and nip them to get them moving. A large crowd of people is not very different.

I'm in a wheelchair and even if I ask politely for someone to let me pass, there will be people who ignore me. At that point I will also yell "make a hole", and if that doesn't work, I just run over their feet.

[P33V3]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

I agree. In a way this comes down to herding people around, and it's similar to how a sheepdog herds sheep, they don't ask politely if the sheep will go to one end of a field or not, they bark and nip them to get them moving. A large crowd of people is not very different.

I'm in a wheelchair and even if I ask politely for someone to let me pass, there will be people who ignore me. At that point I will also yell "make a hole", and if that doesn't work, I just run over their feet.

This is a great point. I saw people walk in front of people in wheelchairs and stop to SMS or something else this year multiple times. For every one person who actively listens and may take offense to our yelling there are 10 or more that don't seem to actively listen and are oblivious to it even in the event of a serious issue. And to be clear several times I tried "pardon me" this year and had it summarily ignored.

Now as to the P&T comment above. I certainly understand your angst as we feel it from the other end of the spectrum. We (the red shirts) actually yelled less this year (although Speaker Ops did a fair share of it too). That being said as the Team Lead for the group of Red Shirts at Penn & Teller, I want to point out that we have 5-7 minutes to fill 1,377 seats on 3 levels. We began with asking people to move to the center of each row and fill in every seat, it took us 20 minutes to fill the first talk. This simple request (and I mean request as in no shouting other than to project so everyone could hear) was largely ignored. The second time we filled the room took 10 minutes. All subsequent times took 5-7 minutes. We like yelling even less than you. Frankly after Thursday and Friday my voice was mostly gone. I would happily "request" people do this or that but after you say it 20-30 times per session only to receive a blank stare and be completely ignored, yelling is the only other option.

I, as others have stated will gladly take other suggestions. Just know we have tried multiple ways to accomplish this over the past 22 years (yes I was at Defcon 1 thru 22). If saying "Sphygmomanometer" or anything else will accomplish the task better, then I am game.

[#grind]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

I, as others have stated will gladly take other suggestions. Just know we have tried multiple ways to accomplish this over the past 22 years (yes I was at Defcon 1 thru 22). If saying "Sphygmomanometer" or anything else will accomplish the task better, then I am game.

Would a visual aid help? Maybe if people saw a sign on a pole held by someone reading "MOVING STUFF - PLEASE MAKE SPACE" they could begin preemptively moving out of the way, which would make shouting less necessary. Or sprinkle a "please" in front of "make a hole" every once in a while so it doesn't sound rude, if that's the impression people have.

I say this as someone who has never been bothered much by the "make a hole." I have felt aggressiveness from goons, but I assumed it wasn't personal but because there are so many people acting like drunk zombies in the hallways.

[Snapshot]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

In a similar vein perhaps between presentations the screen at the front of the room and/or sound system could be used to display the need to move to the center of the row and/or indicate empty seats with raised hands.

[TheCotMan]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

In a similar vein perhaps between presentations the screen at the front of the room and/or sound system could be used to display the need to move to the center of the row and/or indicate empty seats with raised hands.

That is something I have not seen tapped at DEF CON, projection between each talk on all screens of information to speed the loading and emptying of speaker tracks.

To keep people interested, such a message could appear for 5 seconds, followed by some of the information that the DCIB (DEF CON Information Booth) has pushed out, or updates about DEF CON Contests or events, or changes to the schedule. In this way, you don't have a static bit of information that everyone reads once, then ignores, but directions followed by information, followed by directions. This would require network drops, or reliable wireless. It would also require collecting newsworthy information and updates to update for the end of each talk.

You have sparked a good idea. Let's see if the different departments that would be needed to make this happen would be able to coordinate to see what else would be required, and if it would be worth the effort; there are many good ideas that compete for limited resources.

Thanks!
-Cot

[admford]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

Regarding seating, as I said earlier that wheelchair and scooter placement was a bit wonky.

Given that the sight lines and the level seating arrangement means that you can't put wheelchairs in the actual rows, it would be possible to widen the center aisle and put a wheelchair position for every two rows.



This would mean that wheelchair users would not be seated either around the walls, or in the back of the room, and since the stage is higher and more or less directly in front of the audience near the center aisle, the sight lines should be good for everyone, and allow better interaction for wheelchair/scooter users.

[TCP_PUNK]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

In our experience, "Make a Hole" works.

I'm open to hearing what we "should" be shouting to make a hole in a large crowd. The words "Make a Hole" seem to work well, they're clear, succinct and direct. They get the attention of the people who aren't paying attention to the people and goings on around them. If you would like for us to say something different, I think that we could all test that out. Bear in mind, that after 4 days of talking to people, after volunteering our personal vacation time, spending our own money to travel to Las Vegas, and working ourselves sick, we will go with the shorter statement that yields the quickest the results.

I feel like I keep repeating myself that it isn't the MAKE A HOLE statement that got me pissed off. Let me spell it out for you.


MAKE A HOLE! = GOOD
MAKE A HOLE PLEASE! = BETTER
MAKE A FUCKING HOLE!!!! = BAD
MAKE A FUCKING HOLE (in my face when I've clearly already moved as much as I can) = WORSE

Maybe you guys should carry whistles?

[TCP_PUNK]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

All of the comments and suggestions in this thread will get broken down and put into a report to department heads.

Lack of response here does not mean nobody cares.

Hope this helps,
-Cot

Thank you, this clears it up.

[admford]

Re: How would you make DEF CON 23 better than DEF CON 22?

Maybe you guys should carry whistles?

Considering the general noise level with music and such, air horns would be better