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  • Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

    This shall be the thread where I post all of my notes from previous years (including all the notes we took this summer) so folk can see the organizers' thoughts and also share their own.

    I'd love your feedback. What worked? What didn't? The new mesh nets in between lanes... did they prevent any stay brass? The camp toilet off to the rear... did anyone use it successfully? (I did, given that I was out there in the desert for 30+ hours) I'd like to improve both of those features next time, along with much else.

    I'll transcribe all of my other notes when I get back home... visiting my parents this weekend at the moment. I'll say that, overall, this was one of the best DEF CON Shoots i've seen and we just keep getting better at things.

    Thank you to to everyone who showed up and participated. You all rock.
    "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
    - Trent Reznor

  • #2
    Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

    in my opening remarks to everyone on each day of the DEF CON Shoot, i go over specific details and important information. i plan to also put this down on a sheet that is posted and freely available at the range. in the past, very helpful folk like CotMan and others have chimed in from the crowd with "what's the policy on [blah]?" type questions and that's been most welcome.

    so here's my set of notes that i currently use, please feel free to help expand this, etc...

    Intro & Background
    Thanks for Coming
    Safety
    - the 4 rules
    - tracer ammo
    - explosive/reactive targets
    - suitable targets
    - what do do if you have a malfunction or hang fire
    - who calls cease fire, what to do
    - staff explanation (yellow vs orange vests)
    Range Schedule
    - sessions
    - break times
    - exactly what to do during a cease-fire
    Cameras and Photo/Video Policy
    - mark your X as needed
    Registration and Info Tent
    - put badges on your back collar or rear of hat, visible from rear
    - what's free and what's not
    - hydrate
    Lanes that Welcome Others
    - how to designate
    - who has guns for folk to try
    - do not fucking shoot for free
    - ask about ammo cost and contribute\
    Any Games and Contests
    - Run & Gun "Hacker War Games"
    Trash and Debris
    - brass policy
    - use trash bags
    - please pack trash bags back to town if you can
    - stack chairs, all else stays where it is
    - latrine available, please don't fuck it up
    One more time on Safety
    - everyone says the 4 rules
    - everyone will obey them and observe the cease fires?
    - great. range goes hot in 10 minutes. enjoy!
    "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
    - Trent Reznor

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

      More notes from during the shoot... i'm just going to start collecting all these notes and ideas here, for myself and for future people to be able to see them.

      * Assemble badges and such before the DEF CON Shoot... ideally back in the world or at least back in the Hotel.

      * lots of thick and thin Sharpies should be available

      * create a "press" category of badge

      * extra sticker or something for 1st time shooters so that both RSOs know who they are and also lanes who are very welcoming of 1st timers can also see that

      * call out the eye/ear warning before lanes going hot, especially for newbies

      * the staff/reg tent should have at least 3 tables just for itself... always need more table space

      * the public sunscreen is good. also maybe public chap stick? it's up to them

      * more LED lights for the canopies at night as dusk draws in

      * dud box or hang fire bucket - i'll construct one at some point

      * a CAC card is not a military ID. only a military ID or someone known to the staff counts as military

      * having a proper fire extinguisher would be good

      * more paracord and such, for so many purposes

      * mark DC Shoot gear with a uniform kind of sticker. shovel/hammer/etc all should be marked

      * consistent type of tape and lots of it, we have a hodgepodge right now

      * clocks and thermometers for reg/info tent and other areas perhaps?

      * public targets... we have some nice spinners and bouncy boxes right now, but i'd love to get more. maybe some donation ones?

      * malfunction table... a place way off to the side where people can clear malfs while keeping the firearm pointed downrange, even while the lane is hot, etc.
      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
      - Trent Reznor

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

        Lanes that Welcome Others
        - how to designate
        - if you have no money you are an OBSERVER (maybe we need OBSERVER badges!)
        - who has guns for folk to try
        - do not fucking shoot for free
        - have cold cash in your outstretched hand before evening THINKING of asking to shoot.

        I got really ripped off this year in my ammo costs. I know maybe you say, "Well why didn't you just ask for money?" Easy. Because there are lots of people walking around and as my guns are not chained to the table I keep my eyes on them constantly. I have 2 eyes and 3 guns so you already know I am seriously distracted. Then after one person shoots another gets up there, picks up a gun, looks in the barrel, waves it around, you know that SORT OF DISTRACTS ME! So I am sorry that I did not have an after-shoot counseling session with you to answer all your questions about the guns I have or your experience shooting them. That does not mean you walk away to another lane and shoot their guns for free too. The first shoot I went to I got ripped off too but I was new and trusted people with my shit. This year I should have known better.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

          Items that were sorely missed this year: Air Horn to designate lane hot, cease fire, etc. Worked well in previous years, especially with all the noise and the ear defenders around. This year, myself and many others were not 100% sure, and kind of asked and looked around to see.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

            Originally posted by Zorlac View Post
            Items that were sorely missed this year: Air Horn
            Agreed, get one that you can pump up. "Airzound" works well off a bike pump
            http://www.amazon.com/Delta-Airzound.../dp/B000ACAMJC

            At least once it went from "giving a speech mode" where my ears were out to "ok range is hot" in a few seconds. I didn't have time for my foam ears to fully expand so I was a little rushed. "going hot in 30 seconds at the sound of the horn" would be my suggestion (followed by air horn)

            Announcing if there will be another slot of shooting during the session before calling a cease fire was helpful. Basically I want to know if I should dump everything I have in mags now, or if I'll have another opportunity coming up.

            I'd still like a side table to put mags, ammo and non gun parts. But I kept my guns on one side of the table and mags on the other, so the RSO's let me load during the breaks. With machine guns this is a necessity.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

              I got really ripped off this year in my ammo costs.
              How about centralizing to a degree...have either a solar/battery powered vending machine for ammunition, or a voucher vending machine - put money in, get a card to give the lane. End of day, the transaction goes in reverse. Is that something that would be useful for next year? I haven't made it to the shoot previously, but it's a priority for me next year, so I can work on getting something like that together.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                Originally posted by t0x0 View Post
                How about centralizing to a degree
                I think something like that has been tried in the past (minus the selling back part). Deviant offered to buy and bring ammo for people that requested it. He fronted the cash, hauled it out, and either the people didn't show or they didn't buy the ammo and he got stuck with ammo he didn't want and a few hundred dollars less in cash.

                If you can get people to front the money ahead of time you can probably find someone to buy it for you without too much of a problem.

                And if I have any extra ammo I try to find a local that is willing to buy the ammo for like 50-75% of what I paid for it.

                Centralizing that may be worth it

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                  Originally posted by astcell View Post
                  Lanes that Welcome Others
                  - how to designate
                  Maybe we should specify this when we register for a lane, and have it posted (or at least have the sign printed and handed out when we get our own badges)

                  Originally posted by astcell View Post
                  - if you have no money you are an OBSERVER (maybe we need OBSERVER badges!)
                  I don't have a good handle on how many observers there were vs. registered shooters. I understand that shooters should register and pay to defray the costs, but I also like being able to include people that otherwise wouldn't shoot.

                  Originally posted by astcell View Post
                  - who has guns for folk to try
                  Maybe also something to add to the Welcome Unfree/Military signs.

                  Originally posted by astcell View Post
                  - who has guns for folk to try
                  - do not fucking shoot for free
                  - have cold cash in your outstretched hand before evening THINKING of asking to shoot.
                  Perhaps a default "price" per round? $.50 pistol / $1.00 Rifle? It doesn't fit everyone, and there will be outliers (.22LR, 50BMG), but I don't want to be quoting people prices, and I've found that most people are more than willing to pony up the money. Deviant has done a great job for the past couple of years telling people during the introduction/safety speech that shooting costs, and be prepared to offer money - I think that we (lane renters) haven't made it easy to quote/pay for shooting for people walking up to us.

                  astcell - your tent always gets swamped with people, and I know how crazy it is to squeeze my way in just to shoot off one round from the Serbu - Mine gets about that bad with the shirts and my group shooting what I bring, not even factoring in Un-Frees trying to shoot. Other than you posting price sheets, I don't see what else you could do.

                  Personally I don't mind spending the money on ammo for new shooters to experience it, and I expect to "donate" a couple hundred rounds to the cause. For me the trouble is the other part you mentioned - oversight and ensuring safe handling of the guns that I brought. I spend 10x more time on that than I do shooting.

                  This year the two Dutch visitors rented a lane and it sat empty for the entire first session on Thursday. When I brought some hardware over there and showed them the basics, they had a blast, offered to pay for everything and to clean up anything that needed to be cleaned. I enjoyed it, but between shirts and instruction, I probably only got to shoot about 20 rounds for the entire day. I'd be willing to stock that tent with some hardware if an RSO was dedicated to safe handling.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                    I would happily offer my services as an RSO, but I'm not certified in any kind (I'm a gunsmith drop-out(because of personal reasons I'd rather explain in a PM)), nor have I been to Defcon yet. So if I make it to DC23, and the shoot returns for DC24, then I'll happily be an RSO so you guys know me atleast

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                      one thing we learned this year that was SO HELPFUL was having one of our yellow-vest staff be the person exclusively in charge of monitoring the clock and handling the regularly-scheduled cease-fires. next year we'll augment that with flags for lanes being cold or hot, a large clock (or clocks) showing the times marked off clearly, etc.

                      that person in the yellow who is in charge of monitoring the time and calling it will use an air horn (i LOVE the pump-up style... that's smart. i had shied away from the air horn this year because we didn't want to ship or fly with a compressed tank) and also making eyes/ears warning announcements.
                      "I'll admit I had an OiNK account and frequented it quite often… What made OiNK a great place was that it was like the world's greatest record store… iTunes kind of feels like Sam Goody to me. I don't feel cool when I go there. I'm tired of seeing John Mayer's face pop up. I feel like I'm being hustled when I visit there, and I don't think their product is that great. DRM, low bit rate, etc... OiNK it existed because it filled a void of what people want."
                      - Trent Reznor

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                        The flag idea is good and goes with "proper" range rules.

                        One thing I'd like to add is having people ask before they shoot at someone else's targets. I brought my AR500 hog target out so the wife and I should shoot at it, and everyone seemed to love blasting at it with green tip milsurp ammo. The fact that the target was to the left of the staff tent means that people were starting to shoot at dangerous angles to hit it- a ricochet should have easily hit people over at the Run and Gun. Had anyone asked, I would have politely told them no, as the steel penetrator in that green tip stuff does horrible things to AR500 steel. It has more craters on it than the surface of the moon now. Thank $DEITY that I was RSO'ing the day someone brought out the .50 BMG...

                        On that note, I'd love to see a long range lane, but the site doesn't really appear to offer shooting past 100 yards.

                        Originally posted by modafinil
                        This year the two Dutch visitors rented a lane and it sat empty for the entire first session on Thursday. When I brought some hardware over there and showed them the basics, they had a blast, offered to pay for everything and to clean up anything that needed to be cleaned. I enjoyed it, but between shirts and instruction, I probably only got to shoot about 20 rounds for the entire day. I'd be willing to stock that tent with some hardware if an RSO was dedicated to safe handling.
                        If Deviant want to go in that direction, I could certainly handle that... I should have all of my NRA instructor ratings by next year. With the concern over inexperienced people firing on full auto, it would probably be prudent having someone to make sure that the shooters are being safe.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                          Originally posted by Modafinil View Post
                          This year the two Dutch visitors rented a lane and it sat empty for the entire first session on Thursday. When I brought some hardware over there and showed them the basics, they had a blast, offered to pay for everything and to clean up anything that needed to be cleaned. I enjoyed it, but between shirts and instruction, I probably only got to shoot about 20 rounds for the entire day. I'd be willing to stock that tent with some hardware if an RSO was dedicated to safe handling.
                          An interesting idea. I wound up pulling RO duty for three shifts, which means my guns sat there unfired for the majority of their time at the shoot. I would have been happy to let someone shoot them if a trusted person was there to watch over them while I was doing my RO thing.

                          To expand on modafnil's concept:

                          If we had a lane reserved for "non-free" or "I don't have any guns but I want to check this shit out" or whatever, with a dedicated RSO, then people who were volunteering (or just wanted to be nice), could drop some hardware off there for people to shoot. Anyone who wanted to could go to that lane and pay a few dollars for some ammo and one-on-one time with an RO.

                          Potential problems I see with this idea (and some proposed solutions):
                          1. Keeping track of hardware. The potential exists for someone to walk off with a firearm, especially if there are a lot of firearms on the table.

                          Solution: Limit the number of firearms donated for a given session. An arbitrary limit placed on donated hardware makes it easier to keep track of. Perhaps 2 handguns, 2 rifles, and a shotgun is a good place to start the discussion. If we make sure that there is only ever one person at the firing line at a time, it shouldn't be onerous to keep track of 5 items.

                          2. Ammo. What if ammo runs out for a particular firearm? What if people prefer that only brass cased ammo runs in their firearm? What if a particular firearm doesn't cycle BRAND X? Etc, etc, etc.

                          Solution: Person donating firearm also provides ammo, RO collects donations to defer cost of ammo. (Solution introduces other problems, addressed further on) Additional problem of which ammo goes with which firearm...

                          3. Collection of donations. Assuming that each session will have at least two people donating firearms, donations will not necessarily be evenly split if one firearm is more popular than another. Someone has to keep track of which donations are for which firearm, which creates overhead.

                          Solution: Perhaps a box next to each firearm? Shooter drops donation in box, is then entitled to one magazine with that firearm. RO only needs to confirm that donation enters box, firearm owner retrieves donations for his firearm(s) at end of session.

                          4. Need a dedicated RSO. I think this year the goal was 4 RSOs per shooting session. If we dedicate one of those 4, the workload on the other 3 goes up.

                          Solution: Not sure, because I don't know if we had "extra" ROs that were turned away, or if we were struggling to fill the necessary roles. I know that I would almost prefer to watch a new person shoot than to shoot myself, so I would happily volunteer my time to man a "lose your gun virginity here" booth, but others may feel differently.

                          I think that's a good start for now... Discussion?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Ideas, Notes, Feedback, & Planning

                            Originally posted by flirzan View Post
                            Potential problems I see with this idea (and some proposed solutions):
                            1. Keeping track of hardware. The potential exists for someone to walk off with a firearm, especially if there are a lot of firearms on the table.

                            Solution: Limit the number of firearms donated for a given session. An arbitrary limit placed on donated hardware makes it easier to keep track of. Perhaps 2 handguns, 2 rifles, and a shotgun is a good place to start the discussion. If we make sure that there is only ever one person at the firing line at a time, it shouldn't be onerous to keep track of 5 items.
                            Yep. If we need to have more, then they should remain cased below the table.

                            Originally posted by flirzan View Post
                            2. Ammo. What if ammo runs out for a particular firearm? What if people prefer that only brass cased ammo runs in their firearm? What if a particular firearm doesn't cycle BRAND X? Etc, etc, etc.

                            Solution: Person donating firearm also provides ammo, RO collects donations to defer cost of ammo. (Solution introduces other problems, addressed further on) Additional problem of which ammo goes with which firearm...
                            And anyone lending/donating the firearm should expect that all kinds of crap might get pushed through their toys; I do.


                            Originally posted by flirzan View Post
                            3. Collection of donations. Assuming that each session will have at least two people donating firearms, donations will not necessarily be evenly split if one firearm is more popular than another. Someone has to keep track of which donations are for which firearm, which creates overhead.

                            Solution: Perhaps a box next to each firearm? Shooter drops donation in box, is then entitled to one magazine with that firearm. RO only needs to confirm that donation enters box, firearm owner retrieves donations for his firearm(s) at end of session.
                            Makes sense, or perhaps just having zip-lock baggies of ammo that people buy. I can bring the baggies, and people donating/selling/providing ammo for their gun can just bag them up and sharpie the price on each bag. Helps solve the issue in #2 above of finicky feeders and steel cases.


                            Originally posted by flirzan View Post
                            4. Need a dedicated RSO. I think this year the goal was 4 RSOs per shooting session. If we dedicate one of those 4, the workload on the other 3 goes up.

                            Solution: Not sure, because I don't know if we had "extra" ROs that were turned away, or if we were struggling to fill the necessary roles. I know that I would almost prefer to watch a new person shoot than to shoot myself, so I would happily volunteer my time to man a "lose your gun virginity here" booth, but others may feel differently.
                            Maybe shifts for volunteers; people can tag in and relieve the previous person. Might suck if nobody relieves you.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Was an RSO this past year and happy to do so again for DC23.

                              1) I would like to see better "marking" of lanes so that I am better aware of the shooter's experience.

                              2) If there are folks that don't have much experience, I'd prefer to group those lanes together. That allows us to focus RSO resources into that area. While I'm comfortable running multiple lanes of experience shooters, I'd like a more 1on1 focus for beginners.

                              3) I think it would be good to group the "don't photo me" folks also. Last year the "x" folks were spread around and kept getting caught in the background. Putting them at one end (maybe with a screen) could fix that issue.

                              4) We provide RSOs for the shoot, should we also make instructors available? I'm also a certified instructor and would be fine staffing a "beginner's tent". Shooters that aren't experienced/comfortable could come to that tent for a quick intro to safety/shooting.

                              Had a good time at the shoot last year and really looking forward to DC23.
                              Last edited by blocked; March 7th, 2015, 12:39.

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